True nuff. Not only that, but Nice people against mean, awful, rotten SOB's.Nonc Hilaire wrote:Right and left are meaningless. Now it is localist vs. globalist.
The Brexit is going to put British firms, which rely heavily on exports to the Eurozone, at a disadvantage. Britain and Germany are Europe's most dynamic economies, aided greatly by the reduced friction in the flow of capital and labor across borders. Increasing barriers, increasing economic friction, is incredibly wasteful. Here's what will happen post-Brexit: the British will end up negotiating a series of trade and immigration treaties that will effectively be almost identical to what presently exists, but will waste time and money doing so. Net outcome: slightly negative.Mr. Perfect wrote:In other words you couldn't come up with a single point of rebuttal.Zack Morris wrote:I work with a few Brits. They are all firmly in the Remain camp. They're also all certifiably brilliant people and we're paying bags full of cash to retain them (one of them spends most of his time working from an idyllic location in continental Europe, much to the chagrin of US-based management). Funny how no matter where you go in the world, the smart people are never one of mind with US wingnuts.
This started in the 15th century if not earlier. Globalism is inevitable. Western nations no longer have credible ethnic identities and someday, neither will many developing countries and would-be alternative "poles". There's really nothing wrong with that. Civilized existence and local ethnic tribalism are mutually incompatible.Nonc Hilaire wrote:Right and left are meaningless. Now it is localist vs. globalist.
But why would that stop? After a Brexit Britain can always choose to be inward investment friendly and have a flexible labour market.Torchwood wrote:The reasons to remain are overwhelming:
Even the Leave camp admit that economically "there will be a bump in the road" . The IMF is clearer - a recession. Britain does well for inward investment because it has a business friendly flexible labour market inside the EU. Leave and that stops.
Norway and Switzerland are doing very well, so it doesn't seem not having a vote is detrimental.The main arguments pushed by leave are sovereignty and reduced immigration, and "we did not sign up to a federal Europe"
The UK has more sovereignty inside the EU than out of it. Outside , because it is 50% of our trade, we would have to abide by EU regulations without a say in them. like Norway and Switzerland. Anyway sharing "sovereignty" in international organisations is the norm in the modern world ( NATO, WTO, etc.etc)
Less inflow of cheap labor may be good for UK citizens? The presence of Eastern European workers in construction for instance pushes down the price local construction workers can ask for a project. Consumers may then pay more for a house they want to be built, but at least the money stays in the UK economy. Romanians and Poles take a considerable amount of the money they make out of the country back to their families in the homeland.Any deal with the EU after Brexit would almost certainly include free labour movement . The points based system suggested by Leave would lead to more immigration, and Commonwealth preference = more Muslims, I prefer Poles and Romanians, thank you. Turkey will never be allowed to join.
The UK leaving the EU would help others do the same and eventually have the Euro being removed from the neck of poor EU countries in the south and east.More federalism is dead, with opposition from other states, not just the UK. The fiasco that is the Euro killed any enthusiasm for it. Thank goodness we are out of that.
The Remain camp uses this murder to their advantage.. a pity indeed. Create guilt by association when the arguments to win fail.The Leave campaign is emotional and nasty. The murder of MP Jo Cox by a mentally ill Far Right fanatic cannot be directly blamed on them, but the febrile atmosphere does not help.
The aggregated annual value of Romanian remittances is around USD 3.4 billion, according to the World Bank. Most of the money come from Italy, Spain and Germany. UK remittances are estimated at USD 100 million per year.Parodite wrote:Romanians and Poles take a considerable amount of the money they make out of the country back to their families in the homeland.
For a consistent and principled argument for Brexit, look up Ambrose Evans-PritchardTorchwood wrote:(Arguments for Bremain)
And more at the link...With sadness and tortured by doubts, I will cast my vote as an ordinary citizen for withdrawal from the European Union.
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
Stripped of distractions, it comes down to an elemental choice: whether to restore the full self-government of this nation, or to continue living under a higher supranational regime, ruled by a European Council that we do not elect in any meaningful sense, and that the British people can never remove, even when it persists in error.
For some of us - and we do not take our cue from the Leave campaign - it has nothing to do with payments into the EU budget. Whatever the sum, it is economically trivial, worth unfettered access to a giant market.
We are deciding whether to be guided by a Commission with quasi-executive powers that operates more like the priesthood of the 13th Century papacy than a modern civil service; and whether to submit to a European Court of Justice (ECJ) that claims sweeping supremacy, with no right of appeal.
(...) My Europhile Greek friend Yanis Varoufakis and I both agree on one central point, that today's EU is a deformed halfway house that nobody ever wanted. His solution is a great leap forward towards a United States of Europe with a genuine parliament holding an elected president to account. Though even he doubts his dream. "There is a virtue in heroic failure" he said.
(...) The EU crossed a fatal line when it smuggled through the Treaty of Lisbon, by executive cabal, after the text had already been rejected by French and Dutch voters in its earlier guise. It is one thing to advance the Project by stealth and the Monnet method, it is another to call a plebiscite and then to override the outcome.
