Syria

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Hans Bulvai
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

RPM wrote:
Maverick wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote: Was Saddam bad? Yes. No dispute. Is what is in place better?
What is in place now is definitely better
Hans is an Iraqi. He is speaking from first hand experience.
Hans was born to a Lebanese father and an Iraqi mother.
Grew up in both places until moving to the US at the age of 14. Schooling was done in lebanon. Summer breaks were spent in Iraq in the 70s and 80s. 13 of them in total.
Grandfather spent three years in Abu Ghraib. His crime was he was a lawyer in a law firm that represented companies like Seimens and and others. Thr partners in the office where implicated in bribary charges and were hung. Judge told my grandfather they gave you peanuts and did this under your nose. He was innocent even by the judge's own admission but had to do time. Oh, and all of his wealth was confiscated. Was only left with the family house. Secret police came knockin' on the door, very politely. Asked for him to come with them for an "interview". He told them one minute please so that he can bring his high blood pressure medication. They said no need; "you won't be late". Rotted for three years in Abu Ghraib. I remember some of the visits. Big room full of professors, lawyers, engineers, etc... Sunni, Shia, Kurd and Christian. Made no difference. Baathism is non-secterian. Only requirement is loyalty to the regime. Most of those in that room had loyalty to the country. In Saddam's Iraq, that qualifies as guilty.

No one said that things were hunky dory. But I was always amazed when I would hear people talk about Saddam as if he killed their children when just months before his invasion of Kuwait, he was the good guy. Then with the flip of a switch, he was the devil. Why? Because he invaded Kuwait? Hell, he was on his way to Saudi Arabia. Had he taken over, he would have probably eliminated Wahhabism that Azari hates so much. Was he a good guy? No. Was he better than the rest and what is in place today? Yes. At least Iraq was a unified strong country. Corruption was unheard off (punishable by death). Today, in one of the world's largest producers of oil, electricity is barely on 6 hours a day. No clean running water, and nothing can be done without a bribe; to name a few. Ask the many Iraqi refugees who would kill to go back to a peaceful Iraq. Today, they could give a lavender who rules it so long as they can be safe in their own houses. All that is gone.
Last edited by Hans Bulvai on Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Crocus sativus wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:.

The question is not if he was, he was supressing everyone equally, the question is why? C'mon Azari, are the MEK not Kurds? The Kurds are the Joker card for everyone in that region. The ones that Saddam supportred get killed by Iranians, and the ones that Iran support get killed by Saddam. I am sure you have no problem with the MEK getting killed since you would consider them terrorists, no?

.


Mujahadeen-e-Khalq have nothing to do with Kurds.

Founded on September 5, 1965 by a group of leftist Muslim Iranian university students as an Islamic and Marxist political mass movement, the MEK was originally devoted to armed struggle against the Shah of Iran, capitalism, and Western imperialism. In the immediate aftermath of the 1979 Iranian Revolution, the MEK and the Tudeh Party at first chose to side with the clerics led by Ayatollah Khomeini against the liberals, nationalists and other moderate forces within the revolution. A power struggle ensued, and by mid-1981, MEK was fighting street battles against the Islamic Revolutionary Guards. During the Iran–Iraq War, the group was given refuge by Saddam Hussein and mounted attacks on Iran from within Iraqi territory.
Oh? So Iran is killing Iranians that it deems to be terrorist? Ok for Iran to do but not for Saddam to do?
Sorry Azari. I was being misleading on purpose to make a point. The Kurds that he gassed, as horrible as that was, was justified by the state at that time because as you very well know, the Kurds were mounting a campaing against the government using real terrorist tactics (blowing up cars in Baghdad, hitting government buildings and other institutions). They were supported partly by Iran AND you do know who else right? I am sure you know.

Maverick wrote:.
Hans Bulvai wrote:.
And who imposed history's most vicious and immoral sanctions that saw the death of a million children ?
.


no proof that sanctions killed million children, There is no way million people children died because of sanctions.

.



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RPM wrote:.
Hans is an Iraqi. He is speaking from first hand experience.
.

Hans said he Lebanese [/quote]

Hans a mix. 50/50.



Azari wrote:
Maverick wrote:.

