The U.K.

[Torchwood]

The Prime Minister and Chancellor who initiated this sorry nonsense are nowhere to be seen, the Leave campaigners have no plan because they did not expect to win and are now secretly horrified at the implications, the opposition Labour party are in a state of fratricide trying to remove a useless leader who won’t go, the only competent leader wants to break up the country, and the EU will not negotiate until the article requesting leaving is invoked (which no one here is in a fit condition to do).

Meanwhile the country is evenly divided between (in the other half’s eyes) supercilious snobs who won’t accept a democratic decision v ignorant yobs who did not know what they were voting for, with rising levels of anger approaching the atmosphere preceding a civil war. Meanwhile The economy is tanking, dragging down much of the rest of the world, and the precedent is empowering far right semi- or actual fascists across the world.

A week ago I was living in a successful developed country which was widely respected, especially as a long standing mature democracy.

Now I am living in a madhouse.

As most people here seem to support Leave (from the safety of distant armchairs) perhaps you can all jet it over to London and Brussels to sort it out, because no one in our sodding Mother of Parliaments seems capable of doing so. Oh and then remain to be accountable to the British people, although you might need some good security guards.

[Simple Minded]

The Prime Minister and Chancellor who initiated this sorry nonsense are nowhere to be seen, the Leave campaigners have no plan because they did not expect to win and are now secretly horrified at the implications, the opposition Labour party are in a state of fratricide trying to remove a useless leader who won’t go, the only competent leader wants to break up the country, and the EU will not negotiate until the article requesting leaving is invoked (which no one here is in a fit condition to do).

Meanwhile the country is evenly divided between (in the other half’s eyes) supercilious snobs who won’t accept a democratic decision v ignorant yobs who did not know what they were voting for, with rising levels of anger approaching the atmosphere preceding a civil war. Meanwhile The economy is tanking, dragging down much of the rest of the world, and the precedent is empowering far right semi- or actual fascists across the world.

A week ago I was living in a successful developed country which was widely respected, especially as a long standing mature democracy.

Now I am living in a madhouse.

As most people here seem to support Leave (from the safety of distant armchairs) perhaps you can all jet it over to London and Brussels to sort it out, because no one in our sodding Mother of Parliaments seems capable of doing so. Oh and then remain to be accountable to the British people, although you might need some good security guards.

Torchwood, thanks for, what appears to me, to be a heartfelt and sincere assessment of current status.

Regarding red text above, will of the people. No one ever said the mob was wise. Appeasing the mob just maximizes the time available before torches and pitchforks replace voting.

I personally, don't have a dog in this fight. Rule of the majority is supposed to be a major underpinning of civilized governance. However, votes are good indicators of social mood. Anyone who was surprised by the results of this vote was not paying attention for the last 10 years or so.

If you are feeling unwanted, I'll adopt you Torchwood. Plenty of room in Appalachia for people with large vocabularies.......

[Heracleum Persicum]

...Northern Ireland back to Republic of Ireland (leaving England) ...

Northern Ireland, despite Martin McGuiness's huffing and puffing, won't be going anywhere. There isn't a sliver of a chance. The vote in NI split along the usual Catholic/Protestant zones, and the electorate is highly pilliarized so no politician has enough support to drag the north into the republic.

Apparently, there is a clause in the Scotland/North Ireland/England that says Scottish parliament must approve any exit from EU by UK .. explicitly mentioned .. meaning, without Scottish parliament approval UK can not trigger article 50 of EU.

If , UK pushes too hard .. if so .. Brexit could be Scotland’s ticket into the EU as an independent state

.

My guess is, the Queens will say, people now know much more of the facts of exit, therefore a 2nd referendum justified

That probably the plan.

.

When has Elizabeth been so bold?

Last I read in the tabloids, the Queen was in favor of 'Leave'. But let's say we take that with a huge grain of salt- the Sun first reported it after all- the Queen would not use her standing to involve herself as it ultimately would be a waste of any political capital she possesses and opens up the monarchy to political vulnerabilities if anything went askew. Whether they are in or out, she (and her family) still get to be royalty. That has been her number one issue since the whole Diana thing; securing her family position and the monarchy from any calls of dissolution while making the Windsors unhappiness-proof. As Brexit has zero effect on her and not a soul would be blaming her for it (even if the whole of the Isles sank economically, ) why get involved now ?

.

If UK exits EU, there is a "real"danger "Great Britain" becoming "Small England" .. this not far fetched but a real possibility

What is the "essence" of a Monarchy, King/Queen having "absolute" power ? ? ? that power must be exercised when nation in danger.

