This Jewish Boy Is Going to Buy a Gun

[Doc]

Saturday Morning a horrible event occurred. At least 11 people ended up dead in the last US city I would have imagined something like this could happen.

This happened after years of violence and calls for more violence from the left. BEFORE the bullets had stop flying BEFORE the bodies of the innocent victims had grown cold. BEFORE the families of the dead knew what happened to their loved ones BEFORE the survivors were re-united with their families.

The left's Moral Outrage Industrial Complex seemed almost gleeful in their very political outrage.

A very small sample. But note the number of retweets and likes all while the killing was still going on or within a couple hours of it. :

1.jpg (71.62 KiB) Viewed 1217 times

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Never mind that Trump moved the US embassy to Jerusalem
Never mind that Trump forced the city of Palm Beach to repeal their law banning Blacks and Jews from White social clubs
Never mind that Trump's Daughter and grand children are Jewish.


In another Shaun King suggests that all conservatives must be monitored online.



So what is he suggesting a virtual "yellow star" attached to all conservative comments online?


Elsewhere Labor party leader Jeremy Corbin is doubling down on his demand that police protection be removed from Jewish Synagogues. Which brings brings me to this:

https://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/this-je ... buy-a-gun/

This Jewish Boy Is Going to Buy a Gun
By Roger L Simon October 28, 2018
chat 141 comments
This photo shows some of Stars of David with names of those killed at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh in Saturday's shooting, at a memorial outside the synagogue, Sunday, Oct. 28, 2018. (AP Photo/Gene J. Puskar)

For some time I have been a supporter of the Second Amendment -- intellectually. I agreed with the Founders' rationale for the right to bear arms. I even joined the NRA.

But I never bought a gun.

Although I know the basics of how to shoot, I didn't want a pistol around the house. I didn't think I needed it. I thought it too risky to own a weapon unless I practiced with it regularly and I didn't want to make time in my schedule for that. Real physical exercise was more important at my age. Also, I'm not a particularly fearful type who keeps a claw hammer secreted under the bed. Beyond that, I didn't want to awaken my mother -- a devoted gun-control advocate -- from her grave.

Until now. Until Pittsburgh. This Jewish boy is going to buy a gun.

The local and global situation with anti-Semitism has reached such a level I'd be a fool not to. Between the rising anti-Zionism and Jew hatred on our campuses and in the Democratic Party (what were Barack Obama and Bill Clinton doing being photographed with Louis Farrakhan?), the bloodthirsty jihadists, and the neo-Nazi monsters like this Bower character, we are at a point I never thought we'd reach in my lifetime. And as the co-screenwriter of two feature films about the Holocaust, I have a pretty good idea where it can lead.

[kmich]

From George Washington to the Hebrew Congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, 18 August 1790

Gentlemen.

... The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my Administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.

George Washington

[Doc]

From George Washington to the Hebrew Congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, 18 August 1790

Gentlemen.

... The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my Administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.

George Washington

Very nice kmich. Thanks for posting it.

[Ammianus]

Two observations on this as we approach the one month mark for the massacre:

1. Bowers was not just a virulent anti-semite, in retrospect he showed signs of virulent anti-Trump rage as well. Possibly even comparable to the average shock trooper in Anti-FA. Viewing in that lens, his massacre was not just to kill Jews, but a form of politically motivated terrorism engineered to wound Trump.

2. Corollary to the above, no one, absolutely no one, from the leftwing MSM, Fox News, to blue check journalist and SJWs Twitter, to the alt-right/alt-retard blogs, remembered the massacre when discussing the midterm results. Everybody was so busy talking about suburbans revolting against Trump or evil racial block voting by black and brown people, no one bothered to bring this nugget up:

Around three-quarters said that extremist violence is an important factor in their vote for the US House in 2018, according to preliminary CNN exit data, with a quarter who said it's the most important factor and half who said it's an important factor. Few said that extremist violence is a minor or not a factor to their vote.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/politics ... index.html

It is very possible the real story behind the Blue Wave of 2018 is the black swan massacre by a pathetic anti-semitic psycho

[Doc]

Two observations on this as we approach the one month mark for the massacre:

1. Bowers was not just a virulent anti-semite, in retrospect he showed signs of virulent anti-Trump rage as well. Possibly even comparable to the average shock trooper in Anti-FA. Viewing in that lens, his massacre was not just to kill Jews, but a form of politically motivated terrorism engineered to wound Trump.

2. Corollary to the above, no one, absolutely no one, from the leftwing MSM, Fox News, to blue check journalist and SJWs Twitter, to the alt-right/alt-retard blogs, remembered the massacre when discussing the midterm results. Everybody was so busy talking about suburbans revolting against Trump or evil racial block voting by black and brown people, no one bothered to bring this nugget up:

Around three-quarters said that extremist violence is an important factor in their vote for the US House in 2018, according to preliminary CNN exit data, with a quarter who said it's the most important factor and half who said it's an important factor. Few said that extremist violence is a minor or not a factor to their vote.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/politics ... index.html

It is very possible the real story behind the Blue Wave of 2018 is the black swan massacre by a pathetic anti-semitic psycho

I am still shocked that this happened in Pittsburgh. If something like this can happen in Pittsburgh, it can happen any where.