Let us be clear here ,US and Western forces did not overthrow a benevolent leader, they over threw a ruthless dictator. Yes George Bush and his neocon buddies lied to world. US shouldn't have been involved in Iraq in first place. But that doesn't mean everything was hunky dory under Saddam

.


if in doubt about Saddam, a 4 minutes clip should refresh you memory


L64WSPZ5mNk



Hans, Arabs are divided, everybody on a different page, fighting each other instead the enemy, and, their priorities wrong, humiliated, their values & culture (Islam) ridiculed, anything in the book thrown at them

At the end, Saddam did realize he was coned by western Arab cronies, Saudi and others, and, "tried" to turn against the west .. Saddam (and Hans) did not realize to throw the petrol colonial beast out of ME Arab nationalism is not enough but all ME must unite (same mistake Shah did) .. Ayatollahs hit the nail on the head realizing this no Persian or Arab play, this an Islamic play

in a nutshell, Saddam was neither a good strategist, neither a good politician, neither a good military man, neither a good revolutionary, he was a 2bit durian, a thug .. what a disaster for Arabs considering him as a Hero



.
Saddam was a hero because he was the best of the bunch. If you want to compare him to the emirs, Mubarak, Bin Ali etc... he was the best of that septic tank. Not any different than your friend in Demascus. Ultimately, they are all scumbags. But the scumbags are all falling. Is it getting better? Hardly. But like Ibrahim said, it remains a personal choice whether chaos or dictatorship is better. Our opinion does not matter but we can ask those brewing in the stew in about 5 years what they think.

And you keep saying this is an Islamic play then inthe same breath condemn all Sunnis as being traitors?? How do you want Sunnis to back Iran when Iran is calling them beasts and traitors? How is that rhetoric any different than theidealogy of the cancerous Wahhabi strain?

If Hans (and Arabs) had their way, none of this would be the order of the day. You don't think they know what is going on? But very powerful forces (from within and out) are working against them. But you can't accuse them ofnot trying.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Azrael »

Things are starting to look even worse for Assad.

Now Palestinians are joining the rebels.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Azrael »

Hans Bulvai wrote: Fair enough. Al-Bakr followed by Saddam. Weren't they cousins anyway??
Was Saddam bad? Yes. No dispute. Is what is in place better?
No; but who knows, perhaps it will get better now that the crusaders are gone, and perhaps there will be improvement after the next election. Ok, probably not.

You're right about the sanctions.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Doc »

Azrael wrote:Things are starting to look even worse for Assad.

Now Palestinians are joining the rebels.
I was reading yesterday that Assad had shelled a Palestinian refugee camp.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Bye bye Syria.
As much as I agree that people should fight for their dignity; this is not the way forward.
The dicktator or chaos question is becoming much easier to answer.
Syria is on its way to division... The Kurds will be supported by Israel. Sunnis by the emirs and Turkey. Alawis by Iran. Druze by Druze. Christians will probably be fucked.

Maybe it is not partition in the proper sense, but like the author says, more like Iraq.

Syria: The descent into Holy War
years after the US invasion in 2003. It fosters a belief among Syria's non-Sunni Muslim minorities, and Sunnis associated with the government as soldiers or civil servants, that there will be no safe future for them in Syria if the rebels win. In one version of the video, several of which are circulating, the men who are beheaded are identified as officers belonging to the 2.5 million-strong Alawite community. This is the Shia sect to which President Bashar al-Assad and core members of his regime belong. The beheadings, so proudly filmed by the perpetrators, may well convince them that they have no alternative but to fight to the end.

The video underlines a startling contradiction in the policy of the US and its allies. In the past week, 130 countries have recognised the National Coalition of Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces as the legitimate representatives of the Syrian people. But, at the same time, the US has denounced the al-Nusra Front, the most effective fighting force of the rebels, as being terrorists and an al-Qa'ida affiliate. Paradoxically, the US makes almost exactly same allegations of terrorism against al-Nusra as does the Syrian government. Even more bizarrely, though so many states now recognise the National Coalition as the legitimate representative of the Syrian people, it is unclear if the rebels inside Syria do so. Angry crowds in rebel-held areas of northern Syria on Friday chanted "we are all al-Nusra" as they demonstrated against the US decision.

