The Crisis of Meaning

[noddy]

For the longest time I thought it was just about jettisoning original, ancestral sin from the cultural ambience but instead, we have more of it than ever. The protest wasn't to rid us of superstitious notions but a complaint that the accounting books weren't precise enough and too geared towards compartmentalization and not subject to politicalization & utilization.

original sin is well amsuing against the current cultural backdrop.

never has it been in clearer focus!

[Parodite]

I wanted to clarify my post. I wasn't intending it as a judgement of good or bad, but my observation is that motive turned out to be an attack and proscription on notions of debt-forgiveness- a very provocative thing in itself.

For the longest time I thought it was just about jettisoning original, ancestral sin from the cultural ambience but instead, we have more of it than ever. The protest wasn't to rid us of superstitious notions but a complaint that the accounting books weren't precise enough and too geared towards compartmentalization and not subject to politicalization & utilization.

Not sure what to make of the life of Dr. Sin. There seem many aspects to it and motivations to keep or get rid of the concept. The need to identify a guilty cause because randomness and nihilism leave us in uneasy limbo, unable to do anything about it.

CO2, the WEF, the Military Industrial Complex, Trump, the Deranged WOKE, Religion in General, Atheism in general, Smartphones making us Dumber, Female bullies who Cancel, our own Dark Side and Shadow, Fearing Fear, Muslims, Jews, Central Banks, Techno Bureaucrats, the CCP, Greed, Viruses (all of them), Bad Music, Post-Christian self-loathing, abandonment. Ancestral Sin just a reminder that life always sucks and will do so forever.

The inability to identify The Only Evil One when all is just a stinky amorphous mud. Precision is required but impossible.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

The question of placing blame is never as tough as who or what can forgive.

Scapegoating is unifying, limitless and comes from within a community but debt-forgiveness is disruptive, limiting, and comes from without.

[noddy]

forgiveness means tacit approval of the cancelled one.

one must be steadfast in ones righteousness and purity of purporse.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Perhaps. My hangup would be on the word 'approval'.

Pope's proverb, "to err is human, to forgive divine" may not be universally applicable or self-evident to the human condition as some thought. It's not all that clear that people will readily admit their own mistakes to begin with.

There is a bit of provocation in forgiving or claiming the ability.

And heading away from the abstraction of it, the jubilees that litter bronze age societies -- where forgiveness and debt were material matters-- often, practically, merely amounted to the new warlord saying, "all old accounts are settled and 'ya don't have to pay the old warlord but don't be late with me!"

And the gods&spirits who could settle debts were either weak, disinterred or downright scary.

[Nonc Hilaire]

The Christian concept of forgiveness is not applicable to debt.

The correct concept would be justice tempered by mercy.

[noddy]

wage slavery holds our society together, debt forgiveness would be an atom bomb in the middle of all that.

middle class kids with 10's of K of student debt they cant pay back, or low end working class, with dual income families barely living week to week.

you cant forgive one only.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

The Christian concept of forgiveness is not applicable to debt.

The correct concept would be justice tempered by mercy.

As Christian self-conceptions, most especially as a surface cultural ambience, is what is being disputed and/or rejected; it is of little utility and unnecessarily argumentative to insist upon anything out of the general.

The language of debt has a long and involving history in Christianity used to describe the very concepts and relations of [communicative] justice and mercy; justification and satisfaction; atonement and redemption; man's relation to God and to man.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

wage slavery holds our society together, debt forgiveness would be an atom bomb in the middle of all that.

middle class kids with 10's of K of student debt they cant pay back, or low end working class, with dual income families barely living week to week.

you cant forgive one only.

Yes. Strong centralizing societies cannot handle it materially or psychologically. Forgive just one and resentful factions arrive now expecting their turn and it becomes a mechanism where every few years some new band wants their spoils and the whole system becomes paralyzed.

And forgiving them all in one full swoop doesn't work out much better either. The total control one would need to make that work would be oppressive if it were even possible.

[noddy]

Its even more than that - its the amount of services we get, the amount of things that just happen in our society because of desperate wage slavery to maintain housing

nobody gets out of bed at 1 in the morning to clean lavender off the toilet walls at the hospital because some drug addict had an episode without heaps of pressure to do so.

ive lived in places without wage slavery - you get what you get, during normal business hours, as the person can be bothered.

no debt, no housing stress - our countries would look like south east asia real fast - or maybe like old school appalachia in US terms.

you dont get new york if people arent desperate to stay out of the gutter.

