The Future of the EU

User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Gold, Silver & Rice.....

Post by monster_gardener »

Parodite wrote:
Endovelico wrote:A common currency is a logical follow-up on a united economy.


I would say a currency represents an economy that belongs to a socio-political unity. It is totally natural that European countries, as socio-political units, have their own currencies that operate and compete in open markets world wide. Europe is not a social-political unity and doesn't need to become one. Why?
But it does require either a nation-by-nation trade balance (which can be achieved with adequate investment) or the willingness to make up trade deficits with wealth redistribution by means of public funds.
I think manipulating, let alone trying to control trade deficits alias import/export balance sheets by shoving around trucks with money is a waste of time. Bit like trying to control climate change. Squeeze the tire here or there.. all you do is create an extra layer of noise in a complex dynamic system that cannot be controlled by anyone.

What stands as a rock though, is the need for socio-political units such as EU nations to be able to produce goods and services. National governments can only to a degree play a positive role in stimulating their economies, unfortunately they tend be in the way most of the time by allowing national deficits to grow irresponsibly, corruption, governmental overhead that only serves government and not the people they supposedly represent.. and most dangerously engage in inbreeding behavior with big financial institutions managed by criminals who love governments and citizens go into bigger and bigger debts, because our deficit is how those guys make their big money. Too big to fail and too big to go to jail of course is something they discovered is an awesome insurance policy and they will milk that cow until.. we stop them.

Instead of moving around trucks with EU money to balance national trade deficits, which is idiotic in my view, a better approach would be to reform the financial industry first, so that banks can become again responsible institutions that serve the real economy. This cannot be done without reforming the political process as well, where the inbreeding of big money and politics should end. The oligarchic siamese evil twin must be separated with a big samurai sword, preferably a political and democratic one. Lest there will be a violent revolt.

Assume the financial industry is reformed and back to responsible health. And the oligarchic siamese twin separated. And national governments once and for all decide to stay away from too big deficits. (I would make that even a constitutional obligation) Then what about the EU and wealth distribution?

My approach to wealth distribution and social issues in the EU is simple.

As in any decent society, you create a social net and a poverty line below which nobody is allowed to perish. Free of charge, free of interest, you give physical support and money where needed. I don't mind paying taxes to support other Europeans that need it badly. You don´t save somebody from drowning and later ask money for it. To do that would be tasteless to say the least, and asking interest on top would be even evil.

But when it comes to economic development, the creation of wealth, it is a different ball game. A healthy banking system that functions independently from politics (!) really can do miracles here. Any good man with a good plan - which can be an individual, a group of individuals who start a business or a co-op, or even a government - can borrow money from any healthy bank to kick-start something from scratch that can grow.. create wealth and well being, contribute to a long term productive economy.

As long as 1) governments decide to not mess up their national economies with irresponsible deficits or market interferences that don't serve anybody except bureaucrats and 2) the financial industry is reformed.. the tides of trade deficits-surpluses will just go with the flow and are not something to worry about.
Thank you Very Much for your posts Endo & Rhapsody-Parodite,

Wondering if something that might jump start the economy of a confederation or an individual nation would be a non-phony currency.....

Something like making a gram of gold or silver the unit..... Something harder ;-) for politician and central banksters to mess with........

At least gold and silver can be used for some practical purposes....

While paper money can at best be burned and most money these days is just opto-magnetic domains on a computer...

At one time dollars were silver certificates and could be exchanged for silver rather than Federal Reserve Notes useful mostly because they can be used to pay taxes to the Fudderal ;-) GumMint ;-) oops I mean Federal Govt.

If you want sometime even more practical, how about Food Certificates.... Say enough rice ~1 pound/450 to 500 grams to support a human for 1 day ~1600+ calories* .......



Have read that White rice properly stored is Pretty near eternal/long expiration date.....



*More than enough for a woman, probably a little short for a man.... Depends on a number of factors....

http://www.livestrong.com/article/30042 ... s-survive/
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: The Future of the EU

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Sorry I missed this.
Typhoon wrote: A bit rich considering.