This called "leadership", and, is expected from a sovereign, this the essence of having "absolute power" by a Monarch. If she saves UK, history (and Nation) will judge her taking side as positive.

She does not need to take side, stay/exit .. she just would request, after month or two, a second referendum

And

IMVHO , as this referendum was non binding, to make it binding, the winning side must have "clear majority" .. meaning, at least 60%.

.

[Doc]

...Northern Ireland back to Republic of Ireland (leaving England) ...

Northern Ireland, despite Martin McGuiness's huffing and puffing, won't be going anywhere. There isn't a sliver of a chance. The vote in NI split along the usual Catholic/Protestant zones, and the electorate is highly pilliarized so no politician has enough support to drag the north into the republic.

Apparently, there is a clause in the Scotland/North Ireland/England that says Scottish parliament must approve any exit from EU by UK .. explicitly mentioned .. meaning, without Scottish parliament approval UK can not trigger article 50 of EU.

If , UK pushes too hard .. if so .. Brexit could be Scotland’s ticket into the EU as an independent state

.

My guess is, the Queens will say, people now know much more of the facts of exit, therefore a 2nd referendum justified

That probably the plan.

.

When has Elizabeth been so bold?

Last I read in the tabloids, the Queen was in favor of 'Leave'. But let's say we take that with a huge grain of salt- the Sun first reported it after all- the Queen would not use her standing to involve herself as it ultimately would be a waste of any political capital she possesses and opens up the monarchy to political vulnerabilities if anything went askew. Whether they are in or out, she (and her family) still get to be royalty. That has been her number one issue since the whole Diana thing; securing her family position and the monarchy from any calls of dissolution while making the Windsors unhappiness-proof. As Brexit has zero effect on her and not a soul would be blaming her for it (even if the whole of the Isles sank economically, ) why get involved now ?

.

If UK exits EU, there is a "real"danger "Great Britain" becoming "Small England" .. this not far fetched but a real possibility

What is the "essence" of a Monarchy, King/Queen having "absolute" power ? ? ? that power must be exercised when nation in danger.

This called "leadership", and, is expected from a sovereign, this the essence of having "absolute power" by a Monarch. If she saves UK, history (and Nation) will judge her taking side as positive.

She does not need to take side, stay/exit .. she just would request, after month or two, a second referendum

And

IMVHO , as this referendum was non binding, to make it binding, the winning side must have "clear majority" .. meaning, at least 60%.

.

If the UK elites play this game it will take them months to take down the Pols from the poles in London.

One other thing the Scottish parliament has a $20 billion budget shortfall. They only have $30 billion to spend Apparently including 9 billion dollars from the EU

[Mr. Perfect]

TI almost all of us are living outside the EU, and we're fine without it.

It's not the end of the world it's just the end of EU.

And it sounds like you have no idea what a fascist is.

[Alexis]

The Prime Minister and Chancellor who initiated this sorry nonsense are nowhere to be seen, the Leave campaigners have no plan because they did not expect to win and are now secretly horrified at the implications, the opposition Labour party are in a state of fratricide trying to remove a useless leader who won’t go, the only competent leader wants to break up the country, and the EU will not negotiate until the article requesting leaving is invoked (which no one here is in a fit condition to do).

Meanwhile the country is evenly divided between (in the other half’s eyes) supercilious snobs who won’t accept a democratic decision v ignorant yobs who did not know what they were voting for, with rising levels of anger approaching the atmosphere preceding a civil war. Meanwhile The economy is tanking, dragging down much of the rest of the world, and the precedent is empowering far right semi- or actual fascists across the world.

A week ago I was living in a successful developed country which was widely respected, especially as a long standing mature democracy.

Now I am living in a madhouse.

As most people here seem to support Leave (from the safety of distant armchairs) perhaps you can all jet it over to London and Brussels to sort it out, because no one in our sodding Mother of Parliaments seems capable of doing so. Oh and then remain to be accountable to the British people, although you might need some good security guards.

I understand that you are distressed at the referendum's result, and I respect that of course. That being said, I see nothing surprising in no politician having raised with a precise and clear cut plan for implementing Brexit, a mere three days after the vote was counted. A Brexit implementation plan will need debating between Britons, then negotiating with other EU governments. There is no way of doing all of that in a mere 72 hours.

As for ideas of what to do, what status of relationship with the EU to aim for, quite many of them are floating at least in the British press. The "Norvegian" model is one, that is being "Out" with a big part of "In" in it, but getting unfettered market access in exchange. Other models with greater level of independence but some restrictions to market access are also possible - reminding that Chinese or Japanese levels of access to EU market have not prevented those nations, and others, to trade and export a lot with the EU... and Chinese as well as Japanese independence with regard to the EU is quite extensive I see both British and EU-less-Britain politicians positioning themselves for this or that option, or grades between those two extremes. Nothing to be surprised of.