AS far as the Blue Wave goes, as it trickled, it was about huge amounts of out of district money coming from CA and the North East. Beto O'Rourke received the last time I heard $38 million from Hollywood and the rest of the left coast. That was nearly 80% of the money he had raised at that time.

(Not to be picking on just Beto or the Democrats), I have come to the conclusion that banned political campaign contributions from crossing political lines would do more than anything else to fix a lot of the problems in the US.
1) It would end political lobbying as we know it
2) It would heal a lot of the division in the US over politics as it would make politics much more local.
3) It would mean that elected representatives would be much more likely to represent the people that voted for them rather than the people who financed them

[Ibrahim]

I wouldn't link an attack like this to US election cycles. Its got more to do with conspiracy theories and extreme right-wing politics that spread on social media. The alt-right/neo-nazi groups a divided between loving Trump, and hating Trump because he isn't extreme enough.

There is no equivalent on the fringe left. Antifa/black bloc types will break windows or possibly set a parked police car on fire. The fringe right are committing mass-shootings with regularity. The only outlier is the alleged Bernie supporter who shot GOP congressmen at a baseball practice, but even then shooting your political rivals is a different type of deranged behavior than shooting up a synagogue or a black church or a sikh temple for no reason than the people inside belonged to those ethnic/religious groups.

Jews disproportionately face an even greater threat, from both the extreme right wing and from Islamists. I've said before, people who think they can foster a culture of hatred against one group and not have it spread to other groups they happen to like will end up greatly disappointed.

[Doc]

I wouldn't link an attack like this to US election cycles. Its got more to do with conspiracy theories and extreme right-wing politics that spread on social media. The alt-right/neo-nazi groups a divided between loving Trump, and hating Trump because he isn't extreme enough.

There is no equivalent on the fringe left. Antifa/black bloc types will break windows or possibly set a parked police car on fire. The fringe right are committing mass-shootings with regularity. The only outlier is the alleged Bernie supporter who shot GOP congressmen at a baseball practice, but even then shooting your political rivals is a different type of deranged behavior than shooting up a synagogue or a black church or a sikh temple for no reason than the people inside belonged to those ethnic/religious groups.

Jews disproportionately face an even greater threat, from both the extreme right wing and from Islamists. I've said before, people who think they can foster a culture of hatred against one group and not have it spread to other groups they happen to like will end up greatly disappointed.

Neo-nazis are socialists. Many of the alt-right types as well

https://powderedwigsociety.com/socialis ... d-spencer/

https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/06/ ... ight-wing/

[Ibrahim]

I wouldn't link an attack like this to US election cycles. Its got more to do with conspiracy theories and extreme right-wing politics that spread on social media. The alt-right/neo-nazi groups a divided between loving Trump, and hating Trump because he isn't extreme enough.

There is no equivalent on the fringe left. Antifa/black bloc types will break windows or possibly set a parked police car on fire. The fringe right are committing mass-shootings with regularity. The only outlier is the alleged Bernie supporter who shot GOP congressmen at a baseball practice, but even then shooting your political rivals is a different type of deranged behavior than shooting up a synagogue or a black church or a sikh temple for no reason than the people inside belonged to those ethnic/religious groups.

Jews disproportionately face an even greater threat, from both the extreme right wing and from Islamists. I've said before, people who think they can foster a culture of hatred against one group and not have it spread to other groups they happen to like will end up greatly disappointed.

Neo-nazis are socialists. Many of the alt-right types as well

https://powderedwigsociety.com/socialis ... d-spencer/

https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/06/ ... ight-wing/

I don't want to get into that old debate, Doc. Nazis and neo-nazis are technically left wing because they are socialist and not individualist, etc. I've never agreed, but we're arguing about taxonomy and not the conditions on the ground.

My point is: if you're worried about attacks on your synagogue in North America you're worried about a neo-nazi or an ISIS sympathizer, in that order.

[Doc]

I wouldn't link an attack like this to US election cycles. Its got more to do with conspiracy theories and extreme right-wing politics that spread on social media. The alt-right/neo-nazi groups a divided between loving Trump, and hating Trump because he isn't extreme enough.

There is no equivalent on the fringe left. Antifa/black bloc types will break windows or possibly set a parked police car on fire. The fringe right are committing mass-shootings with regularity. The only outlier is the alleged Bernie supporter who shot GOP congressmen at a baseball practice, but even then shooting your political rivals is a different type of deranged behavior than shooting up a synagogue or a black church or a sikh temple for no reason than the people inside belonged to those ethnic/religious groups.

Jews disproportionately face an even greater threat, from both the extreme right wing and from Islamists. I've said before, people who think they can foster a culture of hatred against one group and not have it spread to other groups they happen to like will end up greatly disappointed.

Neo-nazis are socialists. Many of the alt-right types as well

https://powderedwigsociety.com/socialis ... d-spencer/

https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/06/ ... ight-wing/

I don't want to get into that old debate, Doc. Nazis and neo-nazis are technically left wing because they are socialist and not individualist, etc. I've never agreed, but we're arguing about taxonomy and not the conditions on the ground.

My point is: if you're worried about attacks on your synagogue in North America you're worried about a neo-nazi or an ISIS sympathizer, in that order.

Last time I checked, in this century, on avg 178 people killed in the US per year by Islamic terrorists.

