Gaily Random Philosophical Subjects

[AzariLoveIran]

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NYT - WHY are political and religious figures who campaign against gay rights so often implicated in sexual encounters with same-sex partners ?

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Homophobic ? Maybe You’re Gay

In recent years, Ted Haggard, an evangelical leader who preached that homosexuality was a sin, resigned after a scandal involving a former male prostitute; Larry Craig, a United States senator who opposed including sexual orientation in hate-crime legislation, was arrested on suspicion of lewd conduct in a men’s bathroom; and Glenn Murphy Jr., a leader of the Young Republican National Convention and an opponent of same-sex marriage, pleaded guilty to a lesser charge after being accused of sexually assaulting another man.

One theory is that homosexual urges, when repressed out of shame or fear, can be expressed as homophobia. Freud famously called this process a “reaction formation” — the angry battle against the outward symbol of feelings that are inwardly being stifled. Even Mr. Haggard seemed to endorse this idea when, apologizing after his scandal for his anti-gay rhetoric, he said, “I think I was partially so vehement because of my own war.”

It’s a compelling theory — and now there is scientific reason to believe it. In this month’s issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, we and our fellow researchers provide empirical evidence that homophobia can result, at least in part, from the suppression of same-sex desire.

much more @ link

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David (Goldman), anybody home ? ? ?

Poor Sufis


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[Simple Minded]

Azari,

Forbidden fruit?

Hell, I thought this was a well known, well documented phenomena.... Old as the hills.

I think I recall it badly paraphrased as "those who are the most brutal persecuters are the ones who are always complaining that they are persecuted."

Look at the people who scream "racism," "bigot," "I am a victim," or the how the pursuit of politcal advantages forces binary thinking upon the pursuer!!!

Don't open those doors.......

[Mr. Perfect]

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NYT - WHY are political and religious figures who campaign against gay rights so often implicated in sexual encounters with same-sex partners ?

.

Homophobic ? Maybe You’re Gay

In recent years, Ted Haggard, an evangelical leader who preached that homosexuality was a sin, resigned after a scandal involving a former male prostitute; Larry Craig, a United States senator who opposed including sexual orientation in hate-crime legislation, was arrested on suspicion of lewd conduct in a men’s bathroom; and Glenn Murphy Jr., a leader of the Young Republican National Convention and an opponent of same-sex marriage, pleaded guilty to a lesser charge after being accused of sexually assaulting another man.

One theory is that homosexual urges, when repressed out of shame or fear, can be expressed as homophobia. Freud famously called this process a “reaction formation” — the angry battle against the outward symbol of feelings that are inwardly being stifled. Even Mr. Haggard seemed to endorse this idea when, apologizing after his scandal for his anti-gay rhetoric, he said, “I think I was partially so vehement because of my own war.”

It’s a compelling theory — and now there is scientific reason to believe it. In this month’s issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, we and our fellow researchers provide empirical evidence that homophobia can result, at least in part, from the suppression of same-sex desire.

much more @ link

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David (Goldman), anybody home ? ? ?

Poor Sufis


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Azari, you got it 100% backwards.

Not "Homophobic ? Maybe You’re Gay"

Real issue is "Gay ? Maybe You’re Homophobic"

Remember, gays say they are gay at first knowledge of self awareness. The phobia of themselves apparently comes a long later.

[Simple Minded]

Bravo Mr. Perfect!!!

Also seems true of most political-ideological activists, shortly after they attain self-awareness (age 6 or 8 maybe?).......

they logically conclude "The whole world is fupt duck!!!"

From there it is only a short mental leap to "Life is unfair!"

Gotta credit Thoreau... and Hoffer....... not me.....

[AzariLoveIran]

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NYT - WHY are political and religious figures who campaign against gay rights so often implicated in sexual encounters with same-sex partners ?

.

Homophobic ? Maybe You’re Gay

In recent years, Ted Haggard, an evangelical leader who preached that homosexuality was a sin, resigned after a scandal involving a former male prostitute; Larry Craig, a United States senator who opposed including sexual orientation in hate-crime legislation, was arrested on suspicion of lewd conduct in a men’s bathroom; and Glenn Murphy Jr., a leader of the Young Republican National Convention and an opponent of same-sex marriage, pleaded guilty to a lesser charge after being accused of sexually assaulting another man.

One theory is that homosexual urges, when repressed out of shame or fear, can be expressed as homophobia. Freud famously called this process a “reaction formation” — the angry battle against the outward symbol of feelings that are inwardly being stifled. Even Mr. Haggard seemed to endorse this idea when, apologizing after his scandal for his anti-gay rhetoric, he said, “I think I was partially so vehement because of my own war.”

It’s a compelling theory — and now there is scientific reason to believe it. In this month’s issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, we and our fellow researchers provide empirical evidence that homophobia can result, at least in part, from the suppression of same-sex desire.

much more @ link

.

David (Goldman), anybody home ? ? ?

Poor Sufis


.

Azari, you got it 100% backwards.