The initial act is of course to invoke Article 50 and announce officially the decision to leave the EU. Be it as a negotiating tactic or for internal British reasons, Cameron has decided not to invoke, and to delay it until next Fall at the earliest when his successor is installed at Downing Street. If it's an error to delay and slow the process, then Cameron is responsible for that error, and nobody else.

Regarding the atmosphere in Britain, I would wait and see. People cannot stay horrified, in shock and angry at one another for very long periods of time, especially when nothing special happens. And not much will happen in the few next weeks, or months, whatever the desires of Hollande or others to "speed up the process" - the initial step can only be British. Regarding the pound, well looking its value in relationship to the euro in the last five years, it remains quite high now even after the June 24th plunge. And stock markets... are stock markets, they will go up and down besides the fall was not so large. Little to be worried about here.
So I would expect the atmosphere of anger and shock in Britain to abate within the next few weeks and months.

About Britain being respected, what you may not be in a mood to hear, but I will tell you nonetheless is this: being democratic enough to let the people decide whether they would stay or leave is something to be congratulated for. Even if Cameron obviously did it for ulterior and manipulative motives, it's not about him, it's about British democracy. Britain has been the first country to organize a referendum on EU remain or leave, and no matter whether one likes or dislikes Britons' choice, that much cannot be taken back from your country that its democratic tradition resulted in such a referendum being organised.

There may be some noise and confusion right now, but in the future I'm convinced June 23rd, 2016 will be a good date in British history, one future Britons will be proud of. One of two scenarios will have unfolded:
- either the EU will botch that very last chance to reform itself in order to get back the love of the peoples it encompasses, and Britain will get the honour of having been the first to see the light and be courageous enough to leave
- or the EU will reform in such a way - for the record, I don't believe it at all, but let's assume for a moment - in which case Britain will have the honour of having been instrumental to forcing such a reform. And if the EU really becomes such a marvellous thing after all, well the UK will be back fifteen or thirty years from now

Regarding my position, I'm a French guy who also wants his country out of the EU. You may think this is foolish, but in any case it's certainly not being an armchair warrior.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

The Prime Minister and Chancellor who initiated this sorry nonsense are nowhere to be seen, the Leave campaigners have no plan because they did not expect to win and are now secretly horrified at the implications, the opposition Labour party are in a state of fratricide trying to remove a useless leader who won’t go, the only competent leader wants to break up the country, and the EU will not negotiate until the article requesting leaving is invoked (which no one here is in a fit condition to do).

Meanwhile the country is evenly divided between (in the other half’s eyes) supercilious snobs who won’t accept a democratic decision v ignorant yobs who did not know what they were voting for, with rising levels of anger approaching the atmosphere preceding a civil war. Meanwhile The economy is tanking, dragging down much of the rest of the world, and the precedent is empowering far right semi- or actual fascists across the world.

A week ago I was living in a successful developed country which was widely respected, especially as a long standing mature democracy.

Now I am living in a madhouse.

As most people here seem to support Leave (from the safety of distant armchairs) perhaps you can all jet it over to London and Brussels to sort it out, because no one in our sodding Mother of Parliaments seems capable of doing so. Oh and then remain to be accountable to the British people, although you might need some good security guards.

I understand that you are distressed at the referendum's result, and I respect that of course. That being said, I see nothing surprising in no politician having raised with a precise and clear cut plan for implementing Brexit, a mere three days after the vote was counted. A Brexit implementation plan will need debating between Britons, then negotiating with other EU governments. There is no way of doing all of that in a mere 72 hours.

As for ideas of what to do, what status of relationship with the EU to aim for, quite many of them are floating at least in the British press. The "Norvegian" model is one, that is being "Out" with a big part of "In" in it, but getting unfettered market access in exchange. Other models with greater level of independence but some restrictions to market access are also possible - reminding that Chinese or Japanese levels of access to EU market have not prevented those nations, and others, to trade and export a lot with the EU... and Chinese as well as Japanese independence with regard to the EU is quite extensive I see both British and EU-less-Britain politicians positioning themselves for this or that option, or grades between those two extremes. Nothing to be surprised of.

The initial act is of course to invoke Article 50 and announce officially the decision to leave the EU. Be it as a negotiating tactic or for internal British reasons, Cameron has decided not to invoke, and to delay it until next Fall at the earliest when his successor is installed at Downing Street. If it's an error to delay and slow the process, then Cameron is responsible for that error, and nobody else.

