Eurozone recession hits

Mr. Perfect
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ever wonder about the silence surrounding this kind of news?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... oodys.html
France stripped of prized 'AAA' credit rating by Moody's
France has suffered a serious blow to its economic credentials after being stripped of its prized AAA credit rating by Moody’s.

The rating agency said France’s long-term economic growth had been hit by its inflexible labour market and low levels of innovation eroding its competitiveness and industrial base.

Moody's also flagged up the country’s exposure to the continuing eurozone crisis.

It warned the “predictability” of France’s resilence of further shocks in the eurozone was diminishing while the country’s exposure to the highly indebted countries such as Spain and Greece was disproportionately high.

In a statement Moody’s said: “Further shocks to sovereign and bank credit markets would further undermine financial and economic stability in France as well as in other euro area countries.

“The impact of such shocks would be expected to be felt disproportionately by more highly indebted governments such as France.”
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MSM Wants Uz to be More Like the Euroz..........

Post by monster_gardener »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Ever wonder about the silence surrounding this kind of news?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... oodys.html
France stripped of prized 'AAA' credit rating by Moody's
France has suffered a serious blow to its economic credentials after being stripped of its prized AAA credit rating by Moody’s.

The rating agency said France’s long-term economic growth had been hit by its inflexible labour market and low levels of innovation eroding its competitiveness and industrial base.

Moody's also flagged up the country’s exposure to the continuing eurozone crisis.

It warned the “predictability” of France’s resilence of further shocks in the eurozone was diminishing while the country’s exposure to the highly indebted countries such as Spain and Greece was disproportionately high.

In a statement Moody’s said: “Further shocks to sovereign and bank credit markets would further undermine financial and economic stability in France as well as in other euro area countries.

“The impact of such shocks would be expected to be felt disproportionately by more highly indebted governments such as France.”

Thank You Very Much for your post, Mr. Perfect.
Ever wonder about the silence surrounding this kind of news?
Not that much........

AIUI the MSM wants Uz to be more like the Euroz ;) :lol: .......
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Ammianus
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Ammianus »

Sounds like the wonders and magic of austerity are not being practiced faithfully. More dollops will be needed, and painful yet cheerful adjustment prescribed. Otherwise, who knows what kind of collapse would occur?
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by noddy »

isnt the definition of austerity that you can only get another new central bank funny money credit card to cover your existing debt payments but shouldnt take on more debt but hey, if you must, then ok, we will enforce that next time, honest we will, ok, this is the last time ?

aka, not really austerity, just a hyperbolic word that means nothing, but it does keep the talking heads entertained and maintains the status quo of winners and losers...
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Typhoon »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Ever wonder about the silence surrounding this kind of news?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... oodys.html
France stripped of prized 'AAA' credit rating by Moody's
France has suffered a serious blow to its economic credentials after being stripped of its prized AAA credit rating by Moody’s.

The rating agency said France’s long-term economic growth had been hit by its inflexible labour market and low levels of innovation eroding its competitiveness and industrial base.

Moody's also flagged up the country’s exposure to the continuing eurozone crisis.

It warned the “predictability” of France’s resilence of further shocks in the eurozone was diminishing while the country’s exposure to the highly indebted countries such as Spain and Greece was disproportionately high.

In a statement Moody’s said: “Further shocks to sovereign and bank credit markets would further undermine financial and economic stability in France as well as in other euro area countries.

“The impact of such shocks would be expected to be felt disproportionately by more highly indebted governments such as France.”
I don't know about the silence, but I do wonder why

1/ anyone would still take a rating from Moody's or S&P seriously; and

2/ why these rating companies still exist as going concerns.

Bloomberg | Moody’s, S&P Caved In to Ratings Pressure From Goldman, UBS Over Mortgages

As for rating the debt of other nations, it's more about politics than it is about economics.

