Another question for Muslims . . .

[Parodite]

I can't really think of anything to add to that total meltdown. Rhapsody has conveniently strung himself up. Every single statement in that post was either patently false or obviously insane.

If anybody thinks they can defend a single shred of it, please point it out.

Most likely nobody cares, Fred.

But since it is hard to make sense for you what this is all about, just try to imprint the forum rules that the mod referred you to a number of times. You should make your argument without name calling; bigot, racist etc. If you just stop that, all problems are solved.

But you are a bigot, and your positions are discriminatory and immoral. It serves no purpose coddling you and going soft on your hate-filled and immoral views just because you are also unstable.

Moreover, you spew this filth, unprovoked, in as many threads as you can, sometimes starting new threads just to repeat the same skinhead talking points.

Also, why are you now calling me "Fred?" You never settled on why you were calling me a monkey, maybe you can explain this one. I'm not up on all the latest Dutch racial slurs. It seems somewhat ironic that you would refer me to rules on civility when you introduce personal attacks, slurs, and generally offensive (if laughable) white supremacist arguments at every opportunity.

Hilarious man. You can think of me what you want, you are entirely entiteled and even supposed to do that. But for the sake of discussion and the quality of this forum, the forum rules politely ask you to not always use the terms you'd prefer to use, i.e. refrain from name calling. It simply is not up to you to decide if what I write is acceptible or not and should or should not be met with firm and personal verbiage that we all know you master very well. You thought it unfair I could spout my racist bigoted hatefilled
material while you were asked to stop call those babies by their name: it is tough, we all empathize.

[Ibrahim]

I can't really think of anything to add to that total meltdown. Rhapsody has conveniently strung himself up. Every single statement in that post was either patently false or obviously insane.

If anybody thinks they can defend a single shred of it, please point it out.

Most likely nobody cares, Fred.

But since it is hard to make sense for you what this is all about, just try to imprint the forum rules that the mod referred you to a number of times. You should make your argument without name calling; bigot, racist etc. If you just stop that, all problems are solved.

But you are a bigot, and your positions are discriminatory and immoral. It serves no purpose coddling you and going soft on your hate-filled and immoral views just because you are also unstable.

Moreover, you spew this filth, unprovoked, in as many threads as you can, sometimes starting new threads just to repeat the same skinhead talking points.

Also, why are you now calling me "Fred?" You never settled on why you were calling me a monkey, maybe you can explain this one. I'm not up on all the latest Dutch racial slurs. It seems somewhat ironic that you would refer me to rules on civility when you introduce personal attacks, slurs, and generally offensive (if laughable) white supremacist arguments at every opportunity.

Hilarious man. You can think of me what you want, you are entirely entiteled and even supposed to do that. But for the sake of discussion and the quality of this forum, the forum rules politely ask you to not always use the terms you'd prefer to use, i.e. refrain from name calling.

You use name-calling and slurs constantly.

It simply is not up to you to decide if what I write is acceptible or not and should or should not be met with firm and personal verbiage that we all know you master very well. You thought it unfair I could spout my racist bigoted hatefilled
material while you were asked to stop call those babies by their name: it is tough, we all empathize.

This part makes no sense. Are you referring to something that happened before you threw a tantrum and threatened to leave the forum? Or is correctly referring to your constant garbage posted in every thread as bigoted and racist your way of admitting your false claims earlier in this thread? And who is "we?"

All I can really make out is that you are begging for the special privilege of posting your nonsensical propaganda in as many threads as possible, yet not have it identified for what it is. That's not going to happen.

[Parodite]

Fred, for special preveleges allowing you to call other members bigot, racist, neonazi only because they criticize Islam, aspects thereof and/or the malevolent behavior of some Muslims or Islamic governments that want to kill you on grounds of blasphemy; please contact the moderators. They already put you on notice a number of times, but your fossilized skull appears unable to grasp the obvious and let the light in. Your neocortex seems quite able to grock modern realities, but your Islamic faith appears to have rooted in the older brain stem where light nor reason can do any work and premordial reptilian reflexes call the shots.

[Ibrahim]

I will identify, and subsequently rebut, bigoted or racist garbage whenever I see it. Sparing the feelings of morally repugnant propagandists does not factor into my considerations, nor do the rules of any forum. The moderators can respond to my posts as they see fit, I will respond to your hateful posts as I see fit.


Your malicious propaganda deserves, nay begs, to be torn to bits, and so it is, and so it will continue to be.

[YMix]

Here we go again. Take it easy, guys

[Simple Minded]

Here we go again. Take it easy, guys

Ya gotta luv a passionate dinner table discussion!

At least it keeps them in front of their monitors and off the streets......

