The Essence of the Cult of Abraham

[Marcus]

This thread lasted longer than I thought without turning into an uppity atheist vs. an overly-sensitive believer... but Godwin's Second Correlary could not be denied forever.

It's not about "uppity atheist vs. overly-sensitive believer" because atheists, uppity or otherwise, are "believers" too . .

[Parodite]

The trick will be keeping such sharing polite . .

True. But sometimes being polite is like an insult.

[Demon of Undoing]

Okay. Gear shift.

For Christianity, two concrete events had to happen in real world, measurable ways. Not as a metaphor, not as a thought experiment, but an actual, by- God miraculous event. One is a physical resurrection, but I'm not on that, in spite of Easter.

I'm talking about Passover. Is anybody aware of any archeological evidence for Jews leaving Egypt or arriving in the Promised Land? I'm not aware of any. I wondered if someone else might be.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Okay. Gear shift.

For Christianity, two concrete events had to happen in real world, measurable ways. Not as a metaphor, not as a thought experiment, but an actual, by- God miraculous event. One is a physical resurrection, but I'm not on that, in spite of Easter.

I'm talking about Passover. Is anybody aware of any archeological evidence for Jews leaving Egypt or arriving in the Promised Land? I'm not aware of any. I wondered if someone else might be.

Currently, I think the most likely interpretation of the evidence is that the exodus of the Israelites only involved a small portion of those people, perhaps the Levites and the Judahites (and possibly only a small portion of those tribes), and that the promised land was a land already inhabited by many Hebrews. The two groups, however, had grown apart culturally, and this may have formed the basis of the later conflicts between the northern, pre-existing, tribes, and the southern tribes who had come from Egypt and brought some of Egypt along with them.

The Amarna letters from Akhenaten's time mention the "Habiru" raiding cities in northern Palestine, and that was from about 1400 BC on... the letters also mention Joshua ("Yahuya") as a leader of those northern raids. There is much speculation that Joshua, far from being Moses' successor, was not actually associated with him at all. In fact, Joshua may have been a leader of the existing Hebrews that lived in Palestine when Moses showed up leading the group of Hebrews out of Egypt to settle in the south.

Furthermore, there is much circumstantial theological evidence that Moses' version of Hebrew monotheism was inspired by the monotheistic revolution of the pharaoh Akhenaten (which didn't last in Egypt). The sudden incursion of such a similar monotheism into Palestine at the time is no proof, but a piece of evidence that after Akhenaten's death, when his name and monotheistic religion were being scrubbed off of every wall in Egypt, a group of inspired adherents fled the persecution to their ancestral home, taking Akhenaten's idea and running with it. (I don't go so far as Freud, by the way, to say the Moses was some kind of priest in Akhenaten's court... it's not necessary).

After the destruction of the northern kingdom by the Assyrians, the remaining southern kingdom was free to meld the two separate histories into a neat national narrative, absorbing heroes such as Joshua into the common story. The northern peoples had lived among the other inhabitants of Palestine for generations, and probably did not initially share in Moses monotheistic religion at all. The frequent lapses into polytheism by the Moses-led Hebrews makes more sense if the much larger mass of their own blood ancestors, and not just enemy foreigners, were the ones following those cults.

TJ Meek, J.D. Ebert, and some others have written very well on the topic. The first volume of Will Durant's History of Civilization has some good general info as well, if you don't want to get into reading academic dissertations on pottery shards.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Okay. Gear shift.

For Christianity, two concrete events had to happen in real world, measurable ways. Not as a metaphor, not as a thought experiment, but an actual, by- God miraculous event. One is a physical resurrection, but I'm not on that, in spite of Easter.

I'm talking about Passover. Is anybody aware of any archeological evidence for Jews leaving Egypt or arriving in the Promised Land? I'm not aware of any. I wondered if someone else might be.

There is evidence, but I wouldn't call it conclusive. http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm

[Demon of Undoing]

To clarify: not looking for early evidence of Jews or Israel. I know that's a shaky maybe.

I mean Passover. Nile to blood, frog rain, but especially evidence of any number of a) firstborn dying and b) about a quarter of the labor workforce up and moving ( they wouldn't have really been owned slaves, but whatever) and c) the destruction of an entire Egyptian army in one night.

I don't see how those sorts of things could be covered up or expunged from the record. You could never prove a Mt Sinai, so won't ask. That would actually be the make or break OT moment, but it's an empty trail. But you don't get to that mountaintop without the Passover story, or if you do, the entire context and character of YHWH changes.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

To clarify: not looking for early evidence of Jews or Israel. I know that's a shaky maybe.