[Ibrahim]

Last time I checked, in this century, on avg 178 people killed in the US per year by Islamic terrorists.

That seems like a silly way to measure the present day threat, but if it makes you feel better to believe that Islamist terrorists are worse than neo-nazi terrorists I don't really care to debate that point either. Its true that only one type of terrorist seems to stick in people's minds anyway.

[Doc]

Last time I checked, in this century, on avg 178 people killed in the US per year by Islamic terrorists.

That seems like a silly way to measure the present day threat, but if it makes you feel better to believe that Islamist terrorists are worse than neo-nazi terrorists I don't really care to debate that point either. Its true that only one type of terrorist seems to stick in people's minds anyway.

I would say that which terrorists were worst would be the ones that killed more people.

[Ibrahim]

I would say that which terrorists were worst would be the ones that killed more people.

You would say the worst terrorist are the ones that don't look like you. Moreover the ones that do look like you, despite loving Trump and hating feminists and socialists and liberals, are really, technically left wing anyway.

Are there going to be more attacks from ISIS sympathizers and the like? Yes. In fact there may have been one yesterday in Strasbourg. That's a real threat.
But there are also going to be more of these alt-right kids shooting up synagogues and black churches and yoga studios and, perhaps to less outcry, mosques. That's also a threat, and in North America its the faster growing threat.

So you can wave it off, but you can't say you weren't told.

[Doc]

I would say that which terrorists were worst would be the ones that killed more people.

You would say the worst terrorist are the ones that don't look like you. Moreover the ones that do look like you, despite loving Trump and hating feminists and socialists and liberals, are really, technically left wing anyway.

So who was it that said?
"You love life, we love death"

Who was it that literally blew people into pieces at the Boston Marathon? Black Africans? Arabs? Jews? Mexicans?

Are there going to be more attacks from ISIS sympathizers and the like? Yes. In fact there may have been one yesterday in Strasbourg. That's a real threat.
But there are also going to be more of these alt-right kids shooting up synagogues and black churches and yoga studios and, perhaps to less outcry, mosques. That's also a threat, and in North America its the faster growing threat.

So you can wave it off, but you can't say you weren't told.

Socialist kids, Fascist kids Ibrahim. Kids that are sold on the pseudo science of eugenics' concept of different "races" of human beings. You imply a claim victim hood. "OH those other people are soooo dangerous. We really need to do something about them" Look in the mirror Ibrahim this is what you will see:

2cw3n8.jpg (134.81 KiB) Viewed 1145 times

[Ibrahim]

I would say that which terrorists were worst would be the ones that killed more people.

You would say the worst terrorist are the ones that don't look like you. Moreover the ones that do look like you, despite loving Trump and hating feminists and socialists and liberals, are really, technically left wing anyway.

So who was it that said?
"You love life, we love death"

Who was it that literally blew people into pieces at the Boston Marathon? Black Africans? Arabs? Jews? Mexicans?

Who was it that gunned down elderly worshipers in a black church, because they were black? Who gunned down Jewish worshipers in a Pittsburgh synagogue, because they were Jewish? Who gunned down Sikh woshipers in a gurdwara because, well, he might have been confused which religion they belonged to but he definitely knew they weren't white. I'll skip the mosque shooting, you might not feel the same way about that one, but you get my point.

Socialist kids, Fascist kids Ibrahim. Kids that are sold on the pseudo science of eugenics' concept of different "races" of human beings. You imply a claim victim hood. "OH those other people are soooo dangerous. We really need to do something about them" Look in the mirror Ibrahim this is what you will see:

2cw3n8.jpg

Are you calling me Hitler because I pointed out how many neo-nazi terrorist attacks there have been lately in the US? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, Doc.

[Doc]

I would say that which terrorists were worst would be the ones that killed more people.

You would say the worst terrorist are the ones that don't look like you. Moreover the ones that do look like you, despite loving Trump and hating feminists and socialists and liberals, are really, technically left wing anyway.

So who was it that said?
"You love life, we love death"

Who was it that literally blew people into pieces at the Boston Marathon? Black Africans? Arabs? Jews? Mexicans?

Who was it that gunned down elderly worshipers in a black church, because they were black? Who gunned down Jewish worshipers in a Pittsburgh synagogue, because they were Jewish? Who gunned down Sikh woshipers in a gurdwara because, well, he might have been confused which religion they belonged to but he definitely knew they weren't white. I'll skip the mosque shooting, you might not feel the same way about that one, but you get my point.

Socialist kids, Fascist kids Ibrahim. Kids that are sold on the pseudo science of eugenics' concept of different "races" of human beings. You imply a claim victim hood. "OH those other people are soooo dangerous. We really need to do something about them" Look in the mirror Ibrahim this is what you will see:

2cw3n8.jpg

Are you calling me Hitler because I pointed out how many neo-nazi terrorist attacks there have been lately in the US? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, Doc.

In the immigrant thread you were implying that I am a "racist" Which makes a hell of a lot less sense than me implying you following in the victim hood footsteps of Hitler. Or didn't you know that HItler's main sales pitch was that the German people were victims? Primarily of Jews....

[Ibrahim]

In the immigrant thread you were implying that I am a "racist"

I wasn't, and I certainly never used the worst you've placed in quotes to describe anyone here in that thread.

Which makes a hell of a lot less sense than me implying you following in the victim hood footsteps of Hitler.

