“Breaking Away: The Case for Secession”

[Heracleum Persicum]

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“ And it’s not gonna be because there will be enough people in the U.S. Congress to legislate it.
It won’t happen.
It will be defacto.
Ya know, you’ll have a gold standard when the paper standard fails and we’re getting awfully close to that.
And people will have to resort to taking care of themselves.
So when conditions breakdown, ya know, there’s gonna be an alternative.
And I think that’s what we’re witnessing.”





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[manolo]

HP,

In our part of the world it's Scotland that's going!

Alex.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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HP,

In our part of the world it's Scotland that's going!

Alex.

.

Was in Edinburgh past summer for a wedding .. nice city centre, nice people too

As long as Oil price stays low, Scotland stays where it is


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[Nonc Hilaire]

HP,

In our part of the world it's Scotland that's going!

Alex.

Not quite on point. What Paul is talking about is the states circumventing federal control with state statutes. Like Alaska legalizing recreational use of marijuana the other day.

I started a thread on this a couple months ago. It's a trend which is catching on in the US. The only traditional US state secession movements are in Texas and Hawaii, and both are way out on the whacko fringe.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

HP,

In our part of the world it's Scotland that's going!

Alex.

Not quite on point. What Paul is talking about is the states circumventing federal control with state statutes. Like Alaska legalizing recreational use of marijuana the other day.

I started a thread on this a couple months ago. It's a trend which is catching on in the US. The only traditional US state secession movements are in Texas and Hawaii, and both are way out on the whacko fringe.

There does come a point that this erosion of cooperation between the federal and state levels will make it hard to argue against the more formal secessionists.

[Simple Minded]

HP,

In our part of the world it's Scotland that's going!

Alex.

Not quite on point. What Paul is talking about is the states circumventing federal control with state statutes. Like Alaska legalizing recreational use of marijuana the other day.

I started a thread on this a couple months ago. It's a trend which is catching on in the US. The only traditional US state secession movements are in Texas and Hawaii, and both are way out on the whacko fringe.

There does come a point that this erosion of cooperation between the federal and state levels will make it hard to argue against the more formal secessionists.

Amen. Unfunded Federal mandates will be the straw that breaks the camels back (apologies to Azari).

One would think it could be done numerically. Tax $ sent from state to DC vs. Fed $ received from DC to state.

Other than those with a victim mentality, who does not want to control their destiny?

[manolo]

HP,

In our part of the world it's Scotland that's going!

Alex.

Not quite on point. What Paul is talking about is the states circumventing federal control with state statutes. Like Alaska legalizing recreational use of marijuana the other day.

I started a thread on this a couple months ago. It's a trend which is catching on in the US. The only traditional US state secession movements are in Texas and Hawaii, and both are way out on the whacko fringe.

Nonc,

Maybe the analogy does hold. Both Scotland and Wales have devolved from the union to the extent that they can alter some laws from the whole UK. For example Scotland has just changed gun law which will now be different from that in England. Wales has different ways of delivering health care from England. There are variations also in education, university fees etc.

One difference may be that in our union the devolution has been made with parliamentary approval, whereas the US seems to have a level of permanent rancour between some states and the federal government?

Alex.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Thanks for the elucidation, Alex. Not many details about foreign social services are published here, unless they are horror stories.

The theme is the US federal government is not very responsive to the public, so state governments are passing laws people want in direct conflict with federal law. This is a new trend the federal government caused by loosing people's trust, by overreaching and by overspending.

Marriage, drug laws and minimum wage are the most active issues.

[manolo]

Thanks for the elucidation, Alex. Not many details about foreign social services are published here, unless they are horror stories.

The theme is the US federal government is not very responsive to the public, so state governments are passing laws people want in direct conflict with federal law. This is a new trend the federal government caused by loosing people's trust, by overreaching and by overspending.

Marriage, drug laws and minimum wage are the most active issues.

Nonc,

It is difficult to understand the ways of the US without living there and it must be the same the other way around. There are deep themes about tax and spend, which indeed seem to be the themes about government everywhere.

For us Euros it is almost inconceivable that folks wouldn't want affordable healthcare, but the indignant reaction to this from the Americans is palpable, even over 6000 miles of ocean!

Two nations (if the US is a nation) divided by a common language.

Alex.