Regarding the atmosphere in Britain, I would wait and see. People cannot stay horrified, in shock and angry at one another for very long periods of time, especially when nothing special happens. And not much will happen in the few next weeks, or months, whatever the desires of Hollande or others to "speed up the process" - the initial step can only be British. Regarding the pound, well looking its value in relationship to the euro in the last five years, it remains quite high now even after the June 24th plunge. And stock markets... are stock markets, they will go up and down besides the fall was not so large. Little to be worried about here.
So I would expect the atmosphere of anger and shock in Britain to abate within the next few weeks and months.

About Britain being respected, what you may not be in a mood to hear, but I will tell you nonetheless is this: being democratic enough to let the people decide whether they would stay or leave is something to be congratulated for. Even if Cameron obviously did it for ulterior and manipulative motives, it's not about him, it's about British democracy. Britain has been the first country to organize a referendum on EU remain or leave, and no matter whether one likes or dislikes Britons' choice, that much cannot be taken back from your country that its democratic tradition resulted in such a referendum being organised.

There may be some noise and confusion right now, but in the future I'm convinced June 23rd, 2016 will be a good date in British history, one future Britons will be proud of. One of two scenarios will have unfolded:
- either the EU will botch that very last chance to reform itself in order to get back the love of the peoples it encompasses, and Britain will get the honour of having been the first to see the light and be courageous enough to leave
- or the EU will reform in such a way - for the record, I don't believe it at all, but let's assume for a moment - in which case Britain will have the honour of having been instrumental to forcing such a reform. And if the EU really becomes such a marvellous thing after all, well the UK will be back fifteen or thirty years from now

Regarding my position, I'm a French guy who also wants his country out of the EU. You may think this is foolish, but in any case it's certainly not being an armchair warrior.

well said.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Apparently, there is a clause in the Scotland/North Ireland/England that says Scottish parliament must approve any exit from EU by UK .. explicitly mentioned .. meaning, without Scottish parliament approval UK can not trigger article 50 of EU.

nope, says there is an interpretation of the law which implies Scotland and Northern Ireland may have to approve of Brexit in their parliaments.

While I've no doubt we are heading towards the remainers insisting on this- it sounds like a court case waiting to happen- there's nothing suggesting it outright.

If , UK pushes too hard .. if so .. Brexit could be Scotland’s ticket into the EU as an independent state

Azari, I was believing this too- if England/Wales wish to separate, that could give the last impetus to an independent Scotland, after all, they only needed 5-6% more after the last vote, right?

But I'm not so sure because of three reasons:

1)Scotland's voting amount on Brexit was lower than imagined. By the looks of it, most Scots didn't care either way.

2)After Scotland last sent SNP to the House of Commons in large numbers, my understanding is that there is disappointment with the party, and it could depress the vote for independence (as the party is wrapped up in the issue.)

3)Where exactly would they go? It's no guarantee that the EU takes them. The EU may disappear before they even get a chance to do so. Scotland's has the dimensions to be par with New Zealand or Norway, but with its dependence on natural resources; it is far less stable than Great Britain as a whole. Do France/Germany/the Netherlands/et al. want to pay for Scotland during bad times?

If UK exits EU, there is a "real"danger "Great Britain" becoming "Small England" .. this not far fetched but a real possibility

What is the "essence" of a Monarchy, King/Queen having "absolute" power ? ? ? that power must be exercised when nation in danger.

This called "leadership", and, is expected from a sovereign, this the essence of having "absolute power" by a Monarch. If she saves UK, history (and Nation) will judge her taking side as positive.

She does not need to take side, stay/exit .. she just would request, after month or two, a second referendum

And

IMVHO , as this referendum was non binding, to make it binding, the winning side must have "clear majority" .. meaning, at least 60%.

.

Fair enough, no one doubt she doesn't wish to see Scotland leave. But I wouldn't call the British monarch absolute.

Queen Elizabeth reigns but she does not rule. The Queen herself does not even give assent to parliament, an appointed commission does that and the clerk of parliament signs its bills into law. Queen Anne was the last monarch to refuse the royal assent and King Henry the last to actually sign any bill....or well, rule anything. Her signature doesn't count and neither does her opinion.

The most she could do to register dissent would be to fire her ministers, appoint a temp. Lord Chancellor willing to sign the act of dissolute of Parliament. Good luck with all of that, 'cause that's entering kill the patient to achieve a cure territory.

