Hungary

[Ibrahim]

who approve of the rest of his political program can claim that he isn't.

Also, what does the rest of his political program have to do with antisemitism.

You like the rest of his political program, but you don't like that he's an antisemite.

[Mr. Perfect]

I don't know what his political program is and I have no reason to believe he is an antisemite.

[Typhoon]

It seems like you are trying to change the subject. Your started out claiming Orban was an antisemite, openly.

He is. But he does it in such a way that people who approve of the rest of his political program can claim that he isn't.

You've actually demonstrated this in practice quite well, your digression into Clintonland aside.

YNet | Netanyahu tells Hungarian PM Israel is defending Europe

As the nationalist leader Victor Orbán kicks off three-day visit to Israel, Prime Minister Netanyahu thanks him for defending Israel on the world stage 'time and again', praising Hungary for leading ‘the charge in changing the way Israel is treated in international forum.'

Being anti-Soros does not make Orban an anti-semite.

Soros is for open borders. Orban is against.

Considering the current problems in various Western European countries, especially for Jews, Orban may have a point.

A first-hand account by our former Spenglerman.

[Mr. Perfect]

These days agreeing with and supporting Israel and or Netanyahu is seen as being anti semitic.

You gotta get woke bro.

[Typhoon]

These days agreeing with and supporting Israel and or Netanyahu is seen as being anti semitic.

You gotta get woke bro.

As with the Great Awakening, I think I'll give the Great Awokening a pass.

[Ibrahim]

It seems like you are trying to change the subject. Your started out claiming Orban was an antisemite, openly.

He is. But he does it in such a way that people who approve of the rest of his political program can claim that he isn't.

You've actually demonstrated this in practice quite well, your digression into Clintonland aside.

YNet | Netanyahu tells Hungarian PM Israel is defending Europe

As the nationalist leader Victor Orbán kicks off three-day visit to Israel, Prime Minister Netanyahu thanks him for defending Israel on the world stage 'time and again', praising Hungary for leading ‘the charge in changing the way Israel is treated in international forum.'

Being anti-Soros does not make Orban an anti-semite.

Soros is for open borders. Orban is against.

Considering the current problems in various Western European countries, especially for Jews, Orban may have a point.

A first-hand account by our former Spenglerman.

Who do I believe? Netanyahu and Spengler, or the ADL and Jewish organizations in Hungary?


The Soros conspiracy theory is interesting to me. Its caught on so strongly around the world, and is viewed as so sinister, when he's in fact just another of many very wealthy people who throw their money and influence behind their pet political projects. Antisemitism is the only reasonable explanation, especially since it coincides with the rise of populist far-right politics across the Western world.

But we won't have to guess much longer. Soros is a very old man, and when he dies I think we'll see this fear and mistrust of Soros latch itself onto another prominent Jewish figure, or simply generalize itself onto "the Jews" as a group, as it has in the past to such horrific results. Jewish conservatives and their allies who back people like Orban just because he hates Muslims and socialists are playing with fire.

This is my view generally about the politics of hatred. You start out just hating one group, but it never stops there. First you dehumanize one group, then another, and so on. But that's a broader philosophical topic beyond the purview of Hungary specifically. I will say that Orban and those like him are the near future of much or all of Europe. I hope its less harmful than it was last time.

[Mr. Perfect]

Who do I believe? Netanyahu and Spengler, or the ADL and Jewish organizations in Hungary?

Some of us can find and process information for ourselves.

The Soros conspiracy theory is interesting to me.

What is the Soros conspiracy.

Its caught on so strongly around the world, and is viewed as so sinister, when he's in fact just another of many very wealthy people who throw their money and influence behind their pet political projects.

And if you disagree with his pet political project you are supposed to do what, exactly.

Antisemitism is the only reasonable explanation, especially since it coincides with the rise of populist far-right politics across the Western world.

The only reasonable explanation for what.

But we won't have to guess much longer. Soros is a very old man, and when he dies I think we'll see this fear and mistrust of Soros latch itself onto another prominent Jewish figure, or simply generalize itself onto "the Jews" as a group, as it has in the past to such horrific results.

I see a lot of right wingers latching onto a lot of jews, like the ones that live in Israel, and they seem to have love in their hearts

Jewish conservatives and their allies who back people like Orban just because he hates Muslims and socialists are playing with fire.