[Parodite]

Air Jordan on a roll here. Not sure if and how it relates to debt forgiveness and justice massaged by merci, it seems to fall under the umbrella of voluntary sacrifice and serving others for a better tomorrow.

WATCH: The most important speech Jordan Peterson has ever given

Not sure about he voodoo version of Christ paying for my sins, forgiving my debts.. so I will live. I'm always looking for the practical and causal so translate these meta-sophical concepts into something that makes sense. On the animalistic level (my favorite domain) to forgive debt means to share and not ask back what was yours: you give unconditionally.

To forgive means you don't expect anything in return. This urge naturally comes from the parental instinct to feed and protect off-spring. God the Father (and mother Mary) illustrates the origin of it all. If God wasn't a Father-Mother but say a Brother, Sister, or Neighbor...people would naturally be skeptical about God's ability to care and give unconditionally.

If however the Parent does not forgive nor loves unconditionally and instead is demanding something in return... forgiveness and merci disappear from the radar as well. Many ancient Gods demanded payment and sacrifice. Slaughtering, sacrificing innocent lambs and children as a gift to keep a God happy and reciprocal is an ancient habit. Paying taxes comes to mind too.

"If you promise to do it voluntary I won't force you to do it" is a popular hybrid carrot-stick approach. Seems like best is if you forgive for no reason at all.

[Nonc Hilaire]

To forgive means you don't expect anything in return.

To forgive means you fully understand and empathize with the offender, and you can identify the same personality flaws in yourself. This is why only Jesus can completely forgive.

The seven deadly sins is a good checklist. The specifics of the offense are often extreme and peculiar, but all can be understood as forms of the cardinal vices.

Forgiveness also requires one to pray that everything good snd desirable happens to the offender. This is incredibly difficult, but with practice and perseverance one can free themselves from resentment.

[Parodite]

To forgive means you don't expect anything in return.

To forgive means you fully understand and empathize with the offender, and you can identify the same personality flaws in yourself. This is why only Jesus can completely forgive.

Does this mean Jesus has the same character flaws as a Hamas murderer or of a boorish farmer like Netanyahu who has been feeding those Hamas pigs? Of course, there are a zillion more individuals somewhere on the spectrum, including us. Is Jesus like everybody else all-in-one? There is another voodoo alarm ringing in my head... when "only Jesus can completely forgive".

The seven deadly sins is a good checklist. The specifics of the offense are often extreme and peculiar, but all can be understood as forms of the cardinal vices.

Forgiveness also requires one to pray that everything good and desirable happens to the offender. This is incredibly difficult, but with practice and perseverance one can free themselves from resentment.

To empathize with a revenge killer is not too difficult for me. To forgive those who engage in massacres as a payback to other massacres is a piece of cake; reciprocal behaviors, eye for an eye, a dollar for a dollar or a vote, what have you. To empathize with those who kill and torture for no other reason than sadistic pleasure is problematic, however. You just take them out of society without the need to empathize, comprehend etc.

[Nonc Hilaire]

To empathize with a revenge killer is not too difficult for me. To forgive those who engage in massacres as a payback to other massacres is a piece of cake; reciprocal behaviors, eye for an eye, a dollar for a dollar or a vote, what have you. To empathize with those who kill and torture for no other reason than sadistic pleasure is problematic, however. You just take them out of society without the need to empathize, comprehend etc.

Forgiving others isn’t something you do for them.

It is something you must do to relieve yourself of resentment. The goal is to recenter your emotions so they do not color your rationality.

Forgiveness has different vernacular meanings. These are generally lame. Since this is the Philosophy section I’m being specific about the term.

[Parodite]

If forgiveness would not mean different things in all kinds of vernaculars, how could it be interesting. Your vernacular that says that you forgive for your own sake is a psychologically sensible observation. Maybe also God forgives for the same reason; to be a punishing prick 24/7 doesn't pay off well.

I suppose loving your enemy also serves your own interest. As does taking care of your own kids unconditionally; it rubs nicely with the selfish gene. Let’s call it a win-win, with an eye for an eye the loss-loss version. Loss-win and win-loss beg some questions.

