Egypt

[Taboo]

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever, but the main thing I'd try to communicate to people unfamiliar with Egypt is that its not an accepted thing. There are too many people who do think its ok, but they don't approach anything like a majority. Even most of those who literally think Copts are inferior to Muslim Egyptians still don't think its right to harass or attack them. Minority communities have been protected in Islamic states since the beginning of Islam. Its what the now-infamous term "dhimmi" actually means.

And as a general rule you don't want to allow persecution of minorities in any way in any modern country.

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but how do you know that to be true? Can you point to any surveys?

No, I can't point to surveys. This is based on what I've read about Egypt from Egyptian sources, and the anecdotal evidence of Copts and Muslims working together during the revolution and the latter protecting the former after it.

Also my knowledge of history, wherein "Islamism" is a modern invention, and historically customs of hospitality trumped sectarianism, so that no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors. This was the norm for over a thousand years.

While I understand the utility of surveys in the modern news cycle and in Internet arguments, I seldom seek them out.

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever

no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors

So how do they do it then? Go to the next town over when they get the urge to burn a church? Take a bus a hack a copt?

[Ibrahim]

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever, but the main thing I'd try to communicate to people unfamiliar with Egypt is that its not an accepted thing. There are too many people who do think its ok, but they don't approach anything like a majority. Even most of those who literally think Copts are inferior to Muslim Egyptians still don't think its right to harass or attack them. Minority communities have been protected in Islamic states since the beginning of Islam. Its what the now-infamous term "dhimmi" actually means.

And as a general rule you don't want to allow persecution of minorities in any way in any modern country.

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but how do you know that to be true? Can you point to any surveys?

No, I can't point to surveys. This is based on what I've read about Egypt from Egyptian sources, and the anecdotal evidence of Copts and Muslims working together during the revolution and the latter protecting the former after it.

Also my knowledge of history, wherein "Islamism" is a modern invention, and historically customs of hospitality trumped sectarianism, so that no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors. This was the norm for over a thousand years.

While I understand the utility of surveys in the modern news cycle and in Internet arguments, I seldom seek them out.

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever

no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors

So how do they do it then? Go to the next town over when they get the urge to burn a church? Take a bus a hack a copt?

I don't understand your question.

[monster_gardener]

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever, but the main thing I'd try to communicate to people unfamiliar with Egypt is that its not an accepted thing. There are too many people who do think its ok, but they don't approach anything like a majority. Even most of those who literally think Copts are inferior to Muslim Egyptians still don't think its right to harass or attack them. Minority communities have been protected in Islamic states since the beginning of Islam. Its what the now-infamous term "dhimmi" actually means.

And as a general rule you don't want to allow persecution of minorities in any way in any modern country.

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but how do you know that to be true? Can you point to any surveys?

No, I can't point to surveys. This is based on what I've read about Egypt from Egyptian sources, and the anecdotal evidence of Copts and Muslims working together during the revolution and the latter protecting the former after it.

Also my knowledge of history, wherein "Islamism" is a modern invention, and historically customs of hospitality trumped sectarianism, so that no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors. This was the norm for over a thousand years.

While I understand the utility of surveys in the modern news cycle and in Internet arguments, I seldom seek them out.

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever

no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors

So how do they do it then? Go to the next town over when they get the urge to burn a church? Take a bus a hack a copt?

I don't understand your question.

Thank you for your post, Ibrahim

AND

Thank YOU VERY MUCH for your Post, Taboo.

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever

no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors

So how do they do it then? Go to the next town over when they get the urge to burn a church? Take a bus a hack a copt?

Brilliant post, Taboo!

And IMVHO, a most excellent question.


One minor nuance given Ibrahim's self confessed inability to understand your question

My suggestion is a rephrasing of the question as blunt and forceful as a Sledgehammer or St. Peter and the Archangel Gabriel blowing their horns :

"So how do the Arab Muslims in Egypt do the "Harassment of the Copts" which you, Ibrahim, have admitted "has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever"?

Do Arab Muslims in Egypt go to the next town over from where they live when Arab Muslims in Egypt get the urge to burn a church rather than burn a Christian church in their own town?