[Parodite]

One would almost think that the oligarchy that designed the Euro+EU foresaw and intended to break up national unity in European nation states. The UK might become their No1 success story. Then with an independent Scotland living on EU life support more strife is to come. Amazing how the raped start to love the rapist and blame other rape victims for their misery.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Azari, this is what I was getting at about Scots souring on SNP after they've been in office for a while:

Reuter's story says poll shows Scots do not want a second vote for independence

right now the poll splits something like 44 against- 41 for....and if you scroll down, 47 say they would vote for a break if a referendum on independence were held.

47 would be a +2 from the 45 last time; still not enough to split the kingdoms....

...and a majority not wishing for a second vote suggests that Nicola Sturgeon and co. are wearing thin with a portion of the voters.

that's not the type of headwind you want to punish the English and Welsh for doing English and Welsh-type things.

[Parodite]

Man liberals can sure cry.

No, it's a mixed bag:

42% Tory wanted to remain (conservative cry Tories) and 30% Labour wanted to leave (clear headed liberals).

Man it's difficult to get the Euros right

[Torchwood]

Azari, this is what I was getting at about Scots souring on SNP after they've been in office for a while:

Reuter's story says poll shows Scots do not want a second vote for independence

right now the poll splits something like 44 against- 41 for....and if you scroll down, 47 say they would vote for a break if a referendum on independence were held.

47 would be a +2 from the 45 last time; still not enough to split the kingdoms....

...and a majority not wishing for a second vote suggests that Nicola Sturgeon and co. are wearing thin with a portion of the voters.

that's not the type of headwind you want to punish the English and Welsh for doing English and Welsh-type things.

Sturgeon is the only capable leader around at the moment in the DK (disunited kingdom) and she is intelligent enough to know this. I wish she was PM of the whole UK. Also oil price is way lower than at the time of last referendum, and without English money as regional grants Scottish economy is screwed. That is why she is pursuing the constitutional route. That is on very shaky ground but might be an escape route for the Remain majority of MPs " We would have liked to implement the democratic will of the people but the Scotland Act does not allow this. We could amend this act but it would not be proper to do so without the consent of the Scottish parliament. Sorry, Brexit won't happen, but blame the Scots! "

[Simple Minded]

The Prime Minister and Chancellor who initiated this sorry nonsense are nowhere to be seen, the Leave campaigners have no plan because they did not expect to win and are now secretly horrified at the implications, the opposition Labour party are in a state of fratricide trying to remove a useless leader who won’t go, the only competent leader wants to break up the country, and the EU will not negotiate until the article requesting leaving is invoked (which no one here is in a fit condition to do).

Meanwhile the country is evenly divided between (in the other half’s eyes) supercilious snobs who won’t accept a democratic decision v ignorant yobs who did not know what they were voting for, with rising levels of anger approaching the atmosphere preceding a civil war. Meanwhile The economy is tanking, dragging down much of the rest of the world, and the precedent is empowering far right semi- or actual fascists across the world.

A week ago I was living in a successful developed country which was widely respected, especially as a long standing mature democracy.

Now I am living in a madhouse.

As most people here seem to support Leave (from the safety of distant armchairs) perhaps you can all jet it over to London and Brussels to sort it out, because no one in our sodding Mother of Parliaments seems capable of doing so. Oh and then remain to be accountable to the British people, although you might need some good security guards.

I understand that you are distressed at the referendum's result, and I respect that of course. That being said, I see nothing surprising in no politician having raised with a precise and clear cut plan for implementing Brexit, a mere three days after the vote was counted. A Brexit implementation plan will need debating between Britons, then negotiating with other EU governments. There is no way of doing all of that in a mere 72 hours.

As for ideas of what to do, what status of relationship with the EU to aim for, quite many of them are floating at least in the British press. The "Norvegian" model is one, that is being "Out" with a big part of "In" in it, but getting unfettered market access in exchange. Other models with greater level of independence but some restrictions to market access are also possible - reminding that Chinese or Japanese levels of access to EU market have not prevented those nations, and others, to trade and export a lot with the EU... and Chinese as well as Japanese independence with regard to the EU is quite extensive I see both British and EU-less-Britain politicians positioning themselves for this or that option, or grades between those two extremes. Nothing to be surprised of.

The initial act is of course to invoke Article 50 and announce officially the decision to leave the EU. Be it as a negotiating tactic or for internal British reasons, Cameron has decided not to invoke, and to delay it until next Fall at the earliest when his successor is installed at Downing Street. If it's an error to delay and slow the process, then Cameron is responsible for that error, and nobody else.