Not "Homophobic ? Maybe You’re Gay"

Real issue is "Gay ? Maybe You’re Homophobic"

Remember, gays say they are gay at first knowledge of self awareness. The phobia of themselves apparently comes a long later.

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, have to admit, you have a valid point, MP

true, gays say they already dreamin suckin dicks in crib, phobia (of themselves), apparently, comes long long later

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Forbidden fruit ?

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Fruit ? ?

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I think I recall it badly paraphrased as "those who are the most brutal persecutors are the ones who are always complaining that they are persecuted."

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Rhubarb , you listening .. stop complaining .. and .. let go of that poor Pali boy


VcC1sXsu6Sw



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[noddy]

once you remove the percentage of humans who take to self loathing without any outside help or atleast go their very easily, it is somewhat apparent that a virulent anti gay environment creates more of it. the asian cultures that are blase about it dont seem to have the same levels of crazy going on about it all, from both sides.

imho most species, including humans do generate non alpha types, be it genetics or environment or a messy mix of the two and they are "useful" in many ways to a group ... i dont really get the strong anti gay agenda, simplisticly they are just less competition for me

having said all that, im not that sure its much worse than lots of other being the "wrong type" in a petty group of insecure humans and i dont think its worth isolating and celebrating anymore than all the other forms of human prejudice... special laws and whatnot are counter productive things.

[Mr. Perfect]

Bravo Mr. Perfect!!!

Also seems true of most political-ideological activists, shortly after they attain self-awareness (age 6 or 8 maybe?).......

they logically conclude "The whole world is fupt duck!!!"

From there it is only a short mental leap to "Life is unfair!"

Gotta credit Thoreau... and Hoffer....... not me.....

Projection is such a transparent and powerful force.

Take our Ibrahim for instance. I think I can say I know of no one more obsessed with race than he is. He can barely discuss any political or non-political issue without interjecting race, or "bigotry". I honestly can't keep up, I am essentially oblivious about race. I am a pedestrian color blind person and have hopes of improving race relations, but race consciousness just doesn't exist in me, I don't find race to be interesting.

So someone like Ibrahim is very sort of shocking for me to interact with. it is incredibly hard to relate to him. he sees race in almost everything, and I simply don't. Initially he made me really mad because of his clear race baiting tactics, but I saw that he was not particularly good at it so he became less threatening to me over time to the point of now his essential harmlessness. Now he is a convenient political pinata for easy point scoring.

But back to his particular example my conclusion now is that he is either extremely racist or he was extremely abused by racism in his past. Either way he is in need of counsel for either problem because his way of dealing with it is extremely unhealthy to himself and the community at large. I would guess by his overall behavior that he is nowhere near being able to face up to his problem, but one can always hope.

How this relates to the homosexual cited here is the same conundrum. For me, I go to church, and maybe once a year it is mentioned that homosexuality is a sin, among the many other sins we talk about, and we move along. However, some gays are apparently so repulsed at their desires that they become Christians and obsessively condemn themselves. To me it is as baffling as Ibrahims psycho-drama, and I don't really know how to help these people. I can't relate to homosexuals or racists, and I can't get into that mindset. I can relate to someone who has experienced racism and if that is the case for Ibs I would exhort him to seek help, there are other ways to deal with that than lashing out at the world.

But I feel sorry for these gays, it seems there are a lot of them who have these cravings and wish they didn't have them. I really don't know what you do for them.

[Simple Minded]

Projection is such a transparent and powerful force......
....But I feel sorry for these guys, it seems there are a lot of them who have these cravings and wish they didn't have them. I really don't know what you do for them.

Tis an amazing phenomena to my very small brain. I prefer to label such individuals as binary thinking broad brushers.

They self-characterize as "You are either goose stepping with me 100% of the time or you are stupid, racist, bitter, ______." To many of them, of course members of demographic group A are monolithic thinkers. Until they encounter members of demographic group A who disagree, then they simply split the demographic groups one more time, then another, then another.

"Of course all women think alike! Well, err, no those two don't cause one is black and one is white. And not those two either cause one is old and one is young. and, err, you shouldn't expect the rich woman to think like the poor woman, that would be silly. and well, not those two either cause one is a union member and the other is a scab. and on and on and on."

Never seems to occur to them that each person is a unique individual with a unique perspectives shaped by their own specific experiences/knowledge.

Humans are social individuals...... That's why politics gets so ugly, it is a messy bridge between ideology and reality that can't accomodate all the existing variables. Damn shame there is so much money to be made in either being a victim or being a savior/Robin Hood.

As a rule of thumb, the Robin Hood who seeks political power, more often than not strikes me as a poorly disguised potential diktator. Their battle cry of "You are not smart enough to know that I can run your life better than you!" is a dead giveaway!

The claim of one to be a spokesman for the "______ community," or the "___%" always strikes me a ludricrous. Vagueness often promotes solidarity, we will have plenty of time for bloodletting over the details after we gain power.

This message not endorsed by the International Association of Stupid People.......... but the smartest members of the Opposable Thumb People buy in...

[AzariLoveIran]

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Bravo Mr. Perfect !!!