[Simple Minded]

Nonc,

It is difficult to understand the ways of the US without living there and it must be the same the other way around......

For us Euros it is almost inconceivable that folks wouldn't want affordable healthcare, but the indignant reaction to this from the Americans is palpable, even over 6000 miles of ocean!

Two nations (if the US is a nation) divided by a common language.

Alex.

Alex,

It is no surprise that the person who has never tasted chocolate ice cream is adamant that vanilla ice cream tastes better than chocolate.

I guess most of us mistake all that we choose to see for all that exists. At least "we" as a group have that going for "us."

Ford vs. Chevy....

Better the devil you know...

Poll any large population with a question that can be answered with two polar opposite answers, and it is not at all surprising that both answers occur close to 50% of the time.

I think of all the discussions I have had with my British, Canadian, French, and German friends, and in each nationality, at least 50% from each nation will say health care in the US is immensely better and more affordable than health care in their own countries. Of course, they each say that anyone from their country who disagrees with them is an ideeo (durian).


If either party in the US really had the goal of improving health care and making health care more affordable, they would de-restrict human health care to the same extent as veterinary health care. Or simply allow veterinarians to legally treat humans.

In over 20 years, I have never had to wait more than 24 hours to schedule a vet appoint, and that was simply by calling one vet. Three phone calls would probably cut that time to less than 6 hours. My dog recently had stem cell therapy at a very affordable price. My vet has allowed me to watch him perform operations.

MSM, lawyers, politicians, and special interests.....

[Typhoon]

o-Zo4AVL7AE

[manolo]

In over 20 years, I have never had to wait more than 24 hours to schedule a vet appoint, and that was simply by calling one vet. Three phone calls would probably cut that time to less than 6 hours. My dog recently had stem cell therapy at a very affordable price. My vet has allowed me to watch him perform operations.
MSM, lawyers, politicians, and special interests.....

SM,

Our opinions can be coloured by personal experience as well as hearsay. Here are some of my personal experiences of the British NHS.

1. Time taken to schedule an appointment with my doctor's surgery. Phone at 9am, see the doctor at 10.30am the same day.
2. Arriving unannounced at the surgery (with pain). See the doctor in 15 minutes.
3. Arriving unannounced at the local ER, local hospital, with rectal bleeding. Time to be put in a bed in the observation ward: 15 minutes. Time to having an operation: 12 hours.
4. Falling off my motorcycle on a moorland road. Time to being helicoptered into a specialist unit at a major hospital 25 miles away: 40 minutes.
5. My dentist spots a lump on my tongue. Time to appointment with the dental hospital in a nearby city: the consultant's secretary phones me next day, appointment in 24 hours.
6. Cost of my medications (required on a permanent basis) and all the appointments and surgery. Nothing to me at the point of use.

My experience of private medicine (BUPA).

1. Time for an appointment and examination by a general surgeon: 7 days and a cost of £70.
2. Cost of a minor operation by the surgeon in a private hospital: £325. As it happens there was an unfortunate complication after the op and I needed NHS care. BUPA refunded my money for the op.

So, those are my actual recent experiences of the NHS and private healthcare in Britain. I'm sure you can guess that I am not unsatisfied and wouldn't change for a slower or less reliable healthcare system than the NHS. Our private healthcare wasn't bad either.

Alex.

PS, Apologies for thread drift.

[noddy]

why would scotland want to give up the socialist wonderland then ?

[Simple Minded]

SM,

Our opinions can be coloured by personal experience as well as hearsay. Here are some of my personal experiences of the British NHS.........

So, those are my actual recent experiences of the NHS and private healthcare in Britain. I'm sure you can guess that I am not unsatisfied and wouldn't change for a slower or less reliable healthcare system than the NHS. Our private healthcare wasn't bad either.

Alex.

PS, Apologies for thread drift.

Alex,

No apologies needed. I would not call your personal experiences invalid, anymore than I would call the catalog of opposite experiences listed by some of your fellow country men invalid.

The part I find laughable is when Fred extrapolates his personal experience with good doctor/hospital/insurance company or bad doctor/hospital/insurance company to an entire nation. Sounds kinda like Fred is either a racist, a nationalist, a xenophobe, or Fred is on a quest for power, doesn't it? Of course, if you ask Fred, he will say he is compassionate.