None of it makes any sense.

Or didn't you know that HItler's main sales pitch was that the German people were victims? Primarily of Jews....

I'm saying here that Jewish people (among others) are increasingly the victims of neo-nazis. The conspiracy theory that Jews are conspiring against "real Americans" is widespread on the alt-right, and it is starting to cost people their lives. What were the tiki torch brigade shouting in Charlottesville?

Our only main dispute seems to be whether or not the neo-nazis and alt-right are technically right wing, and whether or not islamist terrorists or neo-nazis technically constitute the bigger threat to Jewish people in the US today.

Its all very technical.

[Doc]

In the immigrant thread you were implying that I am a "racist"

I wasn't, and I certainly never used the worst you've placed in quotes to describe anyone here in that thread.

Sorry it was actually this thread where you made the implication:

You would say the worst terrorist are the ones that don't look like you. Moreover the ones that do look like you, despite loving Trump and hating feminists and socialists and liberals, are really, technically left wing anyway.

I dislike illiberals of all strips. It makes no difference to me what they look like.

Which makes a hell of a lot less sense than me implying you following in the victim hood footsteps of Hitler.

None of it makes any sense.

Or didn't you know that HItler's main sales pitch was that the German people were victims? Primarily of Jews....

I'm saying here that Jewish people (among others) are increasingly the victims of neo-nazis. The conspiracy theory that Jews are conspiring against "real Americans" is widespread on the alt-right, and it is starting to cost people their lives. What were the tiki torch brigade shouting in Charlottesville?

Not nearly so wide spread as you imagine At least not in the US. Certainly very widespread in the EU.
As stated in the article I believe I posted previously the real founders of the Charlottesville rally as libertarians got conned by Richard Spencer into allowing Spencer's supporters to join them under the guise of free speech.

Our only main dispute seems to be whether or not the neo-nazis and alt-right are technically right wing, and whether or not islamist terrorists or neo-nazis technically constitute the bigger threat to Jewish people in the US today.

Its all very technical.

Simple -- Which of HItler's Nazi 25 points would the left disagree with? Which do you disagree with?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/r ... points.htm
The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party

1. We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

2. We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations; and that the Peace Treaties of Versailles and St. Germain shall be abrogated.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population.

4. Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

5. Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.

Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

(b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

(c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich.

Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.

The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

[Ibrahim]

In the immigrant thread you were implying that I am a "racist"

I wasn't, and I certainly never used the worst you've placed in quotes to describe anyone here in that thread.

Sorry it was actually this thread where you made the implication:

You would say the worst terrorist are the ones that don't look like you. Moreover the ones that do look like you, despite loving Trump and hating feminists and socialists and liberals, are really, technically left wing anyway.

I dislike illiberals of all strips. It makes no difference to me what they look like.

That's nothing to do with racism, only that you can't face the scale of neo-nazi domestic terrorism because they aren't as easy to recognize/categorize. They fit in, and online they bleed over into other fringe political groups that aren't racist/violent, and the regular non-neo-nazi MAGA people.

Or didn't you know that HItler's main sales pitch was that the German people were victims? Primarily of Jews....

I'm saying here that Jewish people (among others) are increasingly the victims of neo-nazis. The conspiracy theory that Jews are conspiring against "real Americans" is widespread on the alt-right, and it is starting to cost people their lives. What were the tiki torch brigade shouting in Charlottesville?

Not nearly so wide spread as you imagine At least not in the US. Certainly very widespread in the EU.
As stated in the article I believe I posted previously the real founders of the Charlottesville rally as libertarians got conned by Richard Spencer into allowing Spencer's supporters to join them under the guise of free speech.

The main organizer of that rally was an alt-right guy to the core, but I will give the traditional right wing some credit and say that, in the aftermath of Charlottesville, they totally abandoned the alt-right groups for the most part. Even the alt-right guys still angling for mainstream respectability dropped their overtly alt-right/neo-nazi elements. Its too bad people had to die first, but its progress.

You're correct that this movement in general has more mainstream political success in Europe, but the targeted mass-killings by alt-right/neo-nazi types have so far been more common in the US and Canada.

Our only main dispute seems to be whether or not the neo-nazis and alt-right are technically right wing, and whether or not islamist terrorists or neo-nazis technically constitute the bigger threat to Jewish people in the US today.

Its all very technical.

Simple -- Which of HItler's Nazi 25 points would the left disagree with? Which do you disagree with?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/r ... points.htm
The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party

1. We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

2. We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations; and that the Peace Treaties of Versailles and St. Germain shall be abrogated.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population.

4. Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

5. Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.

Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

(b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

(c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich.

Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.

The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

This is wild to me, but I've underlined and bolded the parts above that most if not all hard left/antifa types would disagree with. It leaves you with some basic communist ideas but nothing remotely close to the Nazi regime and its obsessions with racial purity.

Serious question, Doc, and I hope you don't think I'm being insulting here: have you seen those political graphs that have a horizontal axis for left-wing and right-wing, and a vertical axis for collectivist and individualist? You may also see the vertical axis labeled collectivist and individualist.

[Doc]

In the immigrant thread you were implying that I am a "racist"

I wasn't, and I certainly never used the worst you've placed in quotes to describe anyone here in that thread.