Do the Arab Muslims in Egypt take a bus or otherwise travel to the next town over or somewhere else where they do not live when they want a hack a Coptic Christian in Egypt?

Do do the Arab Muslims in Egypt go some sort of effort like that to make sure that the Coptic Christians that they harass and kill are NOT their neighbors since you have stated "no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors".

Actually this reminds me of the story of the Good Samaritan in the New Testament in which the crucial question was "Who is my Neighbor?"

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor? ”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

hqyc37aOqT0

[Typhoon]

z2rL6NDoyKg

[Ammianus]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/03/world ... es.html?hp

More than two years after the Egyptian uprising, the country’s new Islamist government has struggled to confront a drop in tourism and the faltering economy. But the leadership has remained silent about another crucial indicator that has surged to a 20-year high: the country’s birthrate. In fact, officials have avoided public discussion about population and dropped the awareness campaigns of the past, in an early indication of how the Islamist leadership is approaching social policy in the most populous Arab state.

After two decades of steady declines and modest increases, the birthrate in 2012 reached about 32 for every 1,000 people — surpassing a level last seen in 1991, shortly before the government of the longtime president, Hosni Mubarak, expanded family planning programs and publicity campaigns to curtail population growth that he blamed for crippling Egypt’s development. Last year, there were 2.6 million births, bringing the population to about 84 million, according to preliminary government figures.

The new government of President Mohamed Morsi has continued financing for family planning programs. But health officials have taken a starkly different view of climbing birthrates, presenting the problem as one of economic management — not the size of the population. Population experts are increasingly alarmed by the government’s silence and its lack of focus on the issue.

“The birthrate is important. It is not right to ignore the population problem,” said Hassan Zaky, a demographer who teaches at Cairo University and the American University in Cairo. “Before, there was a clear policy. Now, we don’t know where we are going. We don’t know the view of the state.”

Government officials blame Egypt’s chaotic transition for the lack of public discourse. But the shift in priorities also reflects a longstanding critique by Islamists of Mr. Mubarak’s population policies. For decades, the Muslim Brotherhood and ultraconservatives chafed at Mr. Mubarak’s almost single-minded focus on contraception and two-child families as a core component of public policy. Mr. Mubarak used family planning — a foreign imposition — to mask the government’s failed strategies, some Islamists said.

“The real problem is with us, as an administration,” said Hamid al-Daly, a representative of the ultraconservative Nour Party and a member of the health committee in Egypt’s upper house of Parliament. “The population in China is over a billion, but there is good management and good utilization of resources. The population is a blessing if we use it well, and a curse if we mismanage the crisis.”

Many public health workers agree that Mr. Mubarak’s approach, which was backed by international aid donors, was never a solution on its own. But they said the current government’s silence on the population threatens only to make the situation worse.

84 million people and still climbing.

I smell a great army of the Rashidun in the making again, and it seems the MuzzBros agree !
Imagine 15-20 years from now, with them swarming the shores of the Dar al Harb to the North !

[Ibrahim]

Well that's Egypt for you, just full of Egyptians.


I wonder how this fits into Spengler's population theories. Presumably he will re-grade Egypt to that nebulous category of pre-modern African nations that don't count in his "birthrate = belief in your culture" model.

[Taboo]

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever

no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors

So how do they do it then? Go to the next town over when they get the urge to burn a church? Take a bus and hack a Copt?

I don't understand your question.

Your first statement seems to disagree with the second just a little bit. I was trying to think of a way in which both can be true.

[Ibrahim]

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever

no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors

So how do they do it then? Go to the next town over when they get the urge to burn a church? Take a bus and hack a Copt?

I don't understand your question.

Your first statement seems to disagree with the second just a little bit. I was trying to think of a way in which both can be true.

There is no contradiction. Such attacks were always illegal, and moreover under traditional cultural norms it was largely unthinkable. It was considered... rude.

Are you asking how, then, did attacks sometimes take place? The same way any law or custom anywhere is violated: some people don't adhere to social and legal norms.