US | debt / GDP = 103%

France | debt / GDP = 86%

[ IMF | 2011 ]

Moody's still rates the US as Aaa.
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ammianus wrote:Sounds like the wonders and magic of austerity are not being practiced faithfully. More dollops will be needed, and painful yet cheerful adjustment prescribed. Otherwise, who knows what kind of collapse would occur?
Who is practicing austerity?
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote:[

I don't know about the silence, but I do wonder why

1/ anyone would still take a rating from Moody's or S&P seriously; and

2/ why these rating companies still exist as going concerns.
What is the alternative.
Bloomberg | Moody’s, S&P Caved In to Ratings Pressure From Goldman, UBS Over Mortgages

As for rating the debt of other nations, it's more about politics than it is about economics.

US | debt / GDP = 103%

France | debt / GDP = 86%

[ IMF | 2011 ]

Moody's still rates the US as Aaa.
How would you do it based on economics.
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Alexis
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Alexis »

Typhoon wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Ever wonder about the silence surrounding this kind of news?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... oodys.html
I don't know about the silence,
No such "silence" in the French media...
but I do wonder why

1/ anyone would still take a rating from Moody's or S&P seriously; and

2/ why these rating companies still exist as going concerns.

Bloomberg | Moody’s, S&P Caved In to Ratings Pressure From Goldman, UBS Over Mortgages
Thanks for the very interesting info.
As for rating the debt of other nations, it's more about politics than it is about economics.

US | debt / GDP = 103%
France | debt / GDP = 86%
[ IMF | 2011 ]

Moody's still rates the US as Aaa.
The rate of public debt to GDP in the US is actually worse than that, since French public debt includes local government debt (according to EU rules), while it is excluded from the computation of US public debt. If EU accounting rules were used, US public indebtedness would jump by 20% and approach the 130% of GDP...

That being said, rate of public debt to GDP is not the only criteria that should inform an estimate of probability of default. In addition to ideologic criteria ("inflexible labour market" hampering "long-term economic growth") and political criteria, more relevant ones may be:
- Exposure to losses on lending to crisis-hit countries (though in fact this is exposure of the banks... and no State is obliged to socialize the losses of private investors)
- Control of one's currency (enabling to freely print it with abandon to depress rates on public bonds, which works fine... until it doesn't, that is)
- Savings rate
- Budget deficit and its trajectory
- Hidden liabilities

France is not in a good position regarding the first two criteria.
It is in a better position than most other developed countries regarding the three last criteria.
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Congratulations leftists, your self destruction continues.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013 ... on-germany

Good morning and welcome back to our rolling coverage of the eurozone crisis and other global economic events.

This morning all eyes are on eurozone GDP, which is expected to show the region dropping deeper into recession in the final quarter of 2012.

We've already had figures out from Germany, which show the economy contracted more than feared, as exports declined. German GDP dropped 0.6% in the fourth quarter, compared with expectations of a 0.5% decline.

That is a big swing from the 0.2% growth the German economy recorded in the third quarter. And it is the deepest contraction since the height of the global financial crisis in 2009. The German statistics office said:

Comparatively weak foreign trade was the decisive factor for the decline in the economic performance at the end of the year: in the final quarter 2012 exports of goods declined significantly more than imports of goods.

But analysts remained relatively upbeat about the outlook for Europe's largest economy. Carsten Brzeski of ING said:

With increased uncertainty stemming from the euro crisis and the global economy cooling in the second half of the year, the German economy has finally lost its invincibility. Looking ahead, however, there is increasing evidence that the economy should pick up speed again very quickly.

French GDP worse than expected

French GDP figures are also in and also worse than expected. Europe's second largest economy contracted by 0.3% in the fourth quarter, compared with forecasts of a 0.2% decline.

The economy inched up in the third quarter by 0.1%. France is now flirting with recession – defined as two consecutive quarters of contraction.

Downward revisions to first and second quarter GDP show the economy contracted 0.1% in each period (rather than initial estimates that it remained stagnant), meaning the country has already suffered one bout of recession over the past year.
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by YMix »

Wolf Richter: The Stunning Differences In European Costs Of Labor – Or Why “Competitiveness” Is A Beggar-Thy-Neighbor Strategy

By Wolf Richter, San Francisco based executive, entrepreneur, start up specialist, and author, with extensive international work experience. Cross posted from Testosterone Pit.