Videos posted on YouTube play such a central role in the propaganda war in Syria that questions always have to be asked about their authenticity and origin. In the case of the beheading video, the details look all too convincing. Nadim Houry, the deputy director for Human Rights Watch in the Middle East and North Africa, has watched the video many times to identify the circumstances, perpetrators and location where the killings took place. He has no doubts about its overall authenticity, but says that mention of one district suggests it might be in Deir el-Zhor (in eastern Syria). But people in the area immediately north of Homs are adamant the beheadings took place there. The victims have not been identified. The first time a version of the film was shown was on pro-government Sama TV on 26 November, but it has been widely viewed on YouTube in Syria only over the past week.

The film begins by showing two middle-aged men handcuffed together sitting on a settee in a house, surrounded by their captors who sometimes slap and beat them. They are taken outside into the street. A man in a black shirt is manhandled and kicked into lying down with his head on a concrete block. A boy, who looks to be about 11 or 12 years old, cuts at his neck with a machete, but does not quite sever it. Later a man finishes the job and cuts the head off. The second man in a blue shirt is also forced to lie with his head on a block and is beheaded. The heads are brandished in front of the camera and later laid on top of the bodies. The boy smiles as he poses with a rifle beside a headless corpse.

The execution video is very similar to those once made by al-Qa'ida in Iraq to demonstrate their mercilessness towards their enemies. This is scarcely surprising since many of the most experienced al-Nusra fighters boast that they have until recently been fighting the predominantly Shia government of Iraq as part of the local franchise of al-Qa'ida franchise. Their agenda is wholly sectarian, and they have shown greater enthusiasm for slaughtering Shias, often with bombs detonated in the middle of crowds in markets or outside mosques, than for fighting Americans.

The Syrian uprising, which began in March 2011, was not always so bloodthirsty or so dominated by the Sunnis who make up 70 per cent of the 23 million-strong Syrian population. At first, demonstrations were peaceful and the central demands of the protesters were for democratic rule and human rights as opposed to a violent, arbitrary and autocratic government. There are Syrians who claim that the people against the regime remains to this day the central feature of the uprising, but there is compelling evidence that the movement has slid towards sectarian Islamic fundamentalism intent on waging holy war.

The execution video is the most graphic illustration of deepening religious bigotry on the part of the rebels, but it is not the only one. Another recent video shows Free Syrian Army fighters burning and desecrating a Shia husseiniyah (a religious meeting house similar to a mosque) in Idlib in northern Syria. They chant prayers of victory as they set fire to the building, set fire to flags used in Shia religious processions and stamp on religious pictures. If the FSA were to repeat this assault on a revered Shia shrine such as the Sayyida Zeinab mosque in Damascus, to which Iranian and Iraqi pilgrims have flooded in the past and which is now almost encircled by rebels, then there could be an explosion of religious hatred and strife between Sunni and Shia across the Middle East. Iraqi observers warn that it was the destruction of the Shia shrine in Samarra, north of Baghdad, by an al-Qa'ida bomb in 2006 that detonated a sectarian war in which tens of thousands died.

The analogy with Iraq is troubling for the US and British governments. They and their allies are eager for Syria to avoid repeating the disastrous mistakes they made during the Iraqi occupation. Ideally, they would like to remove the regime, getting rid of Bashar al-Assad and the present leadership, but not dissolving the government machinery or introducing revolutionary change as they did in Baghdad by transferring power from the Sunnis to the Shia and the Kurds. This provoked a furious counter-reaction from Baathists and Sunnis who found themselves marginalised and economically impoverished.

Washington wants Assad out, but is having difficulty riding the Sunni revolutionary tiger. The Western powers have long hoped for a split in the Syrian elite, but so far there is little sign of this happening. "If you take defections as a measure of political cohesion, then there haven't been any serious ones," said a diplomat in Damascus.

Syria today resembles Iraq nine years ago in another disturbing respect. I have now been in Damascus for 10 days, and every day I am struck by the fact that the situation in areas of Syria I have visited is wholly different from the picture given to the world both by foreign leaders and by the foreign media. The last time I felt like this was in Baghdad in late 2003, when every Iraqi knew the US-led occupation was proving a disaster just as George W Bush, Tony Blair and much of the foreign media were painting a picture of progress towards stability and democracy under the wise tutelage of Washington and its carefully chosen Iraqi acolytes.