Or if you are referring to contemporary ideological opposition to their existence (e.g. Muslim Brotherhood offshoots systematically attacking Copts) then that is a product of modern ideology. 20th century ideas applied locally.

[monster_gardener]

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever

no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors

So how do they do it then? Go to the next town over when they get the urge to burn a church? Take a bus and hack a Copt?

I don't understand your question.

Your first statement seems to disagree with the second just a little bit. I was trying to think of a way in which both can be true.

There is no contradiction. Such attacks were always illegal, and moreover under traditional cultural norms it was largely unthinkable. It was considered... rude.

Are you asking how, then, did attacks sometimes take place? The same way any law or custom anywhere is violated: some people don't adhere to social and legal norms.

Or if you are referring to contemporary ideological opposition to their existence (e.g. Muslim Brotherhood offshoots systematically attacking Copts) then that is a product of modern ideology. 20th century ideas applied locally.

Thanks for the post, iBS.

There is no contradiction.

Flat out cognitive dissonant falsehood.

under traditional cultural norms it was largely unthinkable.

So now you are saying "largely" unthinkable rather than "unthinkable".

Given the state of the Copts, my guess is that it was and is VERY thinkable..........

It was considered... rude.

So murdering non-Muslims is considered rude............... Is it as rude as leaving the toilet seat up or using the right hand to wipe?

Do one get off with a just fine: recalling that the blood money for Christians killed by Muslims sinks to 25% of that for Muslims......

Or do fellow Muslims merely look askance at a Copt Killer since Fiqh as seen in The Reliance of the Traveller prohibits them from reproaching a fellow Muslim about anything he finds unpleasant or telling the police where he is if they are looking for him for a murder.

[Taboo]

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever

no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors

So how do they do it then? Go to the next town over when they get the urge to burn a church? Take a bus and hack a Copt?

I don't understand your question.

Your first statement seems to disagree with the second just a little bit. I was trying to think of a way in which both can be true.

There is no contradiction. Such attacks were always illegal, and moreover under traditional cultural norms it was largely unthinkable. It was considered... rude.

Are you asking how, then, did attacks sometimes take place? The same way any law or custom anywhere is violated: some people don't adhere to social and legal norms.

Or if you are referring to contemporary ideological opposition to their existence (e.g. Muslim Brotherhood offshoots systematically attacking Copts) then that is a product of modern ideology. 20th century ideas applied locally.

So, contrary to the second claim ("No Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbor") we must conclude that, prior to the 20th century, some Arabs, namely criminals of a religious stripe, would pursue Copts in particular, killing them or harassing them. We must also further conclude that since the 20th century, significant numbers of Arabs (at least some offshoots of the 500,000-1,000,000 dues paying members of the Muslim Brotherhood) hold such views now, whether or not they actively participate in the violence.

[Ibrahim]

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever

no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors

So how do they do it then? Go to the next town over when they get the urge to burn a church? Take a bus and hack a Copt?

I don't understand your question.

Your first statement seems to disagree with the second just a little bit. I was trying to think of a way in which both can be true.

There is no contradiction. Such attacks were always illegal, and moreover under traditional cultural norms it was largely unthinkable. It was considered... rude.

Are you asking how, then, did attacks sometimes take place? The same way any law or custom anywhere is violated: some people don't adhere to social and legal norms.

Or if you are referring to contemporary ideological opposition to their existence (e.g. Muslim Brotherhood offshoots systematically attacking Copts) then that is a product of modern ideology. 20th century ideas applied locally.

So, contrary to the second claim ("No Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbor") we must conclude that, prior to the 20th century, some Arabs, namely criminals of a religious stripe, would pursue Copts in particular, killing them or harassing them. We must also further conclude that since the 20th century, significant numbers of Arabs (at least some offshoots of the 500,000-1,000,000 dues paying members of the Muslim Brotherhood) hold such views now, whether or not they actively participate in the violence.