Jesus the only one capable of fully forgiving remains mysterious in this context. Whatever his capabilities, he irritated too many people and was murdered. Paying with his life many people consider a sacrifice he made. But maybe here too it was in his own interest mostly. He left behind a lot of confused people, friends and family who had to see him die in agony - something not uncommon, we all share the experience. Tested and approved by his Father, who didn't save him however nor answer the phone during his last seconds of earthly consciousness.

Jesus was raised by a single parent mom and resolved this by adopting and identifying God as his new Father, obsessing with the scriptures looking for Dad, and then no sign of life while dying alone in agony... still insisting his Father was there ready to receive him, given his “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit”... means he even forgave his Father for not being around when he needed him most.

To forgive God, your father, is indeed perhaps the highest expression of forgiveness. Especially for a hardcore atheist it is better to forgive God he doesn't exist as it saves you from eternal resentment.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

If forgiveness would not mean different things in all kinds of vernaculars, how could it be interesting. Your vernacular that says that you forgive for your own sake is a psychologically sensible observation. Maybe also God forgives for the same reason; to be a punishing prick 24/7 doesn't pay off well.

I suppose loving your enemy also serves your own interest. As does taking care of your own kids unconditionally; it rubs nicely with the selfish gene. Let’s call it a win-win, with an eye for an eye the loss-loss version. Loss-win and win-loss beg some questions.

Jesus the only one capable of fully forgiving remains mysterious in this context. Whatever his capabilities, he irritated too many people and was murdered. Paying with his life many people consider a sacrifice he made. But maybe here too it was in his own interest mostly. He left behind a lot of confused people, friends and family who had to see him die in agony - something not uncommon, we all share the experience. Tested and approved by his Father, who didn't save him however nor answer the phone during his last seconds of earthly consciousness.

Jesus was raised by a single parent mom and resolved this by adopting and identifying God as his new Father, obsessing with the scriptures looking for Dad, and then no sign of life while dying alone in agony... still insisting his Father was there ready to receive him, given his “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit”... means he even forgave his Father for not being around when he needed him most.

To forgive God, your father, is indeed perhaps the highest expression of forgiveness. Especially for a hardcore atheist it is better to forgive God he doesn't exist as it saves you from eternal resentment.

Nietzsche, is that you? Didn't know 'ya took the eternal recurrence thing quite so seriously.

"God is dead: but as the human race is constituted, there will perhaps be caves for millenniums yet, in which people will show his shadow. And we — we have still to overcome his shadow!"

The problem with God is Dead (or non-existent) culturally is that the only solution is to force everyone to be God-- which is a miserable affair only the Germans could've dreamed up.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Its even more than that - its the amount of services we get, the amount of things that just happen in our society because of desperate wage slavery to maintain housing

nobody gets out of bed at 1 in the morning to clean lavender off the toilet walls at the hospital because some drug addict had an episode without heaps of pressure to do so.

ive lived in places without wage slavery - you get what you get, during normal business hours, as the person can be bothered.

no debt, no housing stress - our countries would look like south east asia real fast - or maybe like old school appalachia in US terms.

you dont get new york if people arent desperate to stay out of the gutter.

Yes but it's more than even that-- you don't get new york just out of desperation.

Now, maybe one can maintain a certain level of functioning with desperation and fear, long after the original cohesive bonds loosen.

[noddy]

I have no doubts its more than that.

It was the somewhat obnoxious, muttley outsiders view of things based on the fact that If i got each of a Greek, Italian, Anglo, Han, Brahmin, Persian etc grumpy ole men.

Id get some very serious , but very different, opinions on the other qualities

one thing all the worlds mega cities share is a desperate underlcass providing reasonably priced services with a dream to become more than they currently are.

.. and I truly believe in our anglosphere world the flickers with their hands on the levers have decided to push that desperation level as a path to their own comfort

Aka their will be no forgiveness

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

I have no doubts its more than that.

It was the somewhat obnoxious, muttley outsiders view of things based on the fact that If i got each of a Greek, Italian, Anglo, Han, Brahmin, Persian etc grumpy ole men.

Id get some very serious , but very different, opinions on the other qualities

Obnoxious? Us city ghetto folks?