The picture of Syria most common believed abroad is of the rebels closing in on the capital as the Assad government faces defeat in weeks or, at most, a few months. The Secretary General of Nato, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, said last week that the regime is "approaching collapse". The foreign media consensus is that the rebels are making sweeping gains on all fronts and the end may be nigh. But when one reaches Damascus, it is to discover that the best informed Syrians and foreign diplomats say, on the contrary, that the most recent rebel attacks in the capital had been thrown back by a government counteroffensive. They say that the rebel territorial advances, which fuelled speculation abroad that the Syrian government might implode, are partly explained by a new Syrian army strategy to pull back from indefensible outposts and bases and concentrate troops in cities and towns.

At times, Damascus resounds with the boom of artillery fire and the occasional car bomb, but it is not besieged. I drove 160 kilometres north to Homs, Syria's third largest city with a population of 2.3 million, without difficulty. Homs, once the heart of the uprising, is in the hands of the government, aside from the Old City, which is held by the FSA. Strongholds of the FSA in Damascus have been battered by shellfire and most of their inhabitants have fled to other parts of the capital. The director of the 1,000-bed Tishreen military hospital covering much of southern Syria told me that he received 15 to 20 soldiers wounded every day, of whom about 20 per cent died. This casualty rate indicates sniping, assassinations and small-scale ambushes, but not a fight to the finish.

This does not mean that the government is in a happy position. It has been unable to recapture southern Aleppo or the Old City in Homs. It does not have the troops to garrison permanently parts of Damascus it has retaken. Its overall diplomatic and military position is slowly eroding and the odds against it are lengthening, but it is a long way from total defeat, unless there is direct military intervention by foreign powers, as in Libya or Iraq, and this does not seem likely.

This misperception of the reality on the ground in Syria is fuelled in part by propaganda, but more especially by inaccurate and misleading reporting by the media where bias towards the rebels and against the government is unsurpassed since the height of the Cold War. Exaggerated notions are given of rebel strength and popularity. The Syrian government is partially responsible for this. By excluding all but a few foreign journalists, the regime has created a vacuum of information that is naturally filled by its enemies. In the event, a basically false and propagandistic account of events in Syria has been created by a foreign media credulous in using pro-opposition sources as if they were objective reporting.

The execution video is a case in point. I have not met a Syrian in Damascus who has not seen it. It is having great influence on how Syrians judge their future, but the mainstream media outside Syria has scarcely mentioned it. Some may be repulsed by its casual savagery, but more probably it is not shown because it contradicts so much of what foreign leaders and reporters claim is happening here.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

And of course there is this.


Nasrallah Tells March 14 Not to Await Hariri's Return via Damascus Airport as 'Battle in Syria is Far from Over'
...

“I want to draw your attention to the fact that you are making wrong calculations” concerning the Syrian crisis, Nasrallah added, addressing the March 14 camp.

“You are boycotting (any meeting attended by the government) and preventing the adoption of a new electoral law,” Hizbullah's leader said, noting that March 14 are betting that “within one or two days, within one or two months, the Syrian regime will fall.”

Nasrallah said reports about an imminent fall of the Syrian regime “are not new.”

“From the very first day, some princes, kings and presidents and their followers in the March 14 camp said that the regime will fall in two months,” he added.

“They put one deadline after the other, but two years passed and nothing happened. If you're betting on certain information, your information is wrong. Let any just person open Syria's map and see the areas held by the regime and the opposition and decide whether the regime will fall or not,” Nasrallah went on to say.


...

Nasrallah said “whoever thinks that the (Syrian) opposition is capable of winning militarily is very delusional.”

...
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Maverick »

Saudis are thinking tactically not strategically right now, they are trying to cut Iran down to size . How long before victors( presumably FSA) start asking for Al Saud's ouster? Syria is the last dictatorship( non royalty) in that region.It wont be long before Jordan falls( after all it has 70% Palestinian population). If FSA gets hold of chemical weapons all bets are off.

I personally have aversion to dictators like Assad and Saddam and I don't personally care either way. Wont be long before Ahmedinejad falls.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Crocus sativus »

Hans Bulvai wrote:.

Bye bye Syria.

As much as I agree that people should fight for their dignity; this is not the way forward.

The dicktator or chaos question is becoming much easier to answer.

Syria is on its way to division... The Kurds will be supported by Israel. Sunnis by the emirs and Turkey.

Alawis by Iran. Druze by Druze. Christians will probably be fucked.

.