[Ibrahim]

Here we go again. Take it easy, guys

At least the question of whether or not Muslims can pray with other people was solved first.

[Parodite]

Fred, we can have an argument without name calling. This is what the Moderators asked you and me to do. As long as you don't, I won't either; promise. I'm not into the business of returning lavender with compassion or silky cheaks.

People will by now have made up their minds about you and me the way they see fit anyways or they didn't care to bother, so continuing your obsessive name calling does not add value to your arguments, rather it devaluates them and leaves you as a man without honor - whether you are aware of it or not.

If you find it hard to understand that it is better to refrain from name calling and instead use informed argument as the only weapon that you can still use in shredding the terrible bigot racists and their hatefilled posts to pieces but in a civilized way... I'll stick around to help you reach that point. We want to remove the impression that Muslims can't handle criticism without resorting to verbal agression, let alone physical violence. To your and your bretherns benefit. Free of charge.

[Ibrahim]

This is what the Moderators asked you and me to do.

You aren't a moderator, nor are you their spokesman. If I want to know what a moderator thinks I'll ask them.

In any case I'll say what I want, when I want.

If you find it hard to understand that it is better to refrain from name calling

You prefaced this post by calling me a name, and have repeatedly used names and racial slurs to refer to me, from repeatedly calling me a monkey to once referring to me as "an evil night horse," whatever that is.

The fact that you are trying to give anyone advice on this is hypocritical and hilarious.

We want to remove the impression that Muslims can't handle criticism without resorting to verbal agression, let alone physical violence. To your and your bretherns benefit. Free of charge.

This is bigoted nonsense, which is why I correctly refer to you as a bigot. Also, you'll need my help long before I'll need yours.

[Parodite]

This is what the Moderators asked you and me to do.

You aren't a moderator, nor are you their spokesman.

Didn't claim to be, just reminding you what they said. A difference too delicate to discern for you, I know.

If I want to know what a moderator thinks I'll ask them.

You don't appear very interested in what they think. You actually opposed the Colonel's decision to include you in exchanges that were clipped into Hell, while he also considered you guilty of crime.

In any case I'll say what I want, when I want.

With the effect we all witness.

If you find it hard to understand that it is better to refrain from name calling

You prefaced this post by calling me a name, and have repeatedly used names and racial slurs to refer to me, from repeatedly calling me a monkey to once referring to me as "an evil night horse," whatever that is.

I respond to your slurs with slurs, name calling with name calling.

The fact that you are trying to give anyone advice on this is hypocritical and hilarious.

Just saying what I want, when I want.

We want to remove the impression that Muslims can't handle criticism without resorting to verbal agression, let alone physical violence. To your and your bretherns benefit. Free of charge.

This is bigoted nonsense, which is why I correctly refer to you as a bigot.

I just love to pay back in same currency. Whether it is name calling, twisted and devious lines of reasoning only meant to turn the other into poo... Love the excercise.

Also, you'll need my help long before I'll need yours.

You are suggesting you can't be helped? I'm not there yet..

[Ibrahim]

I respond to your slurs with slurs, name calling with name calling.

Is there a difference between calling somebody a bigot and calling them a monkey? A difference too delicate to discern for you, I know.

Love the excercise.

That explains the meltdowns, deleted accounts, etc. You're clearly having a good time....

[Parodite]

I respond to your slurs with slurs, name calling with name calling.

Is there a difference between calling somebody a bigot and calling them a monkey? A difference too delicate to discern for you, I know.

Not too much difference. Eye for an eye, remember?

Love the excercise.

That explains the meltdowns, deleted accounts, etc. You're clearly having a good time....

You can call it a meltdown as that suits you. I left because on Tinkers list the moderating couple Tinker-Ymix decided to leave your initial slurs in tact and clipping only the rest into the Hell section, with Tinker initiating a type of contest thread of type "who is the biggest Jerk" where I clearly "won". This told me that by and large the entire list of "friends" had not grown out of their traumas caused by Pastaneta et-al yet, and probably felt you needed protection - for otherwise obscure reasons. Not a party I'd like to stay any longer than necessary.

The moderating couple Colonel-Ymix is quite different and more even handed. For a moment I thought nothing changed, so indeed why waste time here? But notably and short thereafter the Colonel has shown to be able to identify where the lavender starts, which has been you on equal occasion. He notified you on those instances - which horrified you and left you in dismay protesting incoherently. As he correctly observed: some people see a Muslim terrorist under every stone, others see a Muslim hater lurking behind any criticism on Islam. Same paranoia.