It's true, I wasn't traipsing the lazy jungles of southeast asia but I do know a thing or two about the ethnics. If speaking openly, they'd be liable to send our delicate to the fainting couches. It would be a tiny bit of plain veracity, romanticism and then a dash of dopiness.

[noddy]

If speaking openly, they'd be liable to send our delicate to the fainting couches. It would be a tiny bit of plain veracity, romanticism and then a dash of dopiness.

yes.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

[Parodite]

Investigating Islam with Dr. Jay Smith (2 Corinthians 10:5)

It seems to me he has a point. Slam dunk convincing exposition. Did Mr. P. find a new occupation?

"Closing down Islam". Good first step cleaning out the barn. mad mullahs still laughing, ofcourse. No Mecca, no Mohammed... just fantasies, replicating Judeo-christian narratives from Jerusalem into a new funky wonderland. Mememecca and Mememedina...

ChatGPT thought it good material for a rap lyrics:

(Verse 1)
From Mememecca to Mememedina, the road unwinds,
A journey through memes, where humor combines.
On the road to Jerusalem, where history defines,
Memes are the modern tales, the digital signs.

(Chorus)
Through Mememecca, Mememedina, to Jerusalem's gate,
Memes pave the way, in this global debate.
Where laughter unites, no room for hate,
In this meme-filled journey, our destinies await.

(Verse 2)
In Mememecca's streets, where jesters roam,
Creativity sparks, in each meme's chromosome.
Mememedina's vibe, feels like home,
Memes bridge cultures, no matter where you're from.

(Chorus)
Through Mememecca, Mememedina, to Jerusalem's gate,
Memes pave the way, in this global debate.
Where laughter unites, no room for hate,
In this meme-filled journey, our destinies await.

(Bridge)
On this road, from east to west,
Memes break barriers, they're the best.
In Jerusalem's tale, where history's impressed,
Memes add chapters, with humor addressed.

(Verse 3)
Onward to Jerusalem, where stories unfold,
Memes weave through time, a tale retold.
Mememecca, Mememedina, in laughter we hold,
In this journey together, our fates foretold.

(Chorus)
Through Mememecca, Mememedina, to Jerusalem's gate,
Memes pave the way, in this global debate.
Where laughter unites, no room for hate,
In this meme-filled journey, our destinies await.

(Outro)
So follow the path, where memes pave the way,
From Mememecca to Mememedina, every single day.
In Jerusalem's echoes, where history may sway,
Memes keep us connected, in this grand display.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Some of his sources are out of date and others a bit disingenuous and self-serving.

For all Patricia Crone, the matriarch of revisionism, was wrong about; she may have been right that western academies don't treat the subject seriously or are deferential to a degree no other religion gets treated for social reasons and furthers the disrepute of academia.

[Parodite]

Yea it is self serving... he wants to sell the idea that you are waaaaaay better of with Jesus than with Muhammad. But is he about 80% right? 20%?

Investigating the past scientifically seems to me a necessary part of any equation. Jews and Christians are rather relaxed about such investigations and open to debate. If it would turn out that Hero Prophet and Quran are not at all what you believed them to be, that's a very red pill to swallow for a dedicated Muslim. Too red I'm afraid. Expect trouble, death threats.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

I think it's fair to say that just because someone has a partisan angle doesn't make them suspicious or incorrect.

At the same time there is a difference between marshalling a case as a lawyer would, by arranging a tremendous amount of evidence to support a theory; and inferring a theory from the evidence at hand as a historian-in-the-broad is (hopefully) trained to do.

I interpret it closer to the former; not just because of the style, manner and forum for the speech but in his use of certain material that I'm aware of as an interested laymen sprinkled in there (and at this point I'm in the middle of session 2.)

-----------------------

As for my own interpretations, of course I think it's better to be a Christian- I am a Christian. And obviously I have no special attachment to Muslim historgraphy, records and to the Quran itself.

I do think there is a very, very interesting story to the construction of the Quran that we just don't have. Maybe the greatest disappointment of the region at the end of the late classical period is that our scribes in the 2 empires for the area both ended up inveterate liars. Both were certainly in a period where the politically correct answer was more important to record than actual chronology and accounts or facts. Why that is is a question unto itself but it leaves us in the dark for source material where all this activity is taking place.