Glad you see the mistake

but

too late, Hans, too late

look, Hans

if the goal of Syrians was to overthrow Assad .. and they had the numbers to do so (meaning lots of people unhappy)

if so

why not have a general strike , to paralyze everything .. like Iranians did to overthrow the Shah

why this destruction of all Syria when it was clear that overwhelming majority of Syrians were not on Wahhabi and Salfi and Zionist and Brtis and CIA side

result is all Syria is destroyed, the oldest continuously inhabited city in human history, Damascus, destroyed

Who benefits ? not the Arabs .. Shaikhs & Amirs stolen your guy's money and bought real estate in London .. Harriri has $ 1+ Billion real estate in London, just put a block in market to sell, 500 million British Pound .. where did he get that money ? invented something ?

Was mistake .. should have listened to Iranians that said from the beginning the 2 parties should sit down and settle it brotherly

too late, Hans, too late


.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Too late indeed.

As for Harriri's money. The joke is: Ask where he got all of his millions from just not the first million.

Look Azari, there was no dispute between us on things ending badly. I want Asad to go based on emotion not reason. But the fact is that what kept him in power for so long is what is also responsible for what is going on. Ultimately, the Syrian people are the losers. That to me is a tragedy.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Maverick wrote:Saudis are thinking tactically not strategically right now, they are trying to cut Iran down to size . How long before victors( presumably FSA) start asking for Al Saud's ouster? Syria is the last dictatorship( non royalty) in that region.It wont be long before Jordan falls( after all it has 70% Palestinian population). If FSA gets hold of chemical weapons all bets are off.

I personally have aversion to dictators like Assad and Saddam and I don't personally care either way. Wont be long before Ahmedinejad falls.
One of the emirs/ministers/some big shot in the Saudi government gave a press conference about the situation in the region and put it boldly "Saudi Arabia's interests in the region are aligned with those of the United States". Al Saud has money and Pakistanis to prop it up. I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon; or at least for the forseeable future.

Not so sure about Ahmedinejad falling to be honest.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Maverick »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Maverick wrote:Saudis are thinking tactically not strategically right now, they are trying to cut Iran down to size . How long before victors( presumably FSA) start asking for Al Saud's ouster? Syria is the last dictatorship( non royalty) in that region.It wont be long before Jordan falls( after all it has 70% Palestinian population). If FSA gets hold of chemical weapons all bets are off.

I personally have aversion to dictators like Assad and Saddam and I don't personally care either way. Wont be long before Ahmedinejad falls.
One of the emirs/ministers/some big shot in the Saudi government gave a press conference about the situation in the region and put it boldly "Saudi Arabia's interests in the region are aligned with those of the United States". Al Saud has money and Pakistanis to prop it up. I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon; or at least for the forseeable future.

Not so sure about Ahmedinejad falling to be honest.

US and Saudi interests were aligned with Mubarak . Mubarak's fall was shock to US and Saudis. US also was not happy the way things turned out in Iraq. Things haven't been going Saudi Way with all the Arab revolutions going on.

So I think they are looking nervously at Syria.


About Ahmedinejad, I wasn't referring to a Iranian revolution after all Ahmedinejad was elected. I thinking that fall of Syria will strengthen hands of his opponents, Khatami, Rafsanjani et al.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Maverick wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Maverick wrote:Saudis are thinking tactically not strategically right now, they are trying to cut Iran down to size . How long before victors( presumably FSA) start asking for Al Saud's ouster? Syria is the last dictatorship( non royalty) in that region.It wont be long before Jordan falls( after all it has 70% Palestinian population). If FSA gets hold of chemical weapons all bets are off.

I personally have aversion to dictators like Assad and Saddam and I don't personally care either way. Wont be long before Ahmedinejad falls.
One of the emirs/ministers/some big shot in the Saudi government gave a press conference about the situation in the region and put it boldly "Saudi Arabia's interests in the region are aligned with those of the United States". Al Saud has money and Pakistanis to prop it up. I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon; or at least for the forseeable future.

Not so sure about Ahmedinejad falling to be honest.

US and Saudi interests were aligned with Mubarak . Mubarak's fall was shock to US and Saudis. US also was not happy the way things turned out in Iraq. Things haven't been going Saudi Way with all the Arab revolutions going on.

So I think they are looking nervously at Syria.