Regarding the atmosphere in Britain, I would wait and see. People cannot stay horrified, in shock and angry at one another for very long periods of time, especially when nothing special happens. And not much will happen in the few next weeks, or months, whatever the desires of Hollande or others to "speed up the process" - the initial step can only be British. Regarding the pound, well looking its value in relationship to the euro in the last five years, it remains quite high now even after the June 24th plunge. And stock markets... are stock markets, they will go up and down besides the fall was not so large. Little to be worried about here.
So I would expect the atmosphere of anger and shock in Britain to abate within the next few weeks and months.

About Britain being respected, what you may not be in a mood to hear, but I will tell you nonetheless is this: being democratic enough to let the people decide whether they would stay or leave is something to be congratulated for. Even if Cameron obviously did it for ulterior and manipulative motives, it's not about him, it's about British democracy. Britain has been the first country to organize a referendum on EU remain or leave, and no matter whether one likes or dislikes Britons' choice, that much cannot be taken back from your country that its democratic tradition resulted in such a referendum being organised.

There may be some noise and confusion right now, but in the future I'm convinced June 23rd, 2016 will be a good date in British history, one future Britons will be proud of. One of two scenarios will have unfolded:
- either the EU will botch that very last chance to reform itself in order to get back the love of the peoples it encompasses, and Britain will get the honour of having been the first to see the light and be courageous enough to leave
- or the EU will reform in such a way - for the record, I don't believe it at all, but let's assume for a moment - in which case Britain will have the honour of having been instrumental to forcing such a reform. And if the EU really becomes such a marvellous thing after all, well the UK will be back fifteen or thirty years from now

Regarding my position, I'm a French guy who also wants his country out of the EU. You may think this is foolish, but in any case it's certainly not being an armchair warrior.

well said.

Seconded. Well said Alexis. It is time for another vote. Across all of Europe.

I, not my country, but me as an individual, wish to stay or remain (circle one) in the EU as currently configured.

I, not my country, but me as an individual,want the EU to be reconfigured to exclude the following countries: ___________________________________________________
and include the following countries: ______________________________________________________________________________

That would be an informative vote. And would probably provide a lot of information that few want to hear. Might just find out that absent Germany, Brussels, and the PIGS, middle class Europeans like the idea of the EU. Not too hot, not too cold, this EU porridge is just right.

Brexit is a continuation of the Tea Party, OWS, Palin, Obama, and the Trump phenomena's. Let's just savor that for a few days, US politics has been bumped from the headlines. No one can be the craziest person you know for long.

[Simple Minded]

One would almost think that the oligarchy that designed the Euro+EU foresaw and intended to break up national unity in European nation states. The UK might become their No1 success story. Then with an independent Scotland living on EU life support more strife is to come. Amazing how the raped start to love the rapist and blame other rape victims for their misery.

On this side of the pond we call it the battered wife syndrome. When the husband finally stops beating the wife, she then complains "You don't love me anymore!"

[Torchwood]

English and Welsh tea.

brexitdem.jpg

In England and Wales, Remain won in prosperous outward looking areas where immigrants are either useful servants or have PhDs, not just London but also Bristol, Cardiff, Cambridge, Thames Valley, Manchester, Leeds, and there are enough good jobs to go around for locals, the main problem (affordable housing) is a domestic UK issue. These have English/Welsh majorities, so does London but less than 50% are native white British (no evidence that black/brown Britons voted any different to their white neighbours). Conversely Leave areas are either depressed economically or have a large influx of EU immigrants who compete with semi skilled local Brits.

So this chart is wrong. The legitimate cause of Leave was mass immigration. If the EU had made some concession on free movement of labour, Remain would have won.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Azari, this is what I was getting at about Scots souring on SNP after they've been in office for a while:

Reuter's story says poll shows Scots do not want a second vote for independence

right now the poll splits something like 44 against- 41 for....and if you scroll down, 47 say they would vote for a break if a referendum on independence were held.

47 would be a +2 from the 45 last time; still not enough to split the kingdoms....

...and a majority not wishing for a second vote suggests that Nicola Sturgeon and co. are wearing thin with a portion of the voters.

that's not the type of headwind you want to punish the English and Welsh for doing English and Welsh-type things.

Sturgeon is the only capable leader around at the moment in the DK (disunited kingdom) and she is intelligent enough to know this. I wish she was PM of the whole UK. Also oil price is way lower than at the time of last referendum, and without English money as regional grants Scottish economy is screwed. That is why she is pursuing the constitutional route. That is on very shaky ground but might be an escape route for the Remain majority of MPs " We would have liked to implement the democratic will of the people but the Scotland Act does not allow this. We could amend this act but it would not be proper to do so without the consent of the Scottish parliament. Sorry, Brexit won't happen, but blame the Scots! "

Capable of what?