I thought you were saying he was an anti-semite, not an anti muslim.

This is my view generally about the politics of hatred. You start out just hating one group, but it never stops there.

Well, you would know.

First you dehumanize one group, then another, and so on.

Seems like you are starting with conservative jews. If you get to hate people you have to let other people do it.

But that's a broader philosophical topic beyond the purview of Hungary specifically. I will say that Orban and those like him are the near future of much or all of Europe. I hope its less harmful than it was last time.

So I suppose you are predicting a holocaust. Are you going to apologize when the holocaust does not happen.

[Parodite]

The EU debacle is primarily caused by the erosion of the sovereignty of its member states. They are all relatively young democracies emerging from various dark pasts not too long ago. Destroy these young emerging local democratic flowers and various spooks of the past like antisemitism will find new fuel to express themselves.

[Mr. Perfect]

There is a definitely anti semitism in Europe, no question. Strangely not coming from the right wing:

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[Parodite]

I find these categories right-wing vs left-wing as the two main umbrellas utterly useless. Why not good-wing versus bad-wing for starters?

Were the Bolsheviks right-wing or left-wing? Was Hitler a left-wing socialist or a right-wing fascist? Are radical Islamists left-wing or right-wing? Christian zealots who want a just and loving society but also want the state to interfere in personal affairs like marriage..are they not left-wing totalitarians who love the hammer of an autocratic state? Or is that a right-wing feature?

Some are convinced Mussolini was a right-wing fascist, others see fascism as a brand of pure left-wing national socialism.

Are people who want lower taxes always more right-wing? Who want extremely low taxes are they far-right wing? Would that far-right wing be one step away from left-wing fascism or from right-wing autocratic communism?

Thinking about it, the Judeo-Christians may have a point. Good versus Bad is maybe a better way of categorizing at the highest level.

In general, what would good-wingers and bad-wingers want, in what different ways do they hope to find the stairway to heaven and avoid the road to hell? Do they want the same thing and just disagree on the how-to, or do they have really different goals? What typical behaviors and ways of thinking do they exhibit?

[Typhoon]

It seems like you are trying to change the subject. Your started out claiming Orban was an antisemite, openly.

He is. But he does it in such a way that people who approve of the rest of his political program can claim that he isn't.

You've actually demonstrated this in practice quite well, your digression into Clintonland aside.

YNet | Netanyahu tells Hungarian PM Israel is defending Europe

As the nationalist leader Victor Orbán kicks off three-day visit to Israel, Prime Minister Netanyahu thanks him for defending Israel on the world stage 'time and again', praising Hungary for leading ‘the charge in changing the way Israel is treated in international forum.'

Being anti-Soros does not make Orban an anti-semite.

Soros is for open borders. Orban is against.

Considering the current problems in various Western European countries, especially for Jews, Orban may have a point.

A first-hand account by our former Spenglerman.

Who do I believe? Netanyahu and Spengler, or the ADL and Jewish organizations in Hungary?

CItations?

It's a matter of record that the few EU member having good relations with Israel are Hungary, the Czech Republic, Romania, and the Baltic States, notably Lithuania.

The Soros conspiracy theory is interesting to me. Its caught on so strongly around the world, and is viewed as so sinister, when he's in fact just another of many very wealthy people who throw their money and influence behind their pet political projects. Antisemitism is the only reasonable explanation, especially since it coincides with the rise of populist far-right politics across the Western world.

I don't recall mentioning conspiracy. One may disagree with a program without being a conspiracy theorist.

These days, in the West, anti-semitism is part of the ideology of the left. An irony of history.

But we won't have to guess much longer. Soros is a very old man, and when he dies I think we'll see this fear and mistrust of Soros latch itself onto another prominent Jewish figure, or simply generalize itself onto "the Jews" as a group, as it has in the past to such horrific results. Jewish conservatives and their allies who back people like Orban just because he hates Muslims and socialists are playing with fire.

Odd that a nation wishing to control it's borders and immigration is labeled as being right-wing by many.

Mass immigration without cultural assimilation is a prescription for problems.
N Am has been a success, to-date, by offering people a new identity and economic opportunity with the condition that they leave the the cultural baggage that motivated them to emigrate, in the first place, behind.

Lots of speculation regarding the future on your part.