The ominous term, “competitiveness” has been bandied about as the real issue, the one that causes European countries, in particular some of those stuck in the Eurozone, to sink ever deeper into their fiasco. To fix that issue, “structural reforms,” or austerity, have been invoked regardless of how much blood might stain the streets. And a core element of these structural reforms is bringing down the cost of labor.

In Europe’s private-sector, the cost of labor—gross earnings plus employer-paid social contributions, pensions, disability, etc.—is marked by stunning differences.

At the bottom of the spectrum is Bulgaria: the average private sector employee costs a company €3.70 per hour worked; in manufacturing even less, €2.90. Romania is right there at €4.50 and €3.80 respectively.

Near the top of the spectrum is Belgium at €40.40 and €41.90 per hour worked. But no one beats the Swedes: €41.90 and €43.80. Per hour worked, the average Swedish employee costs a manufacturer over 15 times more than an employee in Bulgaria.

So, relocate all manufacturing plants from Sweden to Bulgaria? Or Romania? Even Greece would be a great place. The cost of labor there is only €14.70 per hour worked, about a third of what it costs up north. It’s the only country in the EU where the average cost of labor actually fell in 2012—and by 6.8%!

In Spain, which struggles with a similar unemployment problem, cost of labor rose by 1.1% to €20.90, in Italy by 1.7% to €21.90, in Germany by 2.8% to €31, in France by 1.9% to €34.90. The biggest gainers in percentage terms were at the bottom: in Bulgaria, cost of labor rose 6.4%, a whopping €0.24 per hour! In euro terms, the biggest gainers were at the top: cost of labor in Sweden rose 3.5%, or about €1.50 per hour! The cost of labor at the top is running away.

Based on data from the German statistical agency Destatis, this is what it looked like in 2012:

Image

But if enough Swedish companies—and not just manufacturers but all kinds of companies—packed up their machines and robots and cubicles and headed south, unemployment would rise in Sweden. Once unemployment pushes deeply into the double digits, executives will defend their delocalization decisions by lamenting the cost of labor, and soon the government will be talking feverishly about “structural reforms,” without meaning it, and that’s where France is right now. But eventually the situation might deteriorate and pressure wages and associated costs. This has happened in Greece. And they’re all competing with the US, China, Mexico, Bangladesh…. Because competitiveness is not just a beggar-thy-neighbor system.

Alas, the rejuvenated “sick man of Europe,” Germany, isn’t surviving just by cutting its cost of labor. At €31 per hour, it was 32% higher than the EU average, though 11% lower than in France. In manufacturing, it was even more striking: Germany’s cost of labor of €35.20 per hour was 47% higher than the EU average, but still 3% lower than in France. Productivity, infrastructure, transportation costs, corruption, training and education, etc. all figure prominently into this equation. Cost of labor is not the only factor.

Yet German workers have been hit hard: between 2001 and 2010, the cost of labor grew 16%, less than the rate of inflation, while in France, for example, it grew 35%, and in southern countries it jumped far more. In 2011 and 2012, Germany’s cost of labor began to rise with renewed vigor, up 5.9%, but so did France’s at 5.4%.

Much of this money was absorbed by the costs of social contributions, pensions, etc. And they can be breathtaking. The graph below shows these additional costs to the employer per €100 in gross wages paid.

Image

So an average worker in Sweden who earns €100 for a certain number of hours in gross wages costs his employer an additional €51, for a total cost of €151. A Maltese worker, who’d work about three times as long for the same pay, would cost the employer only an additional €10, so €110. And a Bulgarian worker who’d work about 15 times as long for the same pay would cost an additional €18, so €118. This is a conundrum looking for a solution.

Over time, “competitiveness” hollows out the middle and lower classes in some “rich” countries—this has been happening in the US and Germany for years—balloon the middle class in other countries, and make the top in all countries immensely rich. For many people, it’s nothing to look forward to.