Need I remind readers that our own government gave a "cast iron guarantee" to hold a referendum, but retreated claiming that Lisbon was tidying up exercise? It was no such thing. As we warned then, it created a European supreme court with jurisdiction over all areas of EU policy, with a legally-binding Charter of Fundamental Rights that opens the door to anything.
Need I add too, that Britain's opt-out from the Charter under Protocol 30 - described as "absolutely clear" by Tony Blair on the floor of the Commons - has since been swept aside by the ECJ.
(...) Has there ever been a proper airing of how the elected leaders of Greece and Italy were forced out of power and replaced by EU technocrats, perhaps not by coups d'etat in a strict legal sense but certainly by skulduggery?
On what authority did the European Central Bank write secret letters to the leaders of Spain and Italy in 2011 ordering detailed changes to labour and social law, and fiscal policy, holding a gun to their head on bond purchases?
What is so striking about these episodes is not that EU officials took such drastic decisions in the white heat of crisis, but that it was allowed to pass so easily. The EU's missionary press corps turned a blind eye. The European Parliament closed ranks, the reflex of a nomenklatura.
While you could say that the euro is nothing to do with us, it obviously goes to the character of the EU: how it exercises power, and how far it will go in extremis.
(...) This is my decision. It may go against my own interest, since I hope to live out part of my remaining years in France - though countless Britons lived there contentedly in 19th Century before we ever had such a thing as the European Union, and no doubt will continue to do so long after it is gone.
I urge nobody to follow my example. It ill behoves anyone over 50 to exhort an outcome too vehemently. Let the youth decide. It is they who must live with the consequences.
Errr SM, it's a bit too easy to come and joke about the British erection, that In / Out issue.Simple Minded wrote:I want to be the first to wish the people of the UK an erection that lasts all day long and leaves at least half of the participants very satisfied and content.
Alexis wrote:Errr SM, it's a bit too easy to come and joke about the British erection, that In / Out issue.Simple Minded wrote:I want to be the first to wish the people of the UK an erection that lasts all day long and leaves at least half of the participants very satisfied and content.
Tell us rather about that erection with Donald and Hillary.
It's like walking into a theater that shows XXX movies. the product never lives up to one's imagination or advertising. blame the producers or blame the buyers?If Merkel makes the same mistake as Hitler, and underestimates the capabilities of Endovelico's commandos in Portugal..... then she deserves to lose the whole enchilada (bad metaphor?).manolo wrote:Folks,
I have just been comparing a political map of Europe, post Brexit, with the map of Europe 1941.
Overall similarity. Germany is in a much better position this time around, and with England sidelined Merkel will be able to turn East without the threat on two
fronts. Norway is unoccupied this time around, but Merkel has Spain and Portugal. Switzerland and Ireland are just the same.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24367705
As previously discussed here, the UK will lose Scotland after Brexit and also Gibraltar and the Falklands. Gibraltar is the big one as it closes off the Med to the English, but the Malvinas were a long term strategic asset.
http://www.dw.com/en/gibraltar-wary-of- ... a-19345213
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ician.html
Interesting times.
Alex.
Simple Minded wrote: If Merkel makes the same mistake as Hitler, and underestimates the capabilities of Endovelico's commandos in Portugal..... then she deserves to lose the whole enchilada (bad metaphor?).
Obama also was tactful.manolo wrote:PS - Good to see that Merkel has kept her arm down. Most tactful.
We'll acknowledge the Wembley goal
We'll stop making jokes about Prince Charles's ears
We'll stop using sun cream on the beach out of solidarity with your sunburn
We'll reserve a place with our towels for you on the hotel sun-lounger
We'll introduce tea breaks
We'll turn our clocks back an hour to be in synch with you
We'll do without a goalie in penalty shoot-outs with you to make it a bit more exciting
We'll send (German national football manager) Joachim Low to guard your Crown Jewels
We'll introduce an EU regulation banning a frothy head on beer
We'll all come along to the Queen's 100th birthday
We'll willingly provide the villain in every Bond film
Why?Heracleum Persicum wrote:.
Seems , the "Leave" have won .. world stock market already crashing .. futures, Dow opening is down 550 point, Nasdaq 160 down , pound lost 15 cents, lost 10% of value already .. if confirmed "Leave" won, Brits pretty much f*cked.
http://www.cnbc.com/pre-markets/
http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/currencies
.
Why?Heracleum Persicum wrote:.
Folks, it's official .. Exit wins
Lol
What a ZOOOOOOOO
World entering a recession, a deeeeeeep recession
.
To Britain's credit, this decision was put to a referendum, which was exactly the proper way to decide.Alexis wrote:This is time to listen to this most appropriate of songs
j7ujvOWWfpY
God Save the Queen !
Whatever we may think of their decision yesterday, let it be said once and for all: Brits are not afraid, and on June 23rd, 2016, fear was not victorious.
This wish will be more personal: let the day soon come to sing the Marseillaise in similar circumstances. The darn Brits have beaten up to it... but we like them nonetheless!