This is my view generally about the politics of hatred. You start out just hating one group, but it never stops there. First you dehumanize one group, then another, and so on. But that's a broader philosophical topic beyond the purview of Hungary specifically. I will say that Orban and those like him are the near future of much or all of Europe. I hope its less harmful than it was last time.

I'd be more concerned about the curtailing of freedom and democracy in the name of Orwellian name of diversity and tolerance by the current rulers in the Western part of the EU.

[Typhoon]

The EU debacle is primarily caused by the erosion of the sovereignty of its member states. They are all relatively young democracies emerging from various dark pasts not too long ago. Destroy these young emerging local democratic flowers and various spooks of the past like antisemitism will find new fuel to express themselves.

Good point.

The EU should have stayed as an economic union, not attempting to become a political one with an additional layers of bureaucracy with their anti-democratic tendencies.

[Parodite]

The EU debacle is primarily caused by the erosion of the sovereignty of its member states. They are all relatively young democracies emerging from various dark pasts not too long ago. Destroy these young emerging local democratic flowers and various spooks of the past like antisemitism will find new fuel to express themselves.

Good point.

The EU should have stayed as an economic union, not attempting to become a political one with additional layers of bureaucracy with their anti-democratic tendencies.

Indeed. Unfortunately it was the plan all along to introduce the Euro as a means to necessitate further political integration, meaning a European Central Bank, central fiscal policy super-imposed on national fiscal policies, a European parliament and commission pumping out more bureaucratic transnational regulations and finally a European army defending European borders. The ideal of a United States of Europe with its own constitution, which most Europeans don't want.

[Ibrahim]

Who do I believe? Netanyahu and Spengler, or the ADL and Jewish organizations in Hungary?

CItations?

The Jerusalem Post column I linked on the previous page referred to the ADL saying that antisemitism on Hungary was rising more quickly and any nation in Europe, and Jewish organizations in Hungary objected to the inclusion of antisemitic authors in Hungarian school textbooks, a move begun by Orban's party.

It's a matter of record that the few EU member having good relations with Israel are Hungary, the Czech Republic, Romania, and the Baltic States, notably Lithuania

As I said in my initial post, there is a perverse logic in antisemites and the current Israeli government allying. Similar to Israel and Saudi Arabia cooperating to pen in both Iran and Sunni Islamist populist movements.

The Soros conspiracy theory is interesting to me. Its caught on so strongly around the world, and is viewed as so sinister, when he's in fact just another of many very wealthy people who throw their money and influence behind their pet political projects. Antisemitism is the only reasonable explanation, especially since it coincides with the rise of populist far-right politics across the Western world.

I don't recall mentioning conspiracy. One may disagree with a program without being a conspiracy theorist.

I'm only pointing out the massive role Soros plays in far-right conspiracy theories, not that you adhere to or are even aware of those theories. You can Google around if you want to go down some rabbit holes and read some insane nonsense. Suffice to say the far right is very obsessed with him. But as with left-wing obsessions with the Koch and Mercer families, it is based on the kernel of truth that these people do wield outsize political influence.

These days, in the West, anti-semitism is part of the ideology of the left. An irony of history.

I would argue that the left is overly obsessed with the Israeli government and its treatment of the Palestinians. This is a different degree than the alt-right obsession with sinister Jewish control of the world, personified by Soros.

Odd that a nation wishing to control it's borders and immigration is labeled as being right-wing by many.

The hard left is communist, and communism is philosophically internationalist. The hard right is ethno-nationalist. It stands to reason that the milder forms of right and left-wing thought would fall as they do at various points on opposite sides of the immigration question.

This is my view generally about the politics of hatred. You start out just hating one group, but it never stops there. First you dehumanize one group, then another, and so on. But that's a broader philosophical topic beyond the purview of Hungary specifically. I will say that Orban and those like him are the near future of much or all of Europe. I hope its less harmful than it was last time.

I'd be more concerned about the curtailing of freedom and democracy in the name of Orwellian name of diversity and tolerance by the current rulers in the Western part of the EU.

Is the average person freer in "Orwellian" Germany with its hordes of migrants? Or in Orban's Hungary or Duda's Poland? We're going to get more Orban-like figures in Europe and we'll soon have our answers.

[Parodite]

When national democracies in the EU have their sovereignty eaten away and the voters no longer feel they have a say on who enters their country, how many and on what terms.. the discussion is over.