Sorry it was actually this thread where you made the implication:

You would say the worst terrorist are the ones that don't look like you. Moreover the ones that do look like you, despite loving Trump and hating feminists and socialists and liberals, are really, technically left wing anyway.

I dislike illiberals of all strips. It makes no difference to me what they look like.

That's nothing to do with racism, only that you can't face the scale of neo-nazi domestic terrorism because they aren't as easy to recognize/categorize. They fit in, and online they bleed over into other fringe political groups that aren't racist/violent, and the regular non-neo-nazi MAGA people.

They fit in very well as socialists Ibrahim. We are talking about a cultural social construct that insists it knows what is best to do with the lives of others "COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD" is the common screed of all socialists.(And Islamic extremism as well) IE Individuals are expendable if it serves the "common good".

Or didn't you know that HItler's main sales pitch was that the German people were victims? Primarily of Jews....

I'm saying here that Jewish people (among others) are increasingly the victims of neo-nazis. The conspiracy theory that Jews are conspiring against "real Americans" is widespread on the alt-right, and it is starting to cost people their lives. What were the tiki torch brigade shouting in Charlottesville?

Not nearly so wide spread as you imagine At least not in the US. Certainly very widespread in the EU.
As stated in the article I believe I posted previously the real founders of the Charlottesville rally as libertarians got conned by Richard Spencer into allowing Spencer's supporters to join them under the guise of free speech.

The main organizer of that rally was an alt-right guy to the core, but I will give the traditional right wing some credit and say that, in the aftermath of Charlottesville, they totally abandoned the alt-right groups for the most part. Even the alt-right guys still angling for mainstream respectability dropped their overtly alt-right/neo-nazi elements. Its too bad people had to die first, but its progress.

You're correct that this movement in general has more mainstream political success in Europe, but the targeted mass-killings by alt-right/neo-nazi types have so far been more common in the US and Canada.

911 being a the largest example.

Our only main dispute seems to be whether or not the neo-nazis and alt-right are technically right wing, and whether or not islamist terrorists or neo-nazis technically constitute the bigger threat to Jewish people in the US today.

Its all very technical.

Simple -- Which of HItler's Nazi 25 points would the left disagree with? Which do you disagree with?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/r ... points.htm
The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party

1. We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

2. We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations; and that the Peace Treaties of Versailles and St. Germain shall be abrogated.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population.

4. Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

5. Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.

Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

(b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

(c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich.

Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.

The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

This is wild to me, but I've underlined and bolded the parts above that most if not all hard left/antifa types would disagree with.

Leftists would agree to almost all of 9 to 25 and would disagree with most of 1 to 8.

It leaves you with some basic communist ideas but nothing remotely close to the Nazi regime and its obsessions with racial purity. {/quote]

But Ibrahim socialism has everything to do with "racial" purity. As "race" is a made up word from the pseudo science of eugenics. There is no genetic basis for the idea of different "races" of humans. It is just a fake label to put on people in order to de-humanize them. It always comes in the form "Our common good is justification to treat badly or even kill those "others", as they were born that way" Last century 157 million people were murdered by socialists based on that line of thinking. Socialist leaders believe they are the sole deciders of what the "Common good" is. They use it to motivate people to do their bidding. But with socialism it nearly always seems to come in the same form.

Serious question, Doc, and I hope you don't think I'm being insulting here: have you seen those political graphs that have a horizontal axis for left-wing and right-wing, and a vertical axis for collectivist and individualist? You may also see the vertical axis labeled collectivist and individualist.

Of course. I prefer placing political types on a circle for clarity, but basically they make a lot more sense than a straight line, as extremists seem to easily flip from one end of the spectrum to the other. IE you go far enough along the "line" and you end up at the same place.

It seems to me that this implies there are only limited modes of human behavior and group organization. There can be some deviation from the circle but they are just slight deviations. Maybe individuals breaking from the "Common Good" Like the French Nazi police official that detested racism. So he failed to find any Jews in the area he was responsible for.

Many fall into the trap that the "common good" comes with an implied common decency but that really does not follow, as decency is an individual human trait and under socialist systems, control from the top is inherent to the system. IE the leadership decides what the "Common Good" is.

Fascist socialism deviated in its means of control by political necessity in that it did not outright nationalize industries, but regulated them to the point they could not continue to exist with out conforming to the will of the strong man of the state. Hitler killed, Stalin killed, Mao killed, Pol Pot killed, all in the name of the "Common Good" There was no justice in that for any individual based on who they were. More often than not it was who their parents were as to how they were judged.

The Chinese communist party are now using technology as a means of control. They are to use "Big Data" to follow every individual, particularly online, to determine their "credit score" with respect to the state. Their conformity to the will of the state will be determined by that credit score and thus what is best to do with their lives.

Want this job ? -- Sorry your credit score is not good enough.
Need Medical treatment? -- Sorry your credit score is not good enough.
Want to continue to live? -- Sorry your credit score is not good enough "to justify your existence".

hQvsf2MUKRQ

The CCP is quite brilliant in this, in a very evil kind of way. No further need for concentration camps for its enemies to point to, as every one with a bad "credit score" will be a concentration camp unto themselves. Each with a not so easy to tell individual story as to why their "credit score" is not just. In all great likelihood they will not even know why their credit score is not good, because they will not be told anything, other than "it is not good".