About Ahmedinejad, I wasn't referring to a Iranian revolution after all Ahmedinejad was elected. I thinking that fall of Syria will strengthen hands of his opponents, Khatami, Rafsanjani et al.
Mubarak was old and decrepit and had to be replaced. His sons were not well liked by the establishment. People in Egypt call Mursi a Mubarak with a beard. He just got a few F-16's and a bunch of money from the US. And the US has 4 large militray bases in Iraq that are pretty much left alone. It got what it wanted. The oil companies are pumping and the new rulers have their pockets full. Not sure Saudi regime is in any immediate danger from the "Arab springs" that have turned into nightmares. The Saudis take one look and think nah, we'll keep the king. And we saw what heppend to the Shias in Bahrain. Served as an example for their brethren in Saudi Arabia's east. As for the the Saudi Way, I am not so sure. Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, and probably soon some parts of Syria will/are all ruled by "Islamists" with ties to Saudi Arabia. Even Turkey and Saudi are hand in hand with the events in Syria. Not sure I would say not going the Saudi way.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Endovelico »

Syria’s Chemical Weapons ‘Safe for Now’

MOSCOW, December 22 (RIA Novosti) - Chemical weapons are under the control of the Syrian government, which has consolidated them in one or two locations, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Saturday.

“As of right now… the [Syrian] government is doing all it can to safeguard those weapons,” he said, adding that “we are following all leads concerning chemical weapons.”

However, there is a potential danger those weapons could be seized by militants, he admitted.

Western nations are seriously concerned Syria’s chemical weapons could “fall into the wrong hands,” Lavrov said.

Syria has not signed the international Chemical Weapons Convention and is believed to possess mustard gas and sarin, an extremely toxic nerve agent. The CIA says Syria has had a chemical weapons program "for years” and that the weapons can be “delivered by aircraft, ballistic missile, and artillery rockets." But Syria has never deployed the weapons, although it warned this summer that they could be used against “foreign invaders.”

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20121222/178331267.html
There have been some suggestions [http://www.debka.com/article/22627/Russ ... er-control] this "safeguarding" has been achieved with the help of Russian troops in Syria. If that's the case, one can forget about any intervention by US or NATO forces in the Syrian conflict. With Russian troops on the ground everybody else will have to keep its distance.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Speaking of chemical weapons.

Bashar al-Assad, Syria, and the truth about chemical weapons
....

And now, the coup de théâtre. Someone from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation called me up this week to talk about the use of chemical weapons by Hafez al-Assad in Hama during the Sunni Muslim uprising in the city in 1982. Their sources were the same old UMIS. But I happened to have got into Hama in February 1982 – which is why the Canadian was calling me – and while Hafez’s Syrian army was very definitely slaughtering its own people (who were, by the way, slaughtering regime officials and their families), no one ever used chemical weapons.

Not a single soldier I saw in Hama carried a gas mask. No civilians carried gas masks. The dangerously perfumed air which I and my colleagues smelt after chemicals were used by our (then) ally Saddam against Iranian soldiers in the 1980s was not present. And none of the dozens of civilian survivors I have interviewed in the 30 years since 1982 ever mentioned the use of gas.

But now we are to believe that it was used. And so the infantile new fairy tale has begun: Hafez al-Assad used gas against his own people in Hama 30 years ago. So his son Bashar may do the same again. And wasn’t that one of the reasons we invaded Iraq in 2003 – because Saddam had used gas against his own people already and may do so again?

...

And by the way, which was the first army to use gas in the Middle East? Saddam? Nope. The Brits, of course, under General Allenby, against the Turks in Sinai in 1917. And that’s the truth
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hoosiernorm »

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/21/world ... ml?hp&_r=0

Image
MAREA, Syria — The plane came in from the southeast late in the afternoon, releasing its weapons in a single pass. Within seconds, scores of finned bomblets struck and exploded on the homes and narrow streets of this small Syrian town.

After the screams and the desperate gathering of the victims, the staff at the local Freedom Hospital counted 4 dead and 23 wounded. All were civilians, doctors and residents said.

Many forms of violence and hardship have befallen Syria’s people as the country’s civil war has escalated this year. But the Syrian government’s attack here on Dec. 12 pointed to one of the war’s irrefutable patterns: the deliberate targeting of civilians by President Bashar al-Assad’s military, in this case with a weapon that is impossible to use precisely.