I mean Passover. Nile to blood, frog rain, but especially evidence of any number of a) firstborn dying and b) about a quarter of the labor workforce up and moving ( they wouldn't have really been owned slaves, but whatever) and c) the destruction of an entire Egyptian army in one night.

I don't see how those sorts of things could be covered up or expunged from the record. You could never prove a Mt Sinai, so won't ask. That would actually be the make or break OT moment, but it's an empty trail. But you don't get to that mountaintop without the Passover story, or if you do, the entire context and character of YHWH changes.

Oh, Passover. Yeah, there is an ancient book that recounts the entire episode.

[Demon of Undoing]

This is that papyrus ( thanks for the steer), but the claim looks a bit shaky. Maybe.

Synchronizing the time frame is difficult; so is ascertaining that it is in fact reportage and not form literature.

Hmmm.

[Parodite]

Maybe aside what DofU is asking for, but my take on it (included on what is the essence of the cult of Abraham) is that not that facts matter first and foremost, but rather how you weave a meaningful story from inconclusive facts (always inconclusive as they are and will be...) while living your reality of today. This is what those people in the past did; don't see why we wouldn't/shouldn't do the same. Simple facts in present or past; conclusive, inconclusive, interpreted, re-interpreted, miraculous and mundain... are no living things. They are just shadows of the present, mystrious and living now. That is, in the Abrahamic terminology, JHWH; the unnameable Is who Is and will Be.

[Hoosiernorm]

This is that papyrus ( thanks for the steer), but the claim looks a bit shaky. Maybe.

Synchronizing the time frame is difficult; so is ascertaining that it is in fact reportage and not form literature.

Hmmm.

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/ipuwer.htm

Yes and they don't rhyme

[Demon of Undoing]

Maybe aside what DofU is asking for, but my take on it (included on what is the essence of the cult of Abraham) is that not that facts matter first and foremost, but rather how you weave a meaningful story from inconclusive facts (always inconclusive as they are and will be...) while living your reality of today. This is what those people in the past did; don't see why we wouldn't/shouldn't do the same. Simple facts in present or past; conclusive, inconclusive, interpreted, re-interpreted, miraculous and mundain... are no living things. They are just shadows of the present, mystrious and living now. That is, in the Abrahamic terminology, JHWH; the unnameable Is who Is and will Be.

I have seen how a narrative whole can have it's own value independent of fact. But this really is one of the two things of the faith that have to have a factual, by-God happening, in the real world. At some point ( actually these two mentioned) there had to be an intrusion by God into concrete human history. If not, then no matter how real to it's adherents, its not based on anything. Where I come from, we call that a fantasy.

If Passover/ Exodus happened, there would be, I think, more than possible maybe mentions in stylistic literature.

[Enki]

It has always seemed to me that historicity is beside the point. All of the historical records from that time are suspect. All historical records from any time are suspect. People craft narratives, it's what they do.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Okay. Gear shift.

For Christianity, two concrete events had to happen in real world, measurable ways. Not as a metaphor, not as a thought experiment, but an actual, by- God miraculous event. One is a physical resurrection, but I'm not on that, in spite of Easter.

I'm talking about Passover. Is anybody aware of any archeological evidence for Jews leaving Egypt or arriving in the Promised Land? I'm not aware of any. I wondered if someone else might be.

I'm curious as to why you think Passover, as a literal historical event, is so important for Christianity.

[Hoosiernorm]

Maybe aside what DofU is asking for, but my take on it (included on what is the essence of the cult of Abraham) is that not that facts matter first and foremost, but rather how you weave a meaningful story from inconclusive facts (always inconclusive as they are and will be...) while living your reality of today. This is what those people in the past did; don't see why we wouldn't/shouldn't do the same. Simple facts in present or past; conclusive, inconclusive, interpreted, re-interpreted, miraculous and mundain... are no living things. They are just shadows of the present, mystrious and living now. That is, in the Abrahamic terminology, JHWH; the unnameable Is who Is and will Be.

I have seen how a narrative whole can have it's own value independent of fact. But this really is one of the two things of the faith that have to have a factual, by-God happening, in the real world. At some point ( actually these two mentioned) there had to be an intrusion by God into concrete human history. If not, then no matter how real to it's adherents, its not based on anything. Where I come from, we call that a fantasy.

If Passover/ Exodus happened, there would be, I think, more than possible maybe mentions in stylistic literature.

Of all of the things the OT tells us that there is archaeological proofs to correspond with, why not simply accept the OT as factual? Before A. H. Sayce the only place you could have known about the Hittites was from the record of them in the OT. The Jews knew this to be true because the OT is a book of record.

[Demon of Undoing]

Okay. Gear shift.