I find her and the SNP awfully frivolous. She agitates for something she knows she cannot afford and ultimately, doesn't really desire. What's the point of Scottish particularism (any particularism really, ) if it doesn't advocate for self-governance? Scots Independence is not serious; and while I suppose one can applaud or admire her three-card monty trick of complaining about Westminster while schlepping Brussels, it's still just a gesture. All of it, a series of gestures as a mean to avoid addressing problems in Scotland she may be able to deal with.*

edit: and by "deal with" I mean, what practical initiative has she ever taken on and accomplished for Scotland, for Glasgow? Glasgow is a most dispiriting place and I'm unaware of one thing in that city she has improved or fought to improve. She couldn't even pull in enough votes from the metropolitian settlement of her home constituency as Glaswegians stayed home in higher numbers that was imagined.

Her career has been: go to school to get credentials and then glom onto politics, going from one committee or position to another; up the greasy pole. I once asked a few Glaswegian what she was for, and the blank expressions were priceless. "But she isn't mean!" That is quite reassuring. The biggest impression I got was that she was acceptable because, at the very least, she was slightly left of labor. It seems in Scotland, anything to the right of labor is either due to greed or eccentricity- and the Scots shall not tolerate either. [and doubly so for the word shall]

A gloss of her issues go from: stop nukes, free Scotland, and no austerity. Being a big picture kind of gal, she merely advances those things without any sort of idea of how to bring these things into practice and ultimately incapable of delivering, as of yet, on any of this. But a vote made her like super-popular the last time, so maybe this time around she'll be ultra-ultra.

[Doc]

English and Welsh tea.

brexitdem.jpg

In England and Wales, Remain won in prosperous outward looking areas where immigrants are either useful servants or have PhDs, not just London but also Bristol, Cardiff, Cambridge, Thames Valley, Manchester, Leeds, and there are enough good jobs to go around for locals, the main problem (affordable housing) is a domestic UK issue. These have English/Welsh majorities, so does London but less than 50% are native white British (no evidence that black/brown Britons voted any different to their white neighbours). Conversely Leave areas are either depressed economically or have a large influx of EU immigrants who compete with semi skilled local Brits.

So this chart is wrong. The legitimate cause of Leave was mass immigration. If the EU had made some concession on free movement of labour, Remain would have won.

The EU was never going to give on Immigration EU politicians have gone way to far out on that limb to cut it off. If Merkel greed to that Germans would now be hunting her down with pitch forks

The real problem with the EU is it is all about money and power for the elitist folks running it. For them nothing else matters. If Hillary got a 100 million from gulf oil sheiks and governments then you can be sure that the Euro-elite got more. Instead of a oil for food program it is now a oil for immigrants program.

[Torchwood]

Cameron has said in parliament that we must respect the result, and who cares what Corbyn thinks . It looks as if Brexit will go ahead. MPs could vote it down, but that would require a massive rebellion by Tory Remain MPs. That seems very unlikely, given that most are in constituencies with Leave majorities and party members are overwhelmingly eurosceptic.

What we might get is a General Election before invoking article 50. If Labour got a decent leader, a lot of remain supporting Tories might vote for them. The continuing uncertainty would damage the economy however.

If we do leave, the choices are stark:
- join the EEA like Norway to remain in single market. Obey EU law, free labour movement, pay contribution (but may lose rebate) but no say on what happens. Leave thinking we could be in single market without these conditions is pure fantasy. So as now but worse
- leave single market, massive economic damage.
Those of us who are economically and politically literate knew this before the vote. Sorry to be elitist.

[Typhoon]

. . .

As most people here seem to support Leave (from the safety of distant armchairs) perhaps you can all jet it over to London and Brussels to sort it out, because no one in our sodding Mother of Parliaments seems capable of doing so. Oh and then remain to be accountable to the British people, although you might need some good security guards.

The French and Dutch contingent seems to be in favour of Frexit and Nexit

Anyways, fair enough.

Neve criticize a man's views until one has walked a mile in his shoes.

One is then one mile away . . .

and has his shoes.

[Simple Minded]

....
Those of us who are economically and politically literate knew this before the vote. Sorry to be elitist.

No problem Bro. Someone has to tell the unwashed masses what to think and do, might as well be you. Sorry I can't help, but my hands are full trying to un-FUBAR the US.

So, when I read you posts, should I read them with a Scottish, English, Irish, Welsh, French, German, Dutch, or a European accent?