You seem to be concealing your essential agreement with what I originally stated under a lot of semantic quibbling. Again, you are applying your prejudicial double standard to assign behavior of a small minority to a larger group. You can say that "Egyptian Muslims attack Copts" in the same way that "Catholic Priests rape children." Which is to say that its a small minority of people engaging in an activity that is against the law and generally frowned upon. The modern invention of ideological Islamic extremism in the 20th century creates a group of people who do tacitly support these actions, the way the Catholic hierarchy was concealing and protecting rapists. But it would be idiotic to argue that raping children was an aspect of Catholicism or approved of my the majority of Catholics, just like your attempted argument that attacking Copts is a normative Islamic or Egyptian practice. You ignore their cooperation during the revolution, and their centuries of coexistence, because it doesn't support a supremacist narrative.

I can't speak to your numbers about "dues paying members of the Muslim Brotherhood." You don't say what you base that on, mention any sources, and its not really clear what argument you are trying to make anymore.

[Taboo]

Well, just as the Catholic Church has lost a tremendous amount of respect because of the numerous rape and sexual abuse scandals, so do Muslims suffer in a similar way because of the actions of a minority. If a majority of Egyptian Muslims thought that killing Copts is a religious duty, all the Copts in Egypt would have died or fled by now. But it only takes the murderous actions of a few to precipitate fear and flight. Which is why the assailants need to be vigorously prosecuted, whereas witnesses from the attacks often reported the police were simply standing aside, either in support or simply afraid to intervene.

Whether the fundamentalist jihadis that murder tourists and Copts are as despised by the Muslims as rapist priests are by the Catholics is a matter of survey research. I believe we've seen a few of those, which you dismissed as "just polls" as if that made them irrelevant.

Now, if you don't want people laughing at your contradictory statements, don't make them. Quibbling about semantics only makes you look like a whiner.

[monster_gardener]

Well, just as the Catholic Church has lost a tremendous amount of respect because of the numerous rape and sexual abuse scandals, so do Muslims suffer in a similar way because of the actions of a minority. If a majority of Egyptian Muslims thought that killing Copts is a religious duty, all the Copts in Egypt would have died or fled by now. But it only takes the murderous actions of a few to precipitate fear and flight. Which is why the assailants need to be vigorously prosecuted, whereas witnesses from the attacks often reported the police were simply standing aside, either in support or simply afraid to intervene.

Whether the fundamentalist jihadis that murder tourists and Copts are as despised by the Muslims as rapist priests are by the Catholics is a matter of survey research. I believe we've seen a few of those, which you dismissed as "just polls" as if that made them irrelevant.

Now, if you don't want people laughing at your contradictory statements, don't make them. Quibbling about semantics only makes you look like a whiner.

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Taboo.

But it only takes the murderous actions of a few to precipitate fear and flight.

Bingo!.....

Now, if you don't want people laughing at your contradictory statements, don't make them. Quibbling about semantics only makes you look like a whiner.

Bingo again!

IMO Ibs is an involuntary comedian on the order of Flip Wilson with his "The White Colonial Devil Made Me Do it" excuse for Copt Killers*


5kaiLcwHXB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kaiLcwHXB4


*Never mind that Muslim authorities have enjoined mistreatment and even murder of non-Muslims beginning with Mohammed himself. Thank G_d for Muslims who are lackadaisical about their religion and what Killer Klown clerics like Ghazali think and what the Reliance of the Traveler says even if it too dangerous to openly dismiss Mohammed himself.........

[Ibrahim]

Well, just as the Catholic Church has lost a tremendous amount of respect because of the numerous rape and sexual abuse scandals, so do Muslims suffer in a similar way because of the actions of a minority.

Interesting. Has the Catholic church lost a tremendous amount of respect? Are there not over a billion Catholics, and do people consider them pedophiles as a whole? Seems like an unsubstantiated claim.

Which is why the assailants need to be vigorously prosecuted,

Which is what many Egyptians not only believe but actively protest on behalf of, which is of little interest to you sitting at home and ranting about your superiority to Egyptians as a whole.

Whether the fundamentalist jihadis that murder tourists and Copts are as despised by the Muslims as rapist priests are by the Catholics is a matter of survey research. I believe we've seen a few of those, which you dismissed as "just polls" as if that made them irrelevant.