Also seems true of most political-ideological activists, shortly after they attain self-awareness (age 6 or 8 maybe?).......

they logically conclude "The whole world is fupt duck!!!"

From there it is only a short mental leap to "Life is unfair!"

Gotta credit Thoreau... and Hoffer....... not me.....

Projection is such a transparent and powerful force.

Take our Ibrahim for instance. I think I can say I know of no one more obsessed with race than he is. He can barely discuss any political or non-political issue without interjecting race, or "bigotry". I honestly can't keep up, I am essentially oblivious about race. I am a pedestrian color blind person and have hopes of improving race relations, but race consciousness just doesn't exist in me, I don't find race to be interesting.

So someone like Ibrahim is very sort of shocking for me to interact with. it is incredibly hard to relate to him. he sees race in almost everything, and I simply don't. Initially he made me really mad because of his clear race baiting tactics, but I saw that he was not particularly good at it so he became less threatening to me over time to the point of now his essential harmlessness. Now he is a convenient political pinata for easy point scoring.

But back to his particular example my conclusion now is that he is either extremely racist or he was extremely abused by racism in his past. Either way he is in need of counsel for either problem because his way of dealing with it is extremely unhealthy to himself and the community at large. I would guess by his overall behavior that he is nowhere near being able to face up to his problem, but one can always hope.

How this relates to the homosexual cited here is the same conundrum. For me, I go to church, and maybe once a year it is mentioned that homosexuality is a sin, among the many other sins we talk about, and we move along. However, some gays are apparently so repulsed at their desires that they become Christians and obsessively condemn themselves. To me it is as baffling as Ibrahims psycho-drama, and I don't really know how to help these people. I can't relate to homosexuals or racists, and I can't get into that mindset. I can relate to someone who has experienced racism and if that is the case for Ibs I would exhort him to seek help, there are other ways to deal with that than lashing out at the world.

But I feel sorry for these gays, it seems there are a lot of them who have these cravings and wish they didn't have them. I really don't know what you do for them.

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MP , you addressing 2 issues

racism and homosexuality

Fact is, there are different races, Chinese race, African race, Caucasian race (KavKaz) and and ..

acknowledging this fact, and, each his/her own, respect and equality, does not constitute RACISM

Racism is when one has negative prejudice, looks down to other races

and

2B frank

Ibrahim is correct in that respect

western culture and civilization, for "historical reason", was not exposed, not used to other races .. except of Africa in form of slavery, or South/North American natives, @ the time when west was entering industrial & modernity

Before that, say, in Middle ages, when Europe in dark ages, there were no "other" races in Europe

That is why, Western culture, civilization, folks, have not developed the tolerant and equal mindset towards other races

Meaning, sad to say, west is racist .. if, one scratches the paint, racism rust comes out

Any westerner saying he not racist, pretty much lying

In Middle East things a bit different

Middle East has been exposed to massive over-run, mix, of races .. Arabs, Turkic tribes, Mongols, India, Chinese, Greek, Armenians, Assyrians, Hebrew tribe and 100s of other "distinct" racial tribes .. ME mingled and lived with all those races, intermarried for 1000s of yrs and and and .. that is why, ME might be "apartheidist", meaning distinct separation, but considering equal and respected .. Jews lived in ME for 1000s of yrs, 1000s of yrs before Islam, in peace and harmony .. no racism

re homosexuals

Homosexuality is a sexual abnormality, like many abnormality humans might have .. it should be perceived as such, with it's pecular rights and position in society .. notion, it is just a (sexual) preference, distorts the facts and leads to all those psychological "genuflect-up" situation .. again .. ME has settled this issue since 1000s of yrs


Ibrahim has a valid case


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[Mr. Perfect]

That is why, Western culture, civilization, folks, have not developed the tolerant and equal mindset towards other races

In Middle East things a bit different

Middle East has been exposed to massive over-run, mix, of races .. Arabs, Turkic tribes, Mongols, India, Chinese, Greek, Armenians, Assyrians, Hebrew tribe and 100s of other "distinct" racial tribes .. ME mingled and lived with all those races, intermarried for 1000s of yrs and and and .. that is why, ME might be "apartheidist", meaning distinct separation, but considering equal and respected

Two irreconcilable statements Az.

In US racists operated under the cover of "separate but equal" (please google) during segregation. Sounds like same attitude in ME.

.. Jews lived in ME for 1000s of yrs, 1000s of yrs before Islam, in peace and harmony .. no racism
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Jews always well, well, well under 1% of the population. Not really an accomplishment.

[Typhoon]

The Ameri Con | Why the Right Can’t Win the Gay Marriage Fight

For the better part of 2,000 years the meaning of marriage was stable because the authority of Christianity was constant. In an age when the Church no longer supplies the institutional framework for family life, the definition of marriage has become radically uncertain. Into this fluid environment—in which individualism or atomism is once again rising to the fore, as in the Roman Empire—the new fact of homosexuality was gradually introduced. The result, same-sex marriage, has shocked conservatives. But this innovation has moved so far so quickly only because it is not at all out of step with the institutions and ideas of our time.

Daniel McCarthy is editor of The American Conservative.