Losing your vote over immigration is just one of the things people are loosing their votes on. It all adds up to the sense that our democracies are under threat, being hollowed out. Transnational corporate and political monopolies have emerged and are growing. Central banks are calling the shots. It all doesn't help.

Losing your vote means public debate and voting are rendered useless. In Hungary there is still a substantial diversity of political opinions and ideals on the (cursed) left-right spectrum so if democracy and sovereignty were to be restored they can discuss, agree or agree to disagree and in the end..VOTE... on things that concern them. And maybe vote differently next time if things didn't work out as expected. Or if they changed their minds...

I don't know what's worse: ethno-nationalists fighting to preserve democracy, or feel-good leftists willing to sacrifice democracy for a border-less utopia.

People who believe this is all and only about immigration, or make it all about immigration like Le Pen in France are making a serious mistake. It is about democracy itself. There is nothing to talk about without democracy.

[Ibrahim]

I'm inclined to agree with Houellebecq ( ) on at least one point: Switzerland is the most democratic country on Earth.

It hasn't created the most dynamic and exciting culture, but it seems like a nice place to retire. And there isn't as much anti-government street violence.



Is Hungary on the path to more robust democracy? I don't think so, but at the moment the government is popular enough that it looks like one. We shall see.

[noddy]

Hungary is also having riots , this time over "slave laws" , which to someone from an anglo country are mostly quaint hah. sigh.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46551904

they can be forced (? sacked) for not working up to 48 hrs a week for a total of 400 hours overtime a year, also however, their is an odious component that allows the company up to 3 years on non payment on that overtime.

Im not sure what my legal rights are in Australia (I fear it depends on perceived size of company) but i do know that refusing to do overtime in a situation that the company needs results is a one way trip to finding yourself unemployed, so that aspect of the law is just formalizing reality.

not being paid, is a different kettle of fish.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

. . .

It's a plan two hundred years in the making.

December 4th, 1863 New York TImes: Napoleon's Proposition for a European Congress of Sovereigns

[noddy]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rgency-law

on the sly, the Hungarian leader has given himself war time powers, without limit, suspending parliament.

so the EU now officially has a dictatorship in it, wonder how its pompous rules will handle that.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

That is not a good turn of events.

[YMix]

Been there, done that in 1919.

[Typhoon]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rgency-law

on the sly, the Hungarian leader has given himself war time powers, without limit, suspending parliament.

so the EU now officially has a dictatorship in it, wonder how its pompous rules will handle that.

Not a fan of Orbanization.

No single individual can run something as complex as a country.

[Typhoon]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rgency-law

on the sly, the Hungarian leader has given himself war time powers, without limit, suspending parliament.

so the EU now officially has a dictatorship in it, wonder how its pompous rules will handle that.

About that.

Spike | The ceaseless culture war against Hungary

Western cultural elites despise Hungary because it refuses to play by their political rules.

And now there has been a development. This week, the Hungarian government initiated procedures to end the state of emergency. It will end on 20 June. This means Hungary has acted more speedily than many other governments to bring to a close its Covid measures. Will those who spread the idea that Hungary had become a dictatorship acknowledge that they were wrong?

[noddy]

true enough, no love for Hungary or Poland by any of the liberal rags, cant be all anti gay and nationalist and not trigger them.

Id since read elsewhere the whole thing was a charade anyway as his party had a 2/3 majority in parliament, so it could be considered a stunt just to annoy those same people - apparently one of the laws passed using the special powers was to ban trannies.

I cant buy into the conspiracy analysis on all that, xenophobic nationalism has a history in Europe and the distaste for it has been quite high in the ruling class for a while now.

WW2 wasnt a small thing.

[Simple Minded]

true enough, no love for Hungary or Poland by any of the liberal rags, cant be all anti gay and nationalist and not trigger them.

Id since read elsewhere the whole thing was a charade anyway as his party had a 2/3 majority in parliament, so it could be considered a stunt just to annoy those same people - apparently one of the laws passed using the special powers was to ban trannies.

I cant buy into the conspiracy analysis on all that, xenophobic nationalism has a history in Europe and the distaste for it has been quite high in the ruling class for a while now.

WW2 wasnt a small thing.

Banning trannies? Automatic or manual? Virtual Signalling Alert: I hate transmission-o-phobes!