But you didn't post any about this issue. You posted those with responses to general questions, and then assumed the answer to this question, which is typical of your methods. You also imply that because this is an ongoing problem we can assume tacit approval. Just as, for example, we can approve of the tacit acceptance of Catholic coverups or the systematic murder of civilians by Western forces, or whatever other cause a person might advocate. But you will only apply this standard to this issue.

Now, if you don't want people laughing at your contradictory statements, don't make them. Quibbling about semantics only makes you look like a whiner.

This would be more evidence of your repeated whining that you post facts not insults? In any case it is false, I made no contradictory statements.

[monster_gardener]

Well, just as the Catholic Church has lost a tremendous amount of respect because of the numerous rape and sexual abuse scandals, so do Muslims suffer in a similar way because of the actions of a minority.

Interesting. Has the Catholic church lost a tremendous amount of respect? Are there not over a billion Catholics, and do people consider them pedophiles as a whole? Seems like an unsubstantiated claim.

Which is why the assailants need to be vigorously prosecuted,

Which is what many Egyptians not only believe but actively protest on behalf of, which is of little interest to you sitting at home and ranting about your superiority to Egyptians as a whole.

Whether the fundamentalist jihadis that murder tourists and Copts are as despised by the Muslims as rapist priests are by the Catholics is a matter of survey research. I believe we've seen a few of those, which you dismissed as "just polls" as if that made them irrelevant.

But you didn't post any about this issue. You posted those with responses to general questions, and then assumed the answer to this question, which is typical of your methods. You also imply that because this is an ongoing problem we can assume tacit approval. Just as, for example, we can approve of the tacit acceptance of Catholic coverups or the systematic murder of civilians by Western forces, or whatever other cause a person might advocate. But you will only apply this standard to this issue.

Now, if you don't want people laughing at your contradictory statements, don't make them. Quibbling about semantics only makes you look like a whiner.

This would be more evidence of your repeated whining that you post facts not insults? In any case it is false, I made no contradictory statements.

Thank You very MUCH for your post, Ibrahim.

Harassment of Copts has been an ongoing problem in Egypt forever,

so that no Arab Muslim would think to harass or kill his Coptic neighbors. This was the norm for over a thousand years.

I made no contradictory statements.

Invincible Cognitive Dissonance!

Except there may be no dissonance ..........

So.......

Double Your Pleasure
Double Your Fun
With Double Bad, Double Think Gum!

Gummed up thought processes guaranteed!

Doublethink is the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts.[1] It is related to, but differs from, hypocrisy and neutrality. Somewhat related is cognitive dissonance, where the two beliefs cause conflict in one's mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

[Ibrahim]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-egypti ... i-protest/

Top Egyptian cleric sanctions anti-Morsi protest
Sheik Ahmed el-Tayeb of the al-Azhar Mosque grants religious approval for peaceful demonstration

CAIRO (AP) — Egypt’s top Muslim cleric declared Wednesday that peaceful protests against the president are permitted, dismissing declarations by Islamist hard-liners that those behind protests planned for June 30 are heretics.

Sheik Ahmed el-Tayeb, the grand imam of the Al-Azhar mosque, said in a statement that “peaceful opposition to the legitimate leader is religiously permissible and accepted.”

He said the view expressed by some backers of Islamist President Mohammed Morsi that those who rebel against a “legitimate” leader are “kuffar,” or non-believers, and “hypocrites” — and thus punishable by death — is a “deviant” view.

Cairo’s Al-Azhar is the Sunni Muslim world’s foremost seat of learning. The views of its imam are taken seriously and widely interpreted to be the moderate voice of Islam.

Morsi’s opponents are planning mass protests on June 30 calling on him to step down a year after he narrowly won the presidency in a run-off against the last prime minister to serve under his ousted predecessor Hosni Mubarak.

Morsi has said that while he has nothing but respect for the “honorable” protesters, he accused Mubarak loyalists of being behind the planned demonstrations and vowed to deal with them decisively.

