Marcus wrote:monster_gardener wrote:. . If all is Fate as decreed by Allah, there is no point trying to figure out what rules G_d made to run the Universe and how to use them to better mankind like Newton or Michael Faraday did because Allah can be even more capricious than Odin. Odin at least has the excuse that he is trying to delay the end of the world as long as possible while Allah does atrocities just because he is COMPLETELY Sovereign and feels like doing it. He does NOT have to obey any laws he makes.
Even worse, if every thing you do is Allah's will, then any desire you feel is a desire Allah wants you to feel and any atrocity that you do: robberies, rapes, violence and murder is something Allah wanted you his puppet to do. Any atrocity can be justified though watch out, Allah's next act is likely to be to punished you for what he made you do. . .
This also reminds me of a quote of Winston Churchill about Islam.........
"A quote from an 1899 book by Winston Churchill, "The River War", in which he describes Muslims he apparently observed during Kitchener's campaign in the Sudan" "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient" Rome.
That said, mg, Christianity too professes predestination:
I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.
—Westminster Confession of Faith, 1646
What's the difference?
Predestination & Fatalism as Understood by Cat, Dog and Chaos Monkey Persons....
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Marcus.
AIUI The Judeo-Christian G_D is more an Engineer and a Gentleman
than a puppet master and capricious tyrant.
It's a matter of how He "does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy."
AIUI He designed and created a universe with rules/laws such as for light and gravitation (Remembering a College Professor who was a Christian who listed the mathematical laws G_d promulgated in saying "Let there be Light!"
) BUT does NOT make literally make every sparrow fall with His hands though He knows when it happens.
AIUI in Judaism and Christianity, G_d gives humans some degree of free will. Historically because of this, Christian and other scientists like Issac Newton and Michael Faraday who believed in a rational G_D and a rational universe also believed that with effort in thought and in experiment, they, being made in G_d's image as rational beings could discover some of the rules at work in G_d's current Universe and use those laws to benefit mankind and the world. Even Einstein famously said words to the effect that "G_d does not play dice with the Universe" *
Regarding Predestination, I wonder if it is like me and my experience with feral cats. I didn't try to tame the violent feral cat "Psycho Kitty"just as G_D didn't work that much with Esau which was a choice of His sovereign will.
I did adopt one of Psycho Kitty's children and he became a beloved junior member of my family for the rest of his life enjoying human benefits that a feral cat would not have.
Because of my efforts he became a cat who was mostly equal to a human person even though he couldn't open cans and doors.......directly that is**
. However, he was involved in this too because in contrast to his mother, he had a receptive personality. If he had been a violent rejector like his mother, I probably would not have bothered trying.
IIRC, C.S. Lewis mentions something like this in one of his books, where he says that G_d/Christ is a "gent", that is a gentleman. He knocks at the door but does not break it down.
So perhaps, predestination is negative: It involves not being chosen and worked with by G_d more than being actively rejected.
And I may be wrong about this.
I have heard other explanations such as Predestination involves G_d's foreknowledge: One side of the gate says "Whosoever will may enter" but the other side says "G_d's Elect.
However, I suspect that despite the small but greater amount of intelligence and free will that G_d has given me, I and other humans understand G_d maybe about as much as my cats & dogs understand all about me.
Some of the things I do probably seem pretty strange to them and/or they misunderstand: for example staring at a light emitting box and moving my strange soft paws over what seems to be a strange scratching pad
as I type this post.
What do you think?
You may be closer as much of the truth as we humans can understand than I am.....
*Neils Bohr is said to have replied "Quit telling G_d what to do!"
**Though the prayers of he and his fellow cat persons could be VERY effective
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light