The logic does not follow: anecdotes does not imply insularity.
When one learns the stats then anecdotes lose their weight, so yes, people insulated from stats are more easily swayed by anecdotal evidence.
The Airbus 350 competitor to the troubled Boeing 787 is a matter of public record.
I have no idea what this has to do with anything. 1% of the global population knows anything about it, and Airbus does not make Europeans have more kids, get them out of bankruptcy or change the ponzi nature of their gov't programs.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Alexis
Posts: 1305
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Gold, Silver & Rice.....

Post by Alexis »

monster_gardener wrote:While paper money can at best be burned and most money these days is just opto-magnetic domains on a computer...
Actually, paper money of failed hyperinflated currencies can also be put to other uses than to be burnt for heat.

However, it is generally prohibited:

Image
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27665
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: The Future of the EU

Post by Typhoon »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Sorry I missed this.
Typhoon wrote: A bit rich considering.

The logic does not follow: anecdotes does not imply insularity.
When one learns the stats then anecdotes lose their weight, so yes, people insulated from stats are more easily swayed by anecdotal evidence.
Indeed.

Image

Image
Mr. Perfect wrote:
The Airbus 350 competitor to the troubled Boeing 787 is a matter of public record.
I have no idea what this has to do with anything. 1% of the global population knows anything about it, and Airbus does not make Europeans have more kids, get them out of bankruptcy or change the ponzi nature of their gov't programs.
Airbus is real, the rest are speculative extrapolations.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: The Future of the EU

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote: Indeed.
Ermm, your statistics support your position in what way. You charts show the major nations going bankrupt, which supports my position and negates yours.
Airbus is real, the rest are speculative extrapolations.
Airbus is of no significance, the data dooming Europe is set in stone.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Toilet Paper Money

Post by monster_gardener »

Alexis wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:While paper money can at best be burned and most money these days is just opto-magnetic domains on a computer...
Actually, paper money of failed hyperinflated currencies can also be put to other uses than to be burnt for heat.

However, it is generally prohibited:

Image
Thank you VERY MUCH for your post, Alexis.

Point to You, Alexis ;) :lol:

Recalling novelty toilet paper designed to look like money.............

Zim dollars...........
The Zimbabwean dollar (sign: $, or Z$ to distinguish it from other dollar-denominated currencies) was the official currency of Zimbabwe from 1980 to 12 April 2009, with three periods of inflation.

Although the dollar was considered to be among the highest-valued currency units when it was introduced in 1980 to replace the Rhodesian dollar at par, political turmoil and hyperinflation rapidly eroded the value of the Zimbabwe dollar to become one of the least valued currency units in the world, undergoing three redenominations, with high face value paper denominations, including a $100 trillion banknote (1014).[2] The third redenomination produced the "fourth dollar" (ZWL), which was worth 1 trillion ZWR (third dollar), or 1025 ZWD (first dollar).

Despite attempts to control inflation by legislation, and three redenominations (in 2006, 2008 and 2009), use of the Zimbabwean dollar as an official currency was effectively abandoned on 12 April 2009 due to the skyrocketing inflation. According to some sources, a person would starve on just a billion Zimbabwe dollars. [3] This was a result of the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe legalising use of foreign currencies for transactions in January 2009.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean ... bandonment

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 009%29.jpg

The Zim dollar with its rocks reminds me of an old rhyme......

Save up your pennies
And throw away your rocks..
And you'll always have tobacco
In your old tobacco box ;)

Sounds like the rocks might be more valuable than the money.........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5779
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Gold, Silver & Rice.....

Post by Parodite »

monster_gardener wrote:Thank you Very Much for your posts Endo & Rhapsody-Parodite,

Wondering if something that might jump start the economy of a confederation or an individual nation would be a non-phony currency.....

Something like making a gram of gold or silver the unit..... Something harder ;-) for politician and central banksters to mess with........

At least gold and silver can be used for some practical purposes....
Gold and silver in and of themselves are nothing. Bit like old timer cars or objects of overrated art. Bubble gum. You can put your bets there and speculate for as long as.. well..

Real value is always and only in real economic activity, people that produce services and goods, technology, science, education. And political and social structures that support those activities. National currencies seem to me still the best mediums of exchange in the free international market. Healthy and responsible banks can easily boost poorer areas with loans.
Post Reply