[Torchwood]

....
Those of us who are economically and politically literate knew this before the vote. Sorry to be elitist.

No problem Bro. Someone has to tell the unwashed masses what to think and do, might as well be you. Sorry I can't help, but my hands are full trying to un-FUBAR the US.

So, when I read you posts, should I read them with a Scottish, English, Irish, Welsh, French, German, Dutch, or a European accent?

Despite the best efforts of Brussels, there is no European accent. I am tempted to say Icelandic, they are playing England at football in the Euros tonight, but they are not in the EU. You could try French our closest neighbour/ally/enemy, but then Mutti Merkel will decide all. "You vill obey, Englische schweinhunden !" Die Deutscher are a bit more polite and peaceful these days, but the result is the same.

Yeah, democracy sucks, but then the alternative screws the dumbfucks even more.

[Alexis]

should I read them with a Scottish, English, Irish, Welsh, French, German, Dutch, or a European accent?

Choose the one you like most. Anyway it will strongly help cross-European cultural understanding.

SXn2QVipK2o

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


The Independant
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

. . as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in : the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

.

Voila

.

[Alexis]

If we do leave, the choices are stark:
- join the EEA like Norway to remain in single market. Obey EU law, free labour movement, pay contribution (but may lose rebate) but no say on what happens. Leave thinking we could be in single market without these conditions is pure fantasy. So as now but worse
- leave single market, massive economic damage.
Those of us who are economically and politically literate knew this before the vote. Sorry to be elitist.

- "Obey EU law"
Actually, Norway is member of the EEA the European Economic Area.
As a result:
1. Norway is subject to only a minority of EU law

From the 23,000 EU laws currently in force, the EEA has incorporated around 5,000 (in force) meaning that Norway is subject to roughly 21% of EU laws. According to Norway's Foreign Affairs (NOU 2012:2 p. 790, 795), from the legislative acts implemented from 1994 to 2010, 70% of EU directives and 17% of EU regulations in force in the EU in 2008 were in force in Norway in 2010. Overall, this means that about 28% of EU legislation in force of these two types in 2008 were in force in Norway in 2010.

2. Even better, Norway cannot be sujected to a new EU law unless its parliament accepts it - which it is in no obligation to do.

While the Norwegian parliament has to approve all new legislation which has "significant new obligations", this has been widely supported and usually uncontested; between 1992 and 2011, 92% of EU laws were approved unanimously, and most of the rest by a broad majority.

That a lot of EU legislation is approved by the Norwegian parliament is a choice. They don't have to do it, and when they don't agree, well they don't do it.

- "Free labour movement"
Yes, a Norway-like agreement would mean the UK wouldn't get any more of a right to prevent EU nationals coming to work in the UK than it has now. Meaning: none at all.
Too bad for those British people who thought Poles or Romanians were too numerous. Or stinked badly.

- "Pay contribution"
Norway paid 290 m€ to EU budget in 2013, amounting to significantly less than 0,1% of their GDP.
Britain's net contribution to EU budget - taking into account the rebate, and diminishing by the amount that the EU spends in Britain - is about 8.5 billion pounds, that is about 0.5% of GDP.

- "No say on what happens"
None, of course. Which is obviously normal.


To sum it up, a Norway-like agreement for future UK-EU relations would mean for Britain to get the final say on what law should apply in Britain + a much reduced financial contribution, in exchange for renouncing the right to influence the legislation which is applied in such places as Estonia, Greece, Portugal or Croatia.

To anybody interested in global - in this case European-wide - uniformization, this will look like a bad deal. What, no more of a say for British governments and British delegates in Brussels in what the law says in Trifouilly-les-Oies (France), Kuhdorf (Germany) or Anytown (Ireland)? How horrible.

To anybody interested in self-government by existing nations within a democratic framework, this will look like a really good deal indeed. Incidentally, polls have consistently shown for years that circa 70% of Norwegians would refuse EU membership. They don't seem to dislike that deal.

Who knows, if Britain negotiates an equivalent arrangement - not yet done, I grant that, but this is only the fourth day since the vote was counted - maybe you will end up supporting it, after a few years?

[Doc]

^^^^

Globalization, at least, in its current form is dead. Not so much because of Brexit but because of abysmal leadership from out of touch elites. 3d print making is the future. Trade will be IP rather than physical goods. Food will be grown in warehouses close to the markets they serve. It may be the case that money is made obsolete to a large degree.

After all there are only three means that wealth is created Mining, Manufacturing, and Farming. Seems like a good time to sell Manufacturing investments and buy Hydro-carbon investments.


Thanks for all the info Alexis Quite informative.