Italy has Beppe Grillo, but with European governments reeling from self-inflicted crises, and the euro debacle descending into a tragi-comic farce, one wonders who the real clowns are – especially here in Spain, where ministers gorge themselves on the public purse, leaving behind a trail of evidence so obvious that even the mainstream media can’t ignore it.
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Endovelico »

YMix,
A very interesting article you posted. I have been trying, for quite a while, to understand why a country like Portugal is less competitive than Sweden, if Swedes earn four times as much per hour as Portuguese. It certainly is not credible that Swedes work more than four times harder than we do, nor are they four times more educated or smarter. The only explanation is that Sweden's investment in technology and state of the art equipment will make the difference. Paying lower salaries to Portuguese workers to make us more competitive is therefore a complete idiocy. If firms invested in technology and equipment we would soon be by far more competitive than Swedes, seeing that our salaries are so much lower. In a way I think Swedes - and all northern Europeans - know that they can only stay ahead if they stop southern countries from investing. The present crisis is the ideal setting for such to happen, as there is little money to invest and the savage repayment of debt will insure that the shortage of money will remain a reality for many years to come. I have lived in Belgium and the Netherlands for thirteen years, and I know that present day Portuguese workers are as capable as the average Belgian or Dutch worker. So, the difference has to be found in the technological and capital areas. I'm not saying that we are not to blame for having helped creating the conditions for all this to happen. But let's stop pretending that those nice northern Europeans want very much to help us but are tired of financing our incompetence and laziness... In fact they are doing as much as they can to keep us down.
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Azrael »

Endovelico,

I believe you're right about investment.

What Southern Europe is dealing with is like the Treaty of Versailles; but without the Young Plan.
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Taboo »

Endovelico wrote:YMix,
A very interesting article you posted. I have been trying, for quite a while, to understand why a country like Portugal is less competitive than Sweden, if Swedes earn four times as much per hour as Portuguese. It certainly is not credible that Swedes work more than four times harder than we do, nor are they four times more educated or smarter.
Not four times. Merely 2 times.

Average number of years of schooling, adults (from Barro,2000):
Portugal: 7.7
Sweden: 11.6

Portugal: 30% of adults aged 25-64 have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree. 48% of 25-34 year-olds have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree.
Sweden: 86% of adults aged 25-64 have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree. 91% of 25-34 year-olds have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree.
Swedes can expect to go through 19 years of education between the ages of 5 and 39

86% vs 30%? My bad. I was wrong. Make that 3 times more educated.
The only explanation is that Sweden's investment in technology and state of the art equipment will make the difference. Paying lower salaries to Portuguese workers to make us more competitive is therefore a complete idiocy. If firms invested in technology and equipment we would soon be by far more competitive than Swedes, seeing that our salaries are so much lower. In a way I think Swedes - and all northern Europeans - know that they can only stay ahead if they stop southern countries from investing.
So let me get this straight. Sweden's prosperity depends on keeping Portugal down? :shock:
But let's stop pretending that those nice northern Europeans want very much to help us but are tired of financing our incompetence and laziness... In fact they are doing as much as they can to keep us down.
You are starting to sound like Putin.
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Endovelico »

Taboo wrote:
Endovelico wrote:YMix,
A very interesting article you posted. I have been trying, for quite a while, to understand why a country like Portugal is less competitive than Sweden, if Swedes earn four times as much per hour as Portuguese. It certainly is not credible that Swedes work more than four times harder than we do, nor are they four times more educated or smarter.
Not four times. Merely 2 times.

Average number of years of schooling, adults (from Barro,2000):
Portugal: 7.7
Sweden: 11.6

Portugal: 30% of adults aged 25-64 have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree. 48% of 25-34 year-olds have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree.
Sweden: 86% of adults aged 25-64 have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree. 91% of 25-34 year-olds have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree.
Swedes can expect to go through 19 years of education between the ages of 5 and 39