Personal experience is subjective. Personal cost determines perspective. Always has been, always will be. The government that promises to rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

Oddly enough, Paul is the name of the Englishman who after years of quoting Marx, balked at my request to teach his daughter to memorize his favorite quote from Marx. The idea of his daughter becoming just another Peter gave him pause. So far, that pause has lasted over 4 years.

I doubt people will change anytime soon.

Paraphrasing the most brilliant exchange I have ever witnessed at OTNOT:
Affordable health care. What's not to like?
Someone's else's definition of "affordable." Someone else's definition of "health." Someone else's definition of "care."

[Simple Minded]

why would scotland want to give up the socialist wonderland then ?

Since they don't have the "freedom" to prevent Alex from owning a motorcycle, they might be getting tired of having the "freedom" of being "forced" to pay for Alex's "free" healthcare when Alex gets injured exercising his "freedom" to ride a motorcycle as fast as he wants?

Maybe they are as stupid as most Americans or Portuguese seem to be?

Hard to say with those Scots....... they're different from "us" ya know......

[manolo]

Personal experience is subjective. Personal cost determines perspective. Always has been, always will be. The government that promises to rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

SM,

One small strength of my own case study is that the positive results came from a wide variety of medical experiences, with GP, ER, Dentist, Consultant and BUPA. This, to me, seemed like more than a coincidence.

Oddly enough, Paul is the name of the Englishman who after years of quoting Marx, balked at my request to teach his daughter to memorize his favorite quote from Marx. The idea of his daughter becoming just another Peter gave him pause. So far, that pause has lasted over 4 years.

Yes, I too went to great lengths to avoid pushing my own views onto our daughter. Much better that she finds her own way. As it happens she now does good work with the moral sense that I admire, and has already achieved much more than I could have imagined for the cause that I most respect.

Alex.

[manolo]

why would scotland want to give up the socialist wonderland then ?

Since they don't have the "freedom" to prevent Alex from owning a motorcycle, they might be getting tired of having the "freedom" of being "forced" to pay for Alex's "free" healthcare when Alex gets injured exercising his "freedom" to ride a motorcycle as fast as he wants?

Hey guys,

There is a serious point here. The Scottish assembly is pushing through some legislation to ban unlicensed airguns in Scotland and make Scots buy licences for airguns they already own, probably involving police paperwork.

It's not happening in England so far, but my libertarian streak is itching. My hobbies include motorcycles and airguns!

Too much government.

Alex.

[Simple Minded]

Personal experience is subjective. Personal cost determines perspective. Always has been, always will be. The government that promises to rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

SM,

One small strength of my own case study is that the positive results came from a wide variety of medical experiences, with GP, ER, Dentist, Consultant and BUPA. This, to me, seemed like more than a coincidence.


Alex.

Alex,

You are misreading me. Hopefully not intentionally. I said nothing about your experience being a coincidence. I believe you accurately report your own experiences as accurately as everyone else.

It is our willingness to assume and generalize about aspects of reality of which we are ignorant that is one of humanity's most interesting traits. It should be no more a surprise if I sound ignorant to you when discussing health care in the UK, than it would be for you to sound ignorant to me when discussing health care in the US.

As the Redneck Zen Maser would say "Fred said more than he knew!"

Another trait that "we" have going for "us." I think the medical term is Joe Bidenism..... or maybe that is the religious affiliation..... I forget which.

[manolo]

Personal experience is subjective. Personal cost determines perspective.

SM,

I will politely disagree. Personal experience is not subjective when reporting objective fact. How we feel about the facts is subjective, but not the facts.

Of course, one person's report of facts (such as an NHS waiting time) are useful only as an individual case study. The contribution that a single case study can make is strong as an exception to a universal claim. So, if a person claimed that the NHS is always slow and British private healthcare is always expensive a case study can be used to falsify that universal claim.

There is another point about my experiences. The prices I quoted for BUPA healthcare came from the price list at the time, so I could say with some confidence that they did not apply only to me, but to any cash customer approaching BUPA for the same procedures that I had.

There is interesting philosophical logic behind our present chat, which (to me) is a pleasure of posting and reading on the internet.

Alex.

PS - Another apology for thread drift from the OP subject.

[Simple Minded]

Personal experience is subjective. Personal cost determines perspective.

SM,

I will politely disagree. Personal experience is not subjective when reporting objective fact. How we feel about the facts is subjective, but not the facts.