El-Tayeb’s statement, posted on Al-Azhar’s official website, came one day after he and the patriarch of Egypt’s Coptic Christians, Pope Tawadros II, met Morsi. The timing of the meeting suggested that Morsi wanted the public backing of the two religious leaders ahead of the June 30 protests. An official statement issued by Morsi’s office appeared to back this interpretation.

Morsi, it said, “expressed his appreciation … to how they can contribute to bolstering national unity and maintaining the nation’s supreme interests, along with safeguarding the nation’s security and stability.” The meeting also dealt with “current conditions and challenges facing the nation,” the statement said.

Morsi supporters earlier this year stormed el-Tayeb’s office to protest an outbreak of food poisoning in a dormitory belonging to Al-Azhar University. The rare protest led to speculations that Morsi’s Muslim Brotherhood wanted to remove el-Tayeb and replace him with a loyal cleric. The Brotherhood denied that.

Relations between Tawadros and Morsi have not been smooth. The pope accused Morsi of doing nothing when his patriarchal seat, the Cathedral of St. Mark in Cairo, came under attack by rocks and firebombs in April, while security forces looked on.

Wednesday’s statement by el-Tayeb pointed to the gap between the cleric and Morsi’s allies at a time when much of the country is seething with anger and frustration over the perceived failure of the Egyptian leader to effectively tackle any of the country’s pressing problems, including surging crime, high unemployment, electricity outages, fuel shortages and rising prices.

“Al-Azhar … has found itself in a position where it had to comment on what is published of comments and fatwas (religious edicts) attributed to random arrivals in the field of edicts and jurisprudence,” said the statement, indicating ridicule of Morsi backers who issued fatwas declaring that the organizers of the June 30 protesters are infidels who should be killed.

“While calling for conciliation and warning against sedition and violence, the honorable Al-Azhar also warns against declaring opponents non-believers and questioning their faith,” the statement said.

[Ibrahim]

http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&Id=433440

Egyptian grand mufti condemns Shia killings as a worse sin in Islam than destruction of sacred Kaaba in Mecca
The senior Sunni cleric, Shawqi Allam, stressed that bloodshed is highly prohibited in Islam and is deemed more serious a sin than the demolition of the Kaaba, the Muslims' sacred building located in Mecca.
(Ahlul Bayt News Agency) - Egypt's Grand Mufti Shawqi Allam strongly condemned the mob killing of four Shia Muslims in a Giza village on Sunday, an incident which has heighten fears of worsening sectarian frictions in Egypt.

Four Egyptian Shias were killed in a mob attack in the village of Zawyat Abu Musalam in Giza on Sunday.

An anti-Shia crowd gathered outside the house where a group of Shia Muslims were celebrating birth anniversary of twelfth Shiite Imam. The violence, which included the murder of four Shia residents and the injuring of several others, was captured on video.

"Islam does not recognise such [violent] practices which contradict human nature," Allam said on Monday.

The senior Sunni cleric stressed that bloodshed is highly prohibited in Islam and is deemed more serious a sin than the demolition of the Kaaba, the Muslims' sacred building located in Mecca.

One of those killed was a prominent Shia leader, Hassan Shehata.

Allam went on to explain that Islam prohibits the mutilation of the dead body. "Islam mandates treating the body as a living human, prohibiting beating and dragging of corpses."

Allam warned against mounting sectarian friction in Egypt that has "sucked the country into a vortex of violence."

[monster_gardener]

http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&Id=433440

Egyptian grand mufti condemns Shia killings as a worse sin in Islam than destruction of sacred Kaaba in Mecca
The senior Sunni cleric, Shawqi Allam, stressed that bloodshed is highly prohibited in Islam and is deemed more serious a sin than the demolition of the Kaaba, the Muslims' sacred building located in Mecca.
(Ahlul Bayt News Agency) - Egypt's Grand Mufti Shawqi Allam strongly condemned the mob killing of four Shia Muslims in a Giza village on Sunday, an incident which has heighten fears of worsening sectarian frictions in Egypt.

Four Egyptian Shias were killed in a mob attack in the village of Zawyat Abu Musalam in Giza on Sunday.