86% vs 30%? My bad. I was wrong. Make that 3 times more educated.
The only explanation is that Sweden's investment in technology and state of the art equipment will make the difference. Paying lower salaries to Portuguese workers to make us more competitive is therefore a complete idiocy. If firms invested in technology and equipment we would soon be by far more competitive than Swedes, seeing that our salaries are so much lower. In a way I think Swedes - and all northern Europeans - know that they can only stay ahead if they stop southern countries from investing.
So let me get this straight. Sweden's prosperity depends on keeping Portugal down? :shock:
But let's stop pretending that those nice northern Europeans want very much to help us but are tired of financing our incompetence and laziness... In fact they are doing as much as they can to keep us down.
You are starting to sound like Putin.
It's a bit too simplistic to say that because on average Swedes stay in school twice as long as Portuguese, they are twice as productive. Firms in Portugal which have invested heavily in technology and equipment are at least as competitive as their northern European counterparts. Volkswagen, Siemens and Continental are three examples that come to mind. And they all use exclusively local workers as well as most managers. At plant level whether you have 9 years schooling, or 12 or even 16 years, is irrelevant. You don't need to know algebra or biology or ancient history to produce a car or make good tires. You need to be smart, a quick learner and a problem solver. And Portuguese workers are, on average, exactly that. Even Portuguese firms - like EFACEC (http://www.efacec.pt/presentationLayer/ ... x?idioma=2) and OGMA (http://www.ogma.pt/) - are highly competitive internationally with our labour and management. We do extensive aircraft maintenance for firms like Lockheed and Airbus. Do you think we could do that if our workers and engineers were not competent, in spite of our lower formal schooling? But please go ahead and underestimate us, if it makes you feel superior...
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Taboo »

Since I am neither Swedish or Northern European, nor Portuguese or Southern European, for me this is a purely academic exercise.

But I would be surprised if lower levels of education did not translate into lower productivity. A Portuguese worker without a high-school degree might make tires quite well, but he's not going to be the engineer who patents a new tire design, nor the corporate salesperson signing million-dollar contracts to sell those tires in China and the US, speaking flawless, unaccented Chinese and English to his customers. He also won't start biotech startups, since he never had the chance to learn all that biology that is a prerequisite of such work.

Far from me to argue that the Portuguese are stupid. While that is a possibility, I believe it to be quite remote. It's simply a matter of Sweden having two centuries of peace, prosperity and homogeneity to work out its issues, while Portugal stagnated under the burden of a colonialism it could not afford, a dictatorship it didn't need, and catholic traditional customs that perhaps(?) were holding its people back.

Portugal now is doing a lot of things right. The decriminalization of drugs is a daring experiment and Portugal needs to be commended for that, for instance. But the low educational levels should be a national outrage. Should have been a national outrage decades ago. Why were the Euro-funds not used to hugely expand education? Is there a huge drop-out rate? What causes it? These are the questions that should have been asked in the 1980s and 1990s.
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:It's a bit too simplistic to say that because on average Swedes stay in school twice as long as Portuguese, they are twice as productive. Firms in Portugal which have invested heavily in technology and equipment are at least as competitive as their northern European counterparts. Volkswagen, Siemens and Continental are three examples that come to mind. And they all use exclusively local workers as well as most managers. At plant level whether you have 9 years schooling, or 12 or even 16 years, is irrelevant. You don't need to know algebra or biology or ancient history to produce a car or make good tires. You need to be smart, a quick learner and a problem solver. And Portuguese workers are, on average, exactly that. Even Portuguese firms - like EFACEC (http://www.efacec.pt/presentationLayer/ ... x?idioma=2) and OGMA (http://www.ogma.pt/) - are highly competitive internationally with our labour and management. We do extensive aircraft maintenance for firms like Lockheed and Airbus. Do you think we could do that if our workers and engineers were not competent, in spite of our lower formal schooling? But please go ahead and underestimate us, if it makes you feel superior...
Its interesting to read a back and forth on the value of education on productivity, when the conventional knowledge in North America is that too many people spend too much time in school, and moreover study the wrong things. And statistically they fare worse in the troubled job market than people with no postsecondary education.

My limited experience with European engineers suggests that technical education in Germany is more efficient than ours in Canada, and that this may offer Germans a competitive advantage. Specifically in the field I was peripherally involved with in China, where contract crews to install and move heavy equipment were always supplied by German firms even when the machinery was manufactures elsewhere.