The similarity between Pasteneta and you is stunning, you are not related by any chance? Criticize Israeli politics and you are baptised into an anti-Semite. Criticise Islam, or even just mention factual excesses in Islamic culture... and you are transformed into a Muslim hating bigot, racist and supporter of Neonazism. Won't help you, Fred.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

That's right. A lot of interfaith strife and even war in Europe which supports my point: religion and its sects have contributed very little in learning people to live together as "different equals". The enlightenment, democracy, capitalism (the good sort) and church-state separation have done that job.

And yet modernity has managed no net decrease in the depth or scale of human suffering. But I suppose it represents a modicum of progress if men are slaughtering one another over natural resources and political ideology instead of ancient superstitions. I think at all times, the total amounts of suffering and joy remain more or less constant, and I don't count it as a failure of modernity that we are still killing each other by the millions. I have seen no evidence - save for fanciful tales in the ancient superstitions - that there is any other way to live.

[Ibrahim]

Is there a difference between calling somebody a bigot and calling them a monkey? A difference too delicate to discern for you, I know.

Not too much difference.

Heh, that's what I thought you'd say....

The similarity between Pasteneta and you is stunning, you are not related by any chance?

You've gone through this twice already. You're like Pastaneta because you both hate Muslims and spread propaganda compulsively in as many threads as possible to a tiny audience. I'm like me because I argued with you and Pastaneta in exactly the same way for exactly the same reason.

Criticise Islam, or even just mention factual excesses in Islamic culture...

That wasn't your platform. Your platform is verbally attacking strangers who appear Muslim to you for no reason. Also calling people monkeys.

[Ibrahim]

And yet modernity has managed no net decrease in the depth or scale of human suffering.

Clearly not correct. Vaccination programs alone have saved millions of lives in the third world.

[Parodite]

Is there a difference between calling somebody a bigot and calling them a monkey? A difference too delicate to discern for you, I know.

Not too much difference.

Heh, that's what I thought you'd say....

So you actually do think! That's progress.

The similarity between Pasteneta and you is stunning, you are not related by any chance?

You've gone through this twice already.

Compared to your tenfold repetitious and unsupported claims, that's modest.

You're like Pastaneta because you both hate Muslims and spread propaganda compulsively in as many threads as possible to a tiny audience.

Yawn.

I'm like me

We know. And what it means.

because I argued with you and Pastaneta in exactly the same way for exactly the same reason.

That's exactly right. And the reason exists between your ears; some badly wired neuronal connections.

Criticise Islam, or even just mention factual excesses in Islamic culture...

That wasn't your platform. Your platform is verbally attacking strangers who appear Muslim to you for no reason. Also calling people monkeys.

Outright lying.

How is it up there dangling in the tree?

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

And yet modernity has managed no net decrease in the depth or scale of human suffering.

Clearly not correct. Vaccination programs alone have saved millions of lives in the third world.

And I suppose Ritalin has been successful at helping clear the minds of children with overworked, unattentive parents, eating a diet of processed garbage, and who are confused and overstimulated by the sensory onslaught of modern life. I suppose we can call it progress when modernity spits out a solution for a problem caused or exacerbated by modernity.

The total level of suffering has not decreased. For every child saved from polio, there are ten children drinking from a river filled with raw sewage and industrial pollution, or being worked to the bone in stadium-sized sweatshops.

[Ibrahim]

And yet modernity has managed no net decrease in the depth or scale of human suffering.

Clearly not correct. Vaccination programs alone have saved millions of lives in the third world.

And I suppose Ritalin has been successful at helping clear the minds of children with overworked, unattentive parents, eating a diet of processed garbage, and who are confused and overstimulated by the sensory onslaught of modern life. I suppose we can call it progress when modernity spits out a solution for a problem caused or exacerbated by modernity.

Leprosy and the tsetse fly are products of modernity?

The total level of suffering has not decreased.

Except for all those people who didn't get preventable diseases...

[Ibrahim]

Outright lying.

Nobody believes you. You've stated and defended your bigoted positions in many threads.

[Parodite]

Outright lying.

Nobody believes you. You've stated and defended your bigoted positions in many threads.

If you were God Alknowingly and Almighty... perhaps I'd believe you; at least on the part where you claim to know what others think and concluded about my contributions. CAVEAT: you aren't.

Case dismissed.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

And yet modernity has managed no net decrease in the depth or scale of human suffering.

Clearly not correct. Vaccination programs alone have saved millions of lives in the third world.

And I suppose Ritalin has been successful at helping clear the minds of children with overworked, unattentive parents, eating a diet of processed garbage, and who are confused and overstimulated by the sensory onslaught of modern life. I suppose we can call it progress when modernity spits out a solution for a problem caused or exacerbated by modernity.

Leprosy and the tsetse fly are products of modernity?

The total level of suffering has not decreased.

Except for all those people who didn't get preventable diseases...