An anti-Shia crowd gathered outside the house where a group of Shia Muslims were celebrating birth anniversary of twelfth Shiite Imam. The violence, which included the murder of four Shia residents and the injuring of several others, was captured on video.

"Islam does not recognise such [violent] practices which contradict human nature," Allam said on Monday.

The senior Sunni cleric stressed that bloodshed is highly prohibited in Islam and is deemed more serious a sin than the demolition of the Kaaba, the Muslims' sacred building located in Mecca.

One of those killed was a prominent Shia leader, Hassan Shehata.

Allam went on to explain that Islam prohibits the mutilation of the dead body. "Islam mandates treating the body as a living human, prohibiting beating and dragging of corpses."

Allam warned against mounting sectarian friction in Egypt that has "sucked the country into a vortex of violence."

Thank you very much for your post, Ibrahim.

Sounds like a wise attempt to head off revenge attacks........

But rather doubt that it will work without some serious prosecution of the perps.....

Multiple years at least.....

Wonder what are the odds that the Shia do/don't retaliate?

[Heracleum Persicum]

.



Nasserist comeback

.

Rather than an outpouring of anti-Islamist rage, protesters in Cairo voiced the pan-Arab, nationalist, socialist and xenophobic slogans – marked by anti-US sentiment - with which Gemal Abdel Nasser enthused the Arab world half a century ago. The Muslim Brotherhood rule in Egypt, thrown up by the Arab Revolt, may find itself challenged by a neo-Arab nationalistic uprising.

.

Morsi, the "New Muslim-Brotherhood" a CIA front to f*ck Arabs .. thanks G_D Egyptians waking up


Mohamed ElBaradei the one all hopes pined on





.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.



‘Morsi tries to ram Sharia constitution down Egyptian people's throats’




Morsi working for CIA .. he in the same boat with those beheading that poor Syrian Bishop and those cannibals


Mohamed ElBaradei , where are you, Egypt needs you now .. Yes, true, CIA does not want Mohamed ElBaradei , but, no other option





.

[Ibrahim]

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... NO20130701

Egypt army gives Mursi 48 hours to share power
By Asma Alsharif and Tom Perry

CAIRO (Reuters) - Egypt's powerful armed forces gave Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum on Monday to share power, urging the nation's feuding politicians to agree on an inclusive roadmap for the country's future within 48 hours.

A dramatic military statement broadcast on state television declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.

"If the demands of the people are not realized within the defined period, it will be incumbent upon (the armed forces) ... to announce a road map for the future," said the statement by chief-of-staff General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi.

It was followed by patriotic music.

The people had expressed their will with unprecedented clarity in the mass demonstrations and wasting more time would only increase the danger of division and strife, he said.

The army said it would oversee the implementation of the roadmap it sought "with the participation of all factions and national parties, including young people", but it would not get directly involved in politics or government.

Anti-Mursi demonstrators outside the presidential palace cheered the army statement, and the main opposition National Salvation Front, which has demanded a national unity government for months, applauded the military's move.

Hard to say which is the right path here. Plenty of legitimate criticisms of Morsi, but he did win an election. Not particularly thrilled with the army declaring which elections are and aren't valid. Another election would probably be the best outcome. What else is there?

[monster_gardener]

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... NO20130701

Egypt army gives Mursi 48 hours to share power
By Asma Alsharif and Tom Perry

CAIRO (Reuters) - Egypt's powerful armed forces gave Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum on Monday to share power, urging the nation's feuding politicians to agree on an inclusive roadmap for the country's future within 48 hours.

A dramatic military statement broadcast on state television declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.

"If the demands of the people are not realized within the defined period, it will be incumbent upon (the armed forces) ... to announce a road map for the future," said the statement by chief-of-staff General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi.

It was followed by patriotic music.

The people had expressed their will with unprecedented clarity in the mass demonstrations and wasting more time would only increase the danger of division and strife, he said.

The army said it would oversee the implementation of the roadmap it sought "with the participation of all factions and national parties, including young people", but it would not get directly involved in politics or government.

Anti-Mursi demonstrators outside the presidential palace cheered the army statement, and the main opposition National Salvation Front, which has demanded a national unity government for months, applauded the military's move.