Point being, education overall seems to count for little. All the economy wants is technicians, and only the ability to produce technicians and scientists are valuable in these various capitalist measures of success. If Swedes are producing more or better technicians than Portugal then that might be important, but if numbers are skewed by a bunch of Swedish students spending 12 years on a PhD in folklore & mythology then it has little economic value. I doubt anybody wants to argue that there is some art/literature/high culture gap between Northern and Southern Europe.
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Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:It's a bit too simplistic to say that because on average Swedes stay in school twice as long as Portuguese, they are twice as productive. Firms in Portugal which have invested heavily in technology and equipment are at least as competitive as their northern European counterparts. Volkswagen, Siemens and Continental are three examples that come to mind. And they all use exclusively local workers as well as most managers. At plant level whether you have 9 years schooling, or 12 or even 16 years, is irrelevant. You don't need to know algebra or biology or ancient history to produce a car or make good tires. You need to be smart, a quick learner and a problem solver. And Portuguese workers are, on average, exactly that. Even Portuguese firms - like EFACEC (http://www.efacec.pt/presentationLayer/ ... x?idioma=2) and OGMA (http://www.ogma.pt/) - are highly competitive internationally with our labour and management. We do extensive aircraft maintenance for firms like Lockheed and Airbus. Do you think we could do that if our workers and engineers were not competent, in spite of our lower formal schooling? But please go ahead and underestimate us, if it makes you feel superior...
Its interesting to read a back and forth on the value of education on productivity, when the conventional knowledge in North America is that too many people spend too much time in school, and moreover study the wrong things. And statistically they fare worse in the troubled job market than people with no postsecondary education.

My limited experience with European engineers suggests that technical education in Germany is more efficient than ours in Canada, and that this may offer Germans a competitive advantage. Specifically in the field I was peripherally involved with in China, where contract crews to install and move heavy equipment were always supplied by German firms even when the machinery was manufactures elsewhere.

Point being, education overall seems to count for little. All the economy wants is technicians, and only the ability to produce technicians and scientists are valuable in these various capitalist measures of success. If Swedes are producing more or better technicians than Portugal then that might be important, but if numbers are skewed by a bunch of Swedish students spending 12 years on a PhD in folklore & mythology then it has little economic value. I doubt anybody wants to argue that there is some art/literature/high culture gap between Northern and Southern Europe.
Thank You Very Much for your Post, ibrahim.

One thing I admire about German society in times of recession is their tradition of Kurz Arbeit: instead of laying off people, everyone works less till demand picks up.

IIRC at least one Uz firm, Thomas Electric, did the same thing at one time.

One thing that made it possible for Thomas Electric to do that was that it was a privately owned firm: the Boss could do what he wanted if he wanted to protect loyal workers and didn't have to answer to stockholders.........

Not sure if this is the right Thomas Electric.

http://www.thomaselectric.com/

IIRC The program that talked about it was "American What Went Wrong".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_B._S ... rong.3F.22
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by noddy »

i get so confused between the rants about the stupid germans being workaholic spendthrifts and then the rants about the conspiracy behind germany being a productive country.

personally id prefer living in a cruisier place with a less stressed lifestyle and i accept that means less goodies - less services, less toys .. less.. least you get time to enjoy the ones you do have.
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:i get so confused between the rants about the stupid germans being workaholic spendthrifts and then the rants about the conspiracy behind germany being a productive country.

personally id prefer living in a cruisier place with a less stressed lifestyle and i accept that means less goodies - less services, less toys .. less.. least you get time to enjoy the ones you do have.
Aman bro!

When we bought our house, we spent 1/3 to 1/5 of what our peers paid paid for their houses, ( about 1/3 of the average national house price in the US). Whenever people asked why we bought such a small house, our answer was always "So we can sleep at night!"

Back then, some did not understand our thinking. Now, most understand very well.

weird, everytime most people start saying "this time is different," the trend always changes and proves them wrong........

Humans are over-rated!
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Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by noddy »

Simple Minded wrote:
noddy wrote:i get so confused between the rants about the stupid germans being workaholic spendthrifts and then the rants about the conspiracy behind germany being a productive country.

personally id prefer living in a cruisier place with a less stressed lifestyle and i accept that means less goodies - less services, less toys .. less.. least you get time to enjoy the ones you do have.
Aman bro!