Preventable diseases like type II diabetes? We have certainly succeeded in improving the average length of human life, but I'm skeptical as to whether we have improved or damaged life's quality for the great majority of people. For every middle-class western whiteboy living in a suburban castle and eating food of kings, there are ten dead Indians or an IMF coup. And even the westerner is popping Prozac, zoning out on porn and video games, and finally settling in midlife for a few drinks every night to numb his gnawing anxiety. But at least he won't get leprosy.

[Ibrahim]

Hey, existential dread and overeating is a matter of personal responsibility, and perhaps effect more people today because they have time to stop and think about it or enjoy some leisure without being killed, starving to death, or dying of disease. But that's part and parcel of saving lives in the first place. Reductions in preventable diseases and infant mortality allow the possibility of the difficulties that are part of any life at all.

I don't see how inoculating African kids against river blindness is somehow not worthwhile because some North American eats too much dessert and gets type 2 diabetes.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

You ignored the other half of my post, which is that the African kids are buying their vaccines for the low, low price of the destruction of their culture in favor of western consumer capitalism, whose fruits they are nevertheless mostly excluded from, and for which they provide the most basic kind of human kindling. I suppose you can argue that they were no better off before, and that slavery under foreign masters is a small price to pay for a lower infant mortality rate, but I would have to disagree with you.

*EDIT* You seem to be of the opinion that there is such a possibility as modernity without barbarism. There isn't. That Americans can drive Hummers without oil wars. They can't. Hydroelectric dams and native American genocide go together like peas and carrots.

[Marcus]

Domino's Theory:

Another reason for the medical system's limited role in extending life is that, frankly, it kills so many people. Each year nearly two million patients in U.S. hospitals get an infection, about 90,000 of whom die as a result. According to the CDC, the largest preventable cause is doctors and nurses with dirty hands. Then there is the Institute of Medicine's well-publicized finding that "more people die in a given year as a result of medical errors than from motor vehicle accidents (43,458), breast cancer (42,297), or AIDS (16,516)." Such errors cause 2 to 4 percent of all deaths and derive not just from doctors' indecipherable handwriting or mix-ups in the lab, but also from a lack of the same kinds of systematic quality control procedures that are commonplace in workplaces from automakers to Domino's Pizza chains. Had the Institute considered deaths caused by medical errors outside of hospitals--in doctors' offices, pharmacies, or outpatient clinics--the fatality rate would be even higher.

Overmedication and adverse reactions to prescription drugs also cause unnecessary deaths. In 1994, these accounted for 106,000 deaths, according to the Journal of the American Medical Association. More people are killed by adverse reactions to prescription drugs than by pulmonary disease or accidents. In fact, prescription drug deaths are surpassed only by heart disease, cancer, and stroke. The elderly, whose bodies often can't tolerate the dosages and combinations of pills doctors prescribe them, are particularly susceptible.

Moreover, many of the treatments the medical system provides are unnecessary, further limiting their effect. Consider the wide regional disparity in the intensity of care given to patients. In Miami, the average Medicare patient is treated by 25 specialists during the last six months of life; in Minneapolis, such patients see only four specialists. Yet the result is exactly the same: death within six months. Where specialists are abundant, they find elders to treat--and Medicare pays, spending, for example, $50,000 more per patient in Miami than Minneapolis, as my colleague Shannon Brownlee recently wrote in The Atlantic. But according to John Wennberg of Dartmouth Medical School, elder persons living in regions where the use of specialists is high have no greater life expectancy than their counterparts in regions where it is low. Wennberg and his colleagues estimate that nearly 20 percent of Medicare expenditures provide no benefit in terms of survival, nor does evidence show improvement in quality of life.

—much more at the site

[Ibrahim]

You ignored the other half of my post, which is that the African kids are buying their vaccines for the low, low price of the destruction of their culture in favor of western consumer capitalism, whose fruits they are nevertheless mostly excluded from, and for which they provide the most basic kind of human kindling. I suppose you can argue that they were no better off before, and that slavery under foreign masters is a small price to pay for a lower infant mortality rate, but I would have to disagree with you.

What a strange and imaginary connection to assert. I can't approve of preventing river blindness without also approving of some form of slavery or destruction.

*EDIT* You seem to be of the opinion that there is such a possibility as modernity without barbarism. There isn't. That Americans can drive Hummers without oil wars. They can't. Hydroelectric dams and native American genocide go together like peas and carrots.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. That history has contained both the good and the bad (banal). Or that all future advances must be balanced off by an equal or greater amount of negative consequences (baseless). Or maybe you just want to say "bad things happen too!" in response to the general observation that goods thing sometimes happen (also banal).

It seems like you're trying to play me up as some naive sunny modernist just because I realize that modern medical science has saved millions of lives, and that you're some sort of steely-eyed realist because you know that bad things happen too.