[Ibrahim]

In the immigrant thread you were implying that I am a "racist"

I wasn't, and I certainly never used the worst you've placed in quotes to describe anyone here in that thread.

Sorry it was actually this thread where you made the implication:

You would say the worst terrorist are the ones that don't look like you. Moreover the ones that do look like you, despite loving Trump and hating feminists and socialists and liberals, are really, technically left wing anyway.

I dislike illiberals of all strips. It makes no difference to me what they look like.

That's nothing to do with racism, only that you can't face the scale of neo-nazi domestic terrorism because they aren't as easy to recognize/categorize. They fit in, and online they bleed over into other fringe political groups that aren't racist/violent, and the regular non-neo-nazi MAGA people.

They fit in very well as socialists Ibrahim. We are talking about a cultural social construct that insists it knows what is best to do with the lives of others "COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD" is the common screed of all socialists.(And Islamic extremism as well) IE Individuals are expendable if it serves the "common good".

Alt-right/neo-nazi types don't believe in the common good, they only believe in the good of their own ethnic and religious group, and they often brag about their plans to kill their political rivals, particularly socialists and communists.

The main organizer of that rally was an alt-right guy to the core, but I will give the traditional right wing some credit and say that, in the aftermath of Charlottesville, they totally abandoned the alt-right groups for the most part. Even the alt-right guys still angling for mainstream respectability dropped their overtly alt-right/neo-nazi elements. Its too bad people had to die first, but its progress.

You're correct that this movement in general has more mainstream political success in Europe, but the targeted mass-killings by alt-right/neo-nazi types have so far been more common in the US and Canada.

911 being a the largest example.

9/11 was perpetrated by alt-right neo-nazis? That'd be a new conspiracy theory I haven't heard before.

Leftists would agree to almost all of 9 to 25 and would disagree with most of 1 to 8.

Well obviously I disagree since I already told you what portions I think contemporary leftists would disagree with.

It leaves you with some basic communist ideas but nothing remotely close to the Nazi regime and its obsessions with racial purity.

But Ibrahim socialism has everything to do with "racial" purity. As "race" is a made up word from the pseudo science of eugenics. There is no genetic basis for the idea of different "races" of humans. It is just a fake label to put on people in order to de-humanize them. It always comes in the form "Our common good is justification to treat badly or even kill those "others", as they were born that way" Last century 157 million people were murdered by socialists based on that line of thinking. Socialist leaders believe they are the sole deciders of what the "Common good" is. They use it to motivate people to do their bidding. But with socialism it nearly always seems to come in the same form.

Communists killed people they believed were or could possibly oppose their political regime. Fascists did the same, plus also killed ethnic minorities, the disabled, homosexuals, and so on.

I am inclined to agree that "race" is a mere construct with which all sorts of atrocities have been justified. Sadly the alt-right/neo-nazi types believe it is very real and some of them are killing people over it.

Serious question, Doc, and I hope you don't think I'm being insulting here: have you seen those political graphs that have a horizontal axis for left-wing and right-wing, and a vertical axis for collectivist and individualist? You may also see the vertical axis labeled collectivist and individualist.

Of course. I prefer placing political types on a circle for clarity, but basically they make a lot more sense than a straight line, as extremists seem to easily flip from one end of the spectrum to the other. IE you go far enough along the "line" and you end up at the same place. [/quote]

Ah, "horseshoe theory." I agree for the most part. I might take it a step beyond politics and say that you can always find plenty of people willing to kill, and they don't particularly mind what for. You can tell them its for communism or racial purity or the queen or jihad or whatever.

It seems to me that this implies there are only limited modes of human behavior and group organization. There can be some deviation from the circle but they are just slight deviations. Maybe individuals breaking from the "Common Good" Like the French Nazi police official that detested racism. So he failed to find any Jews in the area he was responsible for.

Many fall into the trap that the "common good" comes with an implied common decency but that really does not follow, as decency is an individual human trait and under socialist systems, control from the top is inherent to the system. IE the leadership decides what the "Common Good" is.

Fascist socialism deviated in its means of control by political necessity in that it did not outright nationalize industries, but regulated them to the point they could not continue to exist with out conforming to the will of the strong man of the state. Hitler killed, Stalin killed, Mao killed, Pol Pot killed, all in the name of the "Common Good" There was no justice in that for any individual based on who they were. More often than not it was who their parents were as to how they were judged.

The Chinese communist party are now using technology as a means of control. They are to use "Big Data" to follow every individual, particularly online, to determine their "credit score" with respect to the state. Their conformity to the will of the state will be determined by that credit score and thus what is best to do with their lives.

Want this job ? -- Sorry your credit score is not good enough.
Need Medical treatment? -- Sorry your credit score is not good enough.
Want to continue to live? -- Sorry your credit score is not good enough "to justify your existence".

hQvsf2MUKRQ

The CCP is quite brilliant in this, in a very evil kind of way. No further need for concentration camps for its enemies to point to, as every one with a bad "credit score" will be a concentration camp unto themselves. Each with a not so easy to tell individual story as to why their "credit score" is not just. In all great likelihood they will not even know why their credit score is not good, because they will not be told anything, other than "it is not good".