Of course, one person's report of facts (such as an NHS waiting time) are useful only as an individual case study. The contribution that a single case study can make is strong as an exception to a universal claim. So, if a person claimed that the NHS is always slow and British private healthcare is always expensive a case study can be used to falsify that universal claim.

There is another point about my experiences. The prices I quoted for BUPA healthcare came from the price list at the time, so I could say with some confidence that they did not apply only to me, but to any cash customer approaching BUPA for the same procedures that I had.

There is interesting philosophical logic behind our present chat, which (to me) is a pleasure of posting and reading on the internet.

Alex.

PS - Another apology for thread drift from the OP subject.

Alex,

I agree. Discussing the difference of opinion between Fred and Joe's objective facts is enjoyable. I have no trouble believing that you and my other UK friends who have diametrically opposed opinions on "affordable health care" are all correct. Hell, even democrats and republicans have differences of opinion. When it comes to describing personal experience, no one is objective. As for using statistics to prove objective facts..... Shirley, we all know they are beyond dispute.

Someone else's definition of "affordable," "health," or "care" is always going to be subjective. Deciding which variables to measure is subjective.

Shorter waiting times, and more "affordable health care" vs. working longer in order to pay more to purchase food, clothes, shoes, gasoline, housing, etc. due to the hidden taxes that actually pay for the "affordable health care" is another discussion... with even more subjective cherry picking of variables to measure.

A few years back, I was riding down the road in my English buddy's full size Chevy pickup.
He says "I always thought that Americans who bought full size pickups were absolute idiots. They are so big, they suck so much gasoline. No one needs any vehicle that big!"
I thought "Typical Paul. This is gonna be good."
"But now that I own one, I think these things are great. I can put several 4' x 8' sheets of plywood in the back. Put more stuff on top of that and still close the tailgate. I can't believe everyone does not own a full size truck! And gasoline is so inexpensive over here it is amazing. Everything is so inexpensive over here."
I thought "I've heard this about a dozen times from French co-workers."
I could not resist. "You know Paul, when the French start talking like that, I tell them they are becoming Americans, and that really pisses them off. But, since I don't want to piss you off, I won't say that. But, you I think, are becoming French!"
He laughed.

Focusing on the "objective facts" that makes one's life worth living seems sensible to me mate!

[manolo]

SM,

I can say from experience that driving a Yank motor down English country lanes is not a matter of subjectivity (except for the fear or lack of it). When it don't fit, it don't fit.

The motor in question was a Mustang Mach 10,and would have been a doozy on 'Two Lane Blacktop', but in rural Dorset it was a fat bird in a very tight dress.

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/imag ... hspart=avg


We seem to have touched on the notions or subjective and objective quite a few times on here. There is good philosophy to be had in there.

Alex.

[Simple Minded]

SM,

I can say from experience that driving a Yank motor down English country lanes is not a matter of subjectivity (except for the fear or lack of it). When it don't fit, it don't fit.

The motor in question was a Mustang Mach 10,and would have been a doozy on 'Two Lane Blacktop', but in rural Dorset it was a fat bird in a very tight dress.

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/imag ... hspart=avg


We seem to have touched on the notions or subjective and objective quite a few times on here. There is good philosophy to be had in there.

Alex.

My older brother still has a 1969 Mustang Mach I that he bought in 1972. His pride & joy. His marriage did not last as long as his relationship with that car.

objective... subjective.... imagination...... reality..... projection... proclaiming one's own viewpoint to be the only valid one..... thinking those who disagree with oneself are wrong, ignorant, or malicious...... "knowing" the other guy needs your "help/guidance/wisdom/compassion/instruction..."

people are nothing if not entertaining and amazing! Another thing "we," "us," and "them" have in common!

At times, even God must think "F**k me! Even I'm not that cocky & arrogant!"

[Nonc Hilaire]

At times, even God must think "F**k me! Even I'm not that cocky & arrogant!"

Don't be too sure. God drives a '68 Camaro.

[Typhoon]

A Frack Too Far

Yearnings to tap gas threaten to split a state in two

[Simple Minded]

A Frack Too Far

Yearnings to tap gas threaten to split a state in two

Not at all surprising. The Albany area, and the NYC area have very little in common ideologically with most of the rest of the state.

Very similar to central CA and the coastal areas.