For Christianity, two concrete events had to happen in real world, measurable ways. Not as a metaphor, not as a thought experiment, but an actual, by- God miraculous event. One is a physical resurrection, but I'm not on that, in spite of Easter.

I'm talking about Passover. Is anybody aware of any archeological evidence for Jews leaving Egypt or arriving in the Promised Land? I'm not aware of any. I wondered if someone else might be.

I'm curious as to why you think Passover, as a literal historical event, is so important for Christianity.

Without Passover, YHWH is just a standard creation myth for a conglomeration of people that left Egypt over centuries. Without Passover, the entire salvation narrative which originated is irrelevant to anything that occurred after. Neither sacrifice nor atonement mean anything to a God simply rooted in tribal superiority as opposed to justice, redemption and salvation.

Without a resurrection, it's not Christianity. Without Passover, it's not even a religion. It is simply another cultural expression. Only the otherworldly and transcendental theme of redemption validates the whole sordid lot.

[Demon of Undoing]

Maybe aside what DofU is asking for, but my take on it (included on what is the essence of the cult of Abraham) is that not that facts matter first and foremost, but rather how you weave a meaningful story from inconclusive facts (always inconclusive as they are and will be...) while living your reality of today. This is what those people in the past did; don't see why we wouldn't/shouldn't do the same. Simple facts in present or past; conclusive, inconclusive, interpreted, re-interpreted, miraculous and mundain... are no living things. They are just shadows of the present, mystrious and living now. That is, in the Abrahamic terminology, JHWH; the unnameable Is who Is and will Be.

I have seen how a narrative whole can have it's own value independent of fact. But this really is one of the two things of the faith that have to have a factual, by-God happening, in the real world. At some point ( actually these two mentioned) there had to be an intrusion by God into concrete human history. If not, then no matter how real to it's adherents, its not based on anything. Where I come from, we call that a fantasy.

If Passover/ Exodus happened, there would be, I think, more than possible maybe mentions in stylistic literature.

Of all of the things the OT tells us that there is archaeological proofs to correspond with, why not simply accept the OT as factual? Before A. H. Sayce the only place you could have known about the Hittites was from the record of them in the OT. The Jews knew this to be true because the OT is a book of record.

I have no problem building a case where the initial supposition is that the OT is true. But it can not dodge the flip side; ie that if true, it has to have some sort of real basis to it. If something is true, then barring extraordinary efforts to manipulate reality, some corroborrating evidence of the claim must exist.

Again, if a quarter of the labor force left while the Nile was in flood and fiery hailstones fell from the sky while the cattle were killed and the firstborn in all the land died within the space of a few weeks, just before a Pharoh and his army were destroyed in a single night, I should think it would draw comment from a literate, cosmopolitain and multicultural power.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Okay. Gear shift.

For Christianity, two concrete events had to happen in real world, measurable ways. Not as a metaphor, not as a thought experiment, but an actual, by- God miraculous event. One is a physical resurrection, but I'm not on that, in spite of Easter.

I'm talking about Passover. Is anybody aware of any archeological evidence for Jews leaving Egypt or arriving in the Promised Land? I'm not aware of any. I wondered if someone else might be.

I'm curious as to why you think Passover, as a literal historical event, is so important for Christianity.

Without Passover, YHWH is just a standard creation myth for a conglomeration of people that left Egypt over centuries. Without Passover, the entire salvation narrative which originated is irrelevant to anything that occurred after. Neither sacrifice nor atonement mean anything to a God simply rooted in tribal superiority as opposed to justice, redemption and salvation.

Without a resurrection, it's not Christianity. Without Passover, it's not even a religion. It is simply another cultural expression. Only the otherworldly and transcendental theme of redemption validates the whole sordid lot.

I don't think I'm quite following. Certainly the historicity of the event is important for the 6,000-year-old universe, "dinosaurs and man walked the earth together", evangelical literalists, but they are the great minority today and throughout history. I don't think it literally happened, and I do think the Hebrew God was a typical tribal war god. And to the extent that religion is about knowing the right facts about reified ancient deities, I guess that kills it for me; but to interpret myths literally is to miss the point. Whether or not the events happened does not diminish the achievement of the Hebrews, which was to form an enduring and coherent world image that has provided structure and inspiration for a good part of mankind for a few thousand years. I know I'm in the minority, but I'm one of those who counts facts as trifles. The past that happened and the past that didn't... there isn't much difference. Memory is far more important, and whichever structuring narrative is remembered has significance (though it may be entirely false), while the unremembered historical facts are utterly without meaning or value.

[Demon of Undoing]

Either Christianity is literally true, or I have no time for it. As a way of liberation, it's psychotic without there being an actual God that actually wants you to do thus and so, for specific reasons.