Your thinking on this actually lines up a bit with the anarchist withs of the antifa/black-bloc type leftists. Their big sticking point is coercion. The Nazi and Soviet states were equally bad because they were coercive. Our current society is bad because its coercive (they say). This is where the horseshoe theory works on the individualist end of the spectrum. Anarchists and libertarians end up bumping into each other on one end of the graph, just like the fascists and communists on the other.


You've beaten me, Doc. I didn't want to argue about whether or not the alt-right was technically left or right wing, but here we are.

[noddy]

humans in their natural state look after family and friends and barring addiction, wont spend money on much that doesn't improve their quality of day to day life.

food, lifestyle gadgets and alcohol being the standard voluntary spends for QOL.

most of politics is justifying taking money off folks for spending it on something else, except the naive souls who think those default spends are all life needs and the rest can go sit on a chainsaw.

[Doc]

In the immigrant thread you were implying that I am a "racist"

I wasn't, and I certainly never used the worst you've placed in quotes to describe anyone here in that thread.

Sorry it was actually this thread where you made the implication:

You would say the worst terrorist are the ones that don't look like you. Moreover the ones that do look like you, despite loving Trump and hating feminists and socialists and liberals, are really, technically left wing anyway.

I dislike illiberals of all strips. It makes no difference to me what they look like.

That's nothing to do with racism, only that you can't face the scale of neo-nazi domestic terrorism because they aren't as easy to recognize/categorize. They fit in, and online they bleed over into other fringe political groups that aren't racist/violent, and the regular non-neo-nazi MAGA people.

They fit in very well as socialists Ibrahim. We are talking about a cultural social construct that insists it knows what is best to do with the lives of others "COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD" is the common screed of all socialists.(And Islamic extremism as well) IE Individuals are expendable if it serves the "common good".

Alt-right/neo-nazi types don't believe in the common good, they only believe in the good of their own ethnic and religious group, and they often brag about their plans to kill their political rivals, particularly socialists and communists.

Common good is the common good of the group. No more no less. Neo-Nazis certainly believe in Common Good. It is called "Identity Politics" Ibrahim Socialists are certainly not all inclusive. Their entire ideological is based on the idea that there are oppressors of the group whose support they are trying to win.

The main organizer of that rally was an alt-right guy to the core, but I will give the traditional right wing some credit and say that, in the aftermath of Charlottesville, they totally abandoned the alt-right groups for the most part. Even the alt-right guys still angling for mainstream respectability dropped their overtly alt-right/neo-nazi elements. Its too bad people had to die first, but its progress.

You're correct that this movement in general has more mainstream political success in Europe, but the targeted mass-killings by alt-right/neo-nazi types have so far been more common in the US and Canada.

911 being a the largest example.

9/11 was perpetrated by alt-right neo-nazis? That'd be a new conspiracy theory I haven't heard before.

AL Qaeda is a prime example of "COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD" Their members willing give up their individual lives in killing themselves by suicide bombing to kill "others" Unless you want to claim they do this for Allah, of the religion of peace, rather than the "Common Good" Neo-nazis = Left wingers. Just like the French label Neo-conservatives as Neo Liberals. Labels are just a way of promoting or demoting points of view.

Leftists would agree to almost all of 9 to 25 and would disagree with most of 1 to 8.

Well obviously I disagree since I already told you what portions I think contemporary leftists would disagree with.

It leaves you with some basic communist ideas but nothing remotely close to the Nazi regime and its obsessions with racial purity.

But Ibrahim socialism has everything to do with "racial" purity. As "race" is a made up word from the pseudo science of eugenics. There is no genetic basis for the idea of different "races" of humans. It is just a fake label to put on people in order to de-humanize them. It always comes in the form "Our common good is justification to treat badly or even kill those "others", as they were born that way" Last century 157 million people were murdered by socialists based on that line of thinking. Socialist leaders believe they are the sole deciders of what the "Common good" is. They use it to motivate people to do their bidding. But with socialism it nearly always seems to come in the same form.

Communists killed people they believed were or could possibly oppose their political regime. Fascists did the same, plus also killed ethnic minorities, the disabled, homosexuals, and so on.

I am inclined to agree that "race" is a mere construct with which all sorts of atrocities have been justified. Sadly the alt-right/neo-nazi types believe it is very real and some of them are killing people over it.

What you label as socialists have done the same in killing and even surpassed the Nazi themselves.

Serious question, Doc, and I hope you don't think I'm being insulting here: have you seen those political graphs that have a horizontal axis for left-wing and right-wing, and a vertical axis for collectivist and individualist? You may also see the vertical axis labeled collectivist and individualist.

Of course. I prefer placing political types on a circle for clarity, but basically they make a lot more sense than a straight line, as extremists seem to easily flip from one end of the spectrum to the other. IE you go far enough along the "line" and you end up at the same place. [/quote]

Ah, "horseshoe theory." I agree for the most part. I might take it a step beyond politics and say that you can always find plenty of people willing to kill, and they don't particularly mind what for. You can tell them its for communism or racial purity or the queen or jihad or whatever.[/quote]

That is interesting that you bring up the Queen. Maybe deserves another thread.

[/quote]

It seems to me that this implies there are only limited modes of human behavior and group organization. There can be some deviation from the circle but they are just slight deviations. Maybe individuals breaking from the "Common Good" Like the French Nazi police official that detested racism. So he failed to find any Jews in the area he was responsible for.