Syrians on both sides in this fight have suffered from the bloodshed and sectarian furies given dark license by the war. The victims of the cluster bomb attacks describe the tactic as collective punishment, a mass reprisal against populations that are with the rebels.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

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“ Syria’s air defense system is a no-nonsense force. As a result, no one has ever used serious air combat power against it, ” said Russia’s Ground Forces Air Defense commander Major General Alexander Leonov in a Saturday radio interview


Syria’s ‘No-Nonsense’ Air Defenses Praised by Russian General

MOSCOW, December 22 (RIA Novosti) - The Syrian armed forces have effective air-defense systems that can fend off massive airstrikes against the country, a senior Russian military official said on Saturday.

“Syria’s air-defense system is a no-nonsense force. As a result, no one has ever used serious air combat power against it,” Ground Forces Air Defense commander Maj. Gen. Alexander Leonov said in an interview with radio Ekho Moskvy.

Syria’s air defense systems are a primary target for the insurgents, he added.

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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

http://www.war-in-middle-east.blogspot.com/
Wednesday, December 26, 2012Tartus - The Capital of the Future Alawite State of "Alawistan"?

Tartus is located on the Mediterranean in the Alawite heartland
As I noted in my previous post, the Assad regime may see a retreat to the Alawite heartland along the coast of the Mediterranean as a way to stave off ultimate defeat, and perhaps even their own destruction. I have noted that this idea of the formation of an Alawite State in Syria may well be an "end-game" the regime is keeping in its back pocket if it appears they will be defeated in Damascus.

In that regard, I just read a fascinating article in the New York Times on how the city of Tartus in the Alawite heartland is thriving despite the bloody Sunni-Alawite/Shia civil war in the rest of Syria. The Times article noted that there are numerous indications that security forces may indeed be laying the logistical groundwork for the formation of a separate Alawite state in the region. Some of the indicators include the possibility of turning a tiny local airfield into a full airport, as well as the regime's forces tightening security checkpoints around what could be the borders of a separate Alawite state of "Alawistan".

The Times article had an interesting summary of what current regime thinking on creating an Alawite state might be:

Should Damascus fall to the opposition, Tartus could become the heart of an attempt to create a different country. Some expect Mr. Assad and the security elite will try to survive the collapse by establishing a rump Alawite state along the coast, with Tartus as their new capital.
I personally am not sure if the idea of a separate Alawite state is feasible logistically or militarily for the regime and its' Alawite supporters, but do bear in mind that there is precedent for this, as a separate Alawite state called Aleppo actually existed under the French mandate from 1920-1946. At any rate, I think one would have to be willfully blind to ignore the fact that conflict in Syria is largely a sectarian civil war between the Shia Alawites and the Sunni majority.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Alexis »

Hoosiernorm wrote:
MAREA, Syria — The plane came in from the southeast late in the afternoon, releasing its weapons in a single pass. Within seconds, scores of finned bomblets struck and exploded on the homes and narrow streets of this small Syrian town.

After the screams and the desperate gathering of the victims, the staff at the local Freedom Hospital counted 4 dead and 23 wounded. All were civilians, doctors and residents said.
In Kosovo
US / NATO used 2,000 cluster bombs containing 380,000 sub-munitions during the Kosovo war
The US, Britain and Holland are believed to have dropped more than 2,000 cluster bombs – containing 380,000 sub-munitions – during Operation Allied Force
(...)
Since the operation, the Allied forces have admitted the bombs had a failure rate of at least 5 per cent, meaning up to 20,000 unexploded bomb-lets may be strewn across Serbia and Kosovo.
In Afghanistan
United States and other NATO countries used large numbers of cluster munitions during the initial stage of the operation. 1,228 cluster bombs containing 248,056 bomblets were used by the allies.

In Iraq
United States and allies attacked Iraq with 13,000 cluster munitions, containing two million submunitions during Operation Iraqi Freedom, according to the HRW
At multiple times, coalition forces used cluster munitions in residential areas, and the country remains among the most contaminated by this day, bomblets posing a threat to both US military personnel in the area, and local civilians.

Their crimes are heinous. Our crimes are forgettable.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Doc »

Alexis wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:
MAREA, Syria — The plane came in from the southeast late in the afternoon, releasing its weapons in a single pass. Within seconds, scores of finned bomblets struck and exploded on the homes and narrow streets of this small Syrian town.