When we bought our house, we spent 1/3 to 1/5 of what our peers paid paid for their houses, ( about 1/3 of the average national house price in the US). Whenever people asked why we bought such a small house, our answer was always "So we can sleep at night!"

Back then, some did not understand our thinking. Now, most understand very well.

weird, everytime most people start saying "this time is different," the trend always changes and proves them wrong........

Humans are over-rated!
aye my sh*tshack was bought at less than 1/2 the price of the average and even then i considered it way too expensive but it was just inside my sense of single-income and we refused to push boundaries based on a dual income.

now that the downturn has destroyed the missus job im quite glad of this, we are struggling but we are not homeless.
ultracrepidarian
Simple Minded

Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote: aye my sh*tshack was bought at less than 1/2 the price of the average and even then i considered it way too expensive but it was just inside my sense of single-income and we refused to push boundaries based on a dual income.

now that the downturn has destroyed the missus job im quite glad of this, we are struggling but we are not homeless.
Thats why you're my hero! Congrats on being much smarter than the average Westerner! Several decades of bull markets always make people crazy.

The economic crises that is hitting the West will pale in comparison to the social crises that is just now beginning. Many causes.

One of the most influencial causes, IMSMO, is the popularity over the last couple decades of parents subcontracting out the raising of their children to third parties. Kinda like third party payment in any transaction (health care). Lack of vested interest often results in outcomes that are below earlier expectations.

Insulating people from the results of their thinking and actions almost always gets ugly.
User avatar
Alexis
Posts: 1305
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Alexis »

noddy wrote:i get so confused between the rants about the stupid germans being workaholic spendthrifts and then the rants about the conspiracy behind germany being a productive country.

personally id prefer living in a cruisier place with a less stressed lifestyle and i accept that means less goodies - less services, less toys .. less.. least you get time to enjoy the ones you do have.
Actually, according to OECD data, Germans are among those working the shorter hours.

Average annual hours actually worked per worker stood in 2011 at:
- 2032 in Greece
- 1787 in the USA
- 1774 in Italy
- 1728 in Japan
- 1711 in Portugal
- 1690 in Spain
- 1625 in the UK
- 1543 in Ireland
- 1476 in France, and finally...
...1413 in Germany !

Among OECD countries, only the Dutch put up less hours than Germans, and not by a very large margin: 1379

However, my personal experience, in agreement with that of quite a few colleagues, from France and from other countries, is that it's less the number of hours you work that counts than the actual work you do during that time, and how much you allow friction within your work and with co-workers to degrade efficiency of the part of your precious time that you spend for purposes other than your very personal ones.

Ideally, one should perform one's working responsibilities within the shortest possible time, then go pursuing other personal activities.
If one is the champion for that kind of efficiency, one could e.g. go in downtown Amsterdam to smoke some pot... :lol:
noddy
Posts: 11380
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by noddy »

Alexis wrote:
noddy wrote:i get so confused between the rants about the stupid germans being workaholic spendthrifts and then the rants about the conspiracy behind germany being a productive country.

personally id prefer living in a cruisier place with a less stressed lifestyle and i accept that means less goodies - less services, less toys .. less.. least you get time to enjoy the ones you do have.
Actually, according to OECD data, Germans are among those working the shorter hours.

Average annual hours actually worked per worker stood in 2011 at:
- 2032 in Greece
- 1787 in the USA
- 1774 in Italy
- 1728 in Japan
- 1711 in Portugal
- 1690 in Spain
- 1625 in the UK
- 1543 in Ireland
- 1476 in France, and finally...
...1413 in Germany !

Among OECD countries, only the Dutch put up less hours than Germans, and not by a very large margin: 1379

However, my personal experience, in agreement with that of quite a few colleagues, from France and from other countries, is that it's less the number of hours you work that counts than the actual work you do during that time, and how much you allow friction within your work and with co-workers to degrade efficiency of the part of your precious time that you spend for purposes other than your very personal ones.