Many fall into the trap that the "common good" comes with an implied common decency but that really does not follow, as decency is an individual human trait and under socialist systems, control from the top is inherent to the system. IE the leadership decides what the "Common Good" is.

Fascist socialism deviated in its means of control by political necessity in that it did not outright nationalize industries, but regulated them to the point they could not continue to exist with out conforming to the will of the strong man of the state. Hitler killed, Stalin killed, Mao killed, Pol Pot killed, all in the name of the "Common Good" There was no justice in that for any individual based on who they were. More often than not it was who their parents were as to how they were judged.

The Chinese communist party are now using technology as a means of control. They are to use "Big Data" to follow every individual, particularly online, to determine their "credit score" with respect to the state. Their conformity to the will of the state will be determined by that credit score and thus what is best to do with their lives.

Want this job ? -- Sorry your credit score is not good enough.
Need Medical treatment? -- Sorry your credit score is not good enough.
Want to continue to live? -- Sorry your credit score is not good enough "to justify your existence".

hQvsf2MUKRQ

The CCP is quite brilliant in this, in a very evil kind of way. No further need for concentration camps for its enemies to point to, as every one with a bad "credit score" will be a concentration camp unto themselves. Each with a not so easy to tell individual story as to why their "credit score" is not just. In all great likelihood they will not even know why their credit score is not good, because they will not be told anything, other than "it is not good".

Your thinking on this actually lines up a bit with the anarchist withs of the antifa/black-bloc type leftists. Their big sticking point is coercion. The Nazi and Soviet states were equally bad because they were coercive. Our current society is bad because its coercive (they say). This is where the horseshoe theory works on the individualist end of the spectrum. Anarchists and libertarians end up bumping into each other on one end of the graph, just like the fascists and communists on the other.[/quote]

Antifa/Black block types are inherently violently coercive. They use Fascist/socialist methods to try impose their will.

You've beaten me, Doc. I didn't want to argue about whether or not the alt-right was technically left or right wing, but here we are.

I had written a much longer reply but it seems like it did not post and it is lost. My reason to bring up Hitler's Nazi 25 points is that Socialists tend to disagree with the nationalist part of and largely agree with the non nationalist points. Since the majority are non nationalists there is really no need to look beyond that Socialism and National Socialism are of the same mother.... Karl Marx Who btw thought eugenics was brilliant.

[Ibrahim]

Why are the antifa people and the alt-right/neo-nazi people fighting then?

What you label as socialists have done the same in killing and even surpassed the Nazi themselves.

Communists had a longer run, stands to reason they would rack up a more atrocious score. Hard to imagine fascists doing any less, if they had actually managed to win any of the wars they started. The British Empire also killed more people than the Third Reich, but they spread it out over 200 years to the communists' 50 and the Nazis' 12.

Western European social democrats seem alright though. There haven't been many gulags in Norway, you just get a bunch of vacation days.

My reason to bring up Hitler's Nazi 25 points is that Socialists tend to disagree with the nationalist part of and largely agree with the non nationalist points.

Fascism is a variation on Marxist ideas that adds a few conservative elements, thereby appealing to the capitalist class that backed Hitler and Mussolini, instead of trying to destroy that class as the Bolsheviks and Maoists did. Fascism doesn't even need to be racist, logically speaking. It just always has been in practice.

To get back to my original point, you can make arguments that the resulting mishmash of political ideas that constitutes a "neo-nazi" is technically left or right wing, we obviously take opposing views on this point but I at least agree that there is an argument to be made. The point is that they are bad politically, bad morally, and worst of all they've been killing people lately.

[Doc]

Why are the antifa people and the alt-right/neo-nazi people fighting then?

Why do Catholics and protestants fight in places like Norther Ireland?

What you label as socialists have done the same in killing and even surpassed the Nazi themselves.

Communists had a longer run, stands to reason they would rack up a more atrocious score. Hard to imagine fascists doing any less, if they had actually managed to win any of the wars they started. The British Empire also killed more people than the Third Reich, but they spread it out over 200 years to the communists' 50 and the Nazis' 12.

From 1949 to 1987 (38 years)the Chinese killed 72 million people that exceeds Nazi Germany by yearly average.

Western European social democrats seem alright though. There haven't been many gulags in Norway, you just get a bunch of vacation days.

Norway isn't a socialist country.

My reason to bring up Hitler's Nazi 25 points is that Socialists tend to disagree with the nationalist part of and largely agree with the non nationalist points.

Fascism is a variation on Marxist ideas that adds a few conservative elements, thereby appealing to the capitalist class that backed Hitler and Mussolini, instead of trying to destroy that class as the Bolsheviks and Maoists did. Fascism doesn't even need to be racist, logically speaking. It just always has been in practice.[/quote]

What "conservative" ideas exactly were added?

To get back to my original point, you can make arguments that the resulting mishmash of political ideas that constitutes a "neo-nazi" is technically left or right wing, we obviously take opposing views on this point but I at least agree that there is an argument to be made. The point is that they are bad politically, bad morally, and worst of all they've been killing people lately.

The evidence is over whelming that Nazi were and Neo Nazis are socialists. Not only that they all claim to be socialists.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Phooey on all Nazi/socialist/leftist/liberal drivel. Democrats are out of power and throwing a temper tantrum.