Hard to say which is the right path here. Plenty of legitimate criticisms of Morsi, but he did win an election. Not particularly thrilled with the army declaring which elections are and aren't valid. Another election would probably be the best outcome. What else is there?

Thanks for your post, Ibrahim.

What else is there?

Civil war..........

If Morsi and his Mobot Brothers win, I would suggest emigration for Copts and seculars.......

[Endovelico]

“Egypt and the whole world witnessed yesterday demonstrations by the great people of Egypt expressing their opinion in an unprecedented, peaceful and civilized way.

Everyone saw the movement of the Egyptian people and heard their voices with the greatest respect and concern. It is necessary that the people receive a reply to their movement and the call from every party with any responsibility in the dangerous circumstances surrounding the nation.

As a main party in the considerations of the future and based on their patriotic and historic responsibilities to protect security and stability, the Armed Forces state the following:

— The Armed Forces will not be a party in the circles of politics or governance and are not willing to step out of the role defined for them by the basic ideals of democracy based on the will of the people.

— The national security of the state is exposed to extreme danger by the developments the nation is witnessing, and this places a responsibility on us, each according to his position, to act as is proper to avert these dangers. The armed forces sensed early on the dangers of the current situation and the demands the great people have at this time. Therefore, it previously set a deadline of a week for all political forces in the country to come to a consensus and get out of this crisis. However, the week has passed without any sign of an initiative. This is what led to the people coming out with determination and resolve, in their full freedom, in this glorious way, which inspired surprise, respect and attention at the domestic, regional and international levels.

— Wasting more time will only bring more division and conflict, which we have warned about and continue to warn about. The noble people have suffered and have found no one to treat them with kindness or sympathize with them. That puts a moral and psychological burden on the armed forces, which find it obligatory that everyone drop everything and embrace these proud people, which have shown they are ready to do the impossible if only they feels there is loyalty and dedication to them.

— The Armed Forces repeat their call for the people’s demands to be met and give everyone 48 hours as a last chance to shoulder the burden of the historic moment that is happening in the nation, which will not forgive or tolerate any party that is lax in shouldering its responsibility.

— The Armed Forces put everyone on notice that if the demands of the people are not realized in the given time period, it will be obliged by its patriotic and historic responsibilities and by its respect for the demands of the great Egyptian people to announce a road map for the future and the steps for overseeing its implementation, with participation of all patriotic and sincere parties and movements — including the youth, who set off the glorious revolution and continue to do so — without excluding anyone.

A salute of appreciation and pride to the sincere and loyal men of the Armed Forces, who have always borne and will continue to bear their patriotic responsibilities toward the great people of Egypt with determination, decisiveness and pride.

God save Egypt and its proud, great people.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text- ... ultimatum/

Mursi and the religious obsessed are about to disappear from the Egyptian political scene. Next will be Erdogan and the Turkish religious obsessed. Insha'Allah...or, as we say in Portugal, Oxalá!...

[Mr. Perfect]

Hard to say which is the right path here. Plenty of legitimate criticisms of Morsi, but he did win an election. Not particularly thrilled with the army declaring which elections are and aren't valid. Another election would probably be the best outcome. What else is there?

Nothing.

More Arab Spring please.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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How Did the U.S. Lose the Egyptian People ?

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How exactly did the U.S. come to be seen by Egyptian secularists and liberals as the handmaiden of a cultish fundamentalist political party whose motto includes this heartening sentiment: “Jihad is our way, and dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope” ?

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America "insulted" Egyptian people's intelligence .. thinking they idiots .. to force this POS Wahhabi Islamist down Egyptian people's throat, the so called "New Muslim Brotherhood" sh*t in bed with Zionist next door


Egyptian people want a real patriot and not another CIA crony


Assad , goooooooooooooooooo



Good News

Egypt's military has drawn up a plan to suspend the Islamist-backed constitution, dissolve the Islamist-dominated legislature and set up an interim administration headed by the country's chief justice if President Mohammed Morsi fails to reach a solution with his opponents by the end of a Wednesday deadline, the state news agency reported.

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