Ideally, one should perform one's working responsibilities within the shortest possible time, then go pursuing other personal activities.
If one is the champion for that kind of efficiency, one could e.g. go in downtown Amsterdam to smoke some pot... :lol:
i dont put much stock in such crude figures as working hours per day.

without wishing to put any generalities on the various countries involved i have noticed within my country that the types that show up early and leave late are as often as not quite poor at getting things done and focus on the appearance of being a hard worker as much as the reality of being one.

for better or worse the germans have a reputation of taking their output levels and focus on quality seriously and this helps them in the market place.

one can rant against how unjustified or fair that is but you cant knock the germans for creating that perception.
ultracrepidarian
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Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Endovelico »

Taboo wrote: But I would be surprised if lower levels of education did not translate into lower productivity. A Portuguese worker without a high-school degree might make tires quite well, but he's not going to be the engineer who patents a new tire design, nor the corporate salesperson signing million-dollar contracts to sell those tires in China and the US, speaking flawless, unaccented Chinese and English to his customers. He also won't start biotech startups, since he never had the chance to learn all that biology that is a prerequisite of such work.
You are not going to do that with the sort of people who make tires or build cars. And we have enough educated people for those purposes. In fact several northern European countries have come to Portugal to hire engineers. For instance, there are close to 500 Portuguese engineers working in Norway. My point is that lack of investment - not lack of education - is keeping our economy inefficient. Rather than accusing us of being lazy our northern European partners (?) should help us getting the means to upgrade our plants. But then, of course, we might take some business and some jobs away from them...
User avatar
Taboo
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Eurozone recession hits

Post by Taboo »

Alexis wrote:
noddy wrote:i get so confused between the rants about the stupid germans being workaholic spendthrifts and then the rants about the conspiracy behind germany being a productive country.

personally id prefer living in a cruisier place with a less stressed lifestyle and i accept that means less goodies - less services, less toys .. less.. least you get time to enjoy the ones you do have.
Actually, according to OECD data, Germans are among those working the shorter hours.

Average annual hours actually worked per worker stood in 2011 at:
- 2032 in Greece
- 1787 in the USA
- 1774 in Italy
- 1728 in Japan
- 1711 in Portugal
- 1690 in Spain
- 1625 in the UK
- 1543 in Ireland
- 1476 in France, and finally...
...1413 in Germany !

Among OECD countries, only the Dutch put up less hours than Germans, and not by a very large margin: 1379

However, my personal experience, in agreement with that of quite a few colleagues, from France and from other countries, is that it's less the number of hours you work that counts than the actual work you do during that time, and how much you allow friction within your work and with co-workers to degrade efficiency of the part of your precious time that you spend for purposes other than your very personal ones.

Ideally, one should perform one's working responsibilities within the shortest possible time, then go pursuing other personal activities.
If one is the champion for that kind of efficiency, one could e.g. go in downtown Amsterdam to smoke some pot... :lol:
Never trust statistics when you don't explain the context and data issues. The Germany number is highly misleading, because of part-time female participation and because of a uniquely German phenomenon known as minijobs:
Germany’s “minijobs”
Germany’s “minijobs” escape measurement. A
growing number of people work in such jobs, also
called “one-euro jobs”—positions that have a limit on
the hours that can be worked and that offer wages
on which earnings are not subject to income taxes
and employer taxes are reduced. The program was
intended to create jobs for the unemployed, but employed workers have taken on minijobs as second jobs
because of the tax advantage. In 2004, minijobs accounted for about 12 percent of employment, and 37
percent of minijobs went to people who had another
job. Minijobs are excluded from the administrative
framework of tax collection, so data on the hours
worked at them and the number of jobs they generate
are excluded from hours-worked statistics (personal
communication, Dr. Ulrich Walwei, Bundesagentur
für Arbeit/Institute for Employment Research, Germany, April 2006).

Even 5 minutes' research will reveal that the lower number in Germany is because of aforementioned minijobs, and also (compared to Greece, Portugal or Spain) massive labor participation by women with children who work part-time, ( 70% of the female population 15-64 is in employment at roughly 3:2 full to part-time), whereas in Greece the women drop out of the labor force completely (40% participation with a full/part-time ratio of 10:1 for women).
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