[Enki]

Without Passover, YHWH is just a standard creation myth for a conglomeration of people that left Egypt over centuries. Without Passover, the entire salvation narrative which originated is irrelevant to anything that occurred after. Neither sacrifice nor atonement mean anything to a God simply rooted in tribal superiority as opposed to justice, redemption and salvation.

Actually passover does quite the opposite of what you describe. It postulates that God chose one tribe over another. It is quite specifically a religion rooted in tribalism, not in Justice.

Without a resurrection, it's not Christianity. Without Passover, it's not even a religion. It is simply another cultural expression. Only the otherworldly and transcendental theme of redemption validates the whole sordid lot.

Passover is just another in a long line of myths by a people who won a war and creating a scenario where God favored them by the self-evident virtue of having won. They go on to slaughter everyone in the new land they come to, which is of course God's will. Then when they fail to slaughter all of those people, they see all of the problems that stem later from conflict with those same tribes they attempted to exterminate as evidence that God was displeased with them for not exterminating those people.

Has nothing at all to do with justice and everything to do with tribal superiority.

Passover quite specifically is the place in the bible that repudiates everything you just described, it's base tribalism at its most parochial.

[Demon of Undoing]

God didn't plague Egypt until they would not have mercy. It was mercy, in however limited a space it could exist, that stood out and was sought. In that, it establishes a narrative of redemption, first for Israel, then the world. Without favoring Israel ( and often making an example of them), the Messiah could never come in the way he (apparently ) had to come.

Your favorite tribal diety smiting somebody that wasn't like you was everyday dirt. A God pleading for mercy and freedom, and establishing a universal framework that values that, however limited; now that's something.

[Enki]

God didn't plague Egypt until they would not have mercy. It was mercy, in however limited a space it could exist, that stood out and was sought. In that, it establishes a narrative of redemption, first for Israel, then the world. Without favoring Israel ( and often making an example of them), the Messiah could never come in the way he (apparently ) had to come.

Your favorite tribal diety smiting somebody that wasn't like you was everyday dirt. A God pleading for mercy and freedom, and establishing a universal framework that values that, however limited; now that's something.

The rub is that God could have created a system of universal justice in which every single person understood universal justice. All of this other stuff is just identity politics at the end of it. It amounts to little more than, "It happened the way it happened. It could not have happened any other way, because if it could happen any other way then it would have."

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Either Christianity is literally true, or I have no time for it. As a way of liberation, it's psychotic without there being an actual God that actually wants you to do thus and so, for specific reasons.

Haha! Pitiful humans... always begging for certainty!

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Without Passover, YHWH is just a standard creation myth for a conglomeration of people that left Egypt over centuries. Without Passover, the entire salvation narrative which originated is irrelevant to anything that occurred after. Neither sacrifice nor atonement mean anything to a God simply rooted in tribal superiority as opposed to justice, redemption and salvation.

Actually passover does quite the opposite of what you describe. It postulates that God chose one tribe over another. It is quite specifically a religion rooted in tribalism, not in Justice.

Without a resurrection, it's not Christianity. Without Passover, it's not even a religion. It is simply another cultural expression. Only the otherworldly and transcendental theme of redemption validates the whole sordid lot.

Passover is just another in a long line of myths by a people who won a war and creating a scenario where God favored them by the self-evident virtue of having won. They go on to slaughter everyone in the new land they come to, which is of course God's will. Then when they fail to slaughter all of those people, they see all of the problems that stem later from conflict with those same tribes they attempted to exterminate as evidence that God was displeased with them for not exterminating those people.

Has nothing at all to do with justice and everything to do with tribal superiority.

Passover quite specifically is the place in the bible that repudiates everything you just described, it's base tribalism at its most parochial.

Base tribalism at its most "human", I would say instead. Anything we have that transcends tribalism, that transcends blood and soil, we have because of religion. Even our post-everything multiculti movement today would not exist without Christian roots.

[Enki]

Christianity is an elaborate metaphor. Most people don't get it, because they cannot comprehend the idea that the metaphor was explained through the medium of flesh and blood.

The Universe is a vast information system driven by will.

That's the central message of Christianity.

If the Father is the creator of the PC, then Jesus is Binary Code.

Juggernaut Nihilism The entirety of Civilization is a transformative process with a beginning and an end. The religious process is a method of bringing about universality. When all of humanity is one united state of being, that is transcendence.

You will be assimilated.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Juggernaut Nihilism The entirety of Civilization is a transformative process with a beginning and an end. The religious process is a method of bringing about universality. When all of humanity is one united state of being, that is transcendence.

You will be assimilated.

If you aren't familiar with Teilhard de Chardin, you should be!