After the screams and the desperate gathering of the victims, the staff at the local Freedom Hospital counted 4 dead and 23 wounded. All were civilians, doctors and residents said.
In Kosovo
US / NATO used 2,000 cluster bombs containing 380,000 sub-munitions during the Kosovo war
The US, Britain and Holland are believed to have dropped more than 2,000 cluster bombs – containing 380,000 sub-munitions – during Operation Allied Force
(...)
Since the operation, the Allied forces have admitted the bombs had a failure rate of at least 5 per cent, meaning up to 20,000 unexploded bomb-lets may be strewn across Serbia and Kosovo.
In Afghanistan
United States and other NATO countries used large numbers of cluster munitions during the initial stage of the operation. 1,228 cluster bombs containing 248,056 bomblets were used by the allies.

In Iraq
United States and allies attacked Iraq with 13,000 cluster munitions, containing two million submunitions during Operation Iraqi Freedom, according to the HRW
At multiple times, coalition forces used cluster munitions in residential areas, and the country remains among the most contaminated by this day, bomblets posing a threat to both US military personnel in the area, and local civilians.

Their crimes are heinous. Our crimes are forgettable.
SO you are saying that the US and NATO intentionally targeted civilian with cluster bombs?
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:SO you are saying that the US and NATO intentionally targeted civilian with cluster bombs?
Without question the US and NATO have intentionally targeted civilians in certain instances. They also continue to knowingly kill civilians in strikes on allegedly valid targets.

But cluster bombs and incendiaries specifically have a well-documented history in the first Gulf War and the Balkans. I was unaware of the Afghan example, but it also seems legitimate.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

proxy-war-on-Syria1-640x493.gif
proxy-war-on-Syria1-640x493.gif (36.02 KiB) Viewed 1202 times
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Funny thing about that cartoon..
From the looks of the hands, it is the same person feeding both sides.
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Almost like the Old Cold War Daze.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Hans Bulvai wrote:Funny thing about that cartoon..
From the looks of the hands, it is the same person feeding both sides.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Hans.

IMO the hand feeding the Syrian rebels flies the Colors of Uz..........

While the hand feeding the Syrian Government flies the Colors of the Russian Bear ........

Almost like the Old Cold War Daze.......
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Russian Syrian Connection..........

Post by monster_gardener »

Hans Bulvai wrote:http://www.war-in-middle-east.blogspot.com/
Wednesday, December 26, 2012Tartus - The Capital of the Future Alawite State of "Alawistan"?

Tartus is located on the Mediterranean in the Alawite heartland
As I noted in my previous post, the Assad regime may see a retreat to the Alawite heartland along the coast of the Mediterranean as a way to stave off ultimate defeat, and perhaps even their own destruction. I have noted that this idea of the formation of an Alawite State in Syria may well be an "end-game" the regime is keeping in its back pocket if it appears they will be defeated in Damascus.

In that regard, I just read a fascinating article in the New York Times on how the city of Tartus in the Alawite heartland is thriving despite the bloody Sunni-Alawite/Shia civil war in the rest of Syria. The Times article noted that there are numerous indications that security forces may indeed be laying the logistical groundwork for the formation of a separate Alawite state in the region. Some of the indicators include the possibility of turning a tiny local airfield into a full airport, as well as the regime's forces tightening security checkpoints around what could be the borders of a separate Alawite state of "Alawistan".

The Times article had an interesting summary of what current regime thinking on creating an Alawite state might be:

Should Damascus fall to the opposition, Tartus could become the heart of an attempt to create a different country. Some expect Mr. Assad and the security elite will try to survive the collapse by establishing a rump Alawite state along the coast, with Tartus as their new capital.
I personally am not sure if the idea of a separate Alawite state is feasible logistically or militarily for the regime and its' Alawite supporters, but do bear in mind that there is precedent for this, as a separate Alawite state called Aleppo actually existed under the French mandate from 1920-1946. At any rate, I think one would have to be willfully blind to ignore the fact that conflict in Syria is largely a sectarian civil war between the Shia Alawites and the Sunni majority.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Hans.

And Tartus is the site of the Russian Navy base..........

And some 30,000 Russian citizens live in Syria, according to reports in the New York Times and Financial Times.
[22][20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_na ... _in_Tartus

Plus the Russian Orthodox Patriarch reportedly asked Putin to protect Christians in Syria when he was asked to support Putin in the last Russian election IIRC.......
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