On the Nature of Things | Forum

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:26 pm**

What a disaster, Little England (and Wales). First time I have been ashamed to be British. It is old people to blame, clear Remain majority in the under 50s.

This will embolden Trump and Le Pen in France, as well as UKIP in UK. Welcome to Fascism mark 2.

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:33 pm**

Do you know what fascism is.

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:36 pm**

Parodite wrote:JFt-pRIvL9E

I don't think it can be said better.

UTMxfAkxfQ0

How come you guys never responded to this.

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:18 pm**

And EUers, it's not the end of the world, it's the end of well you know.

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:51 pm**

Torchwood wrote:What a disaster, Little England (and Wales). First time I have been ashamed to be British. It is old people to blame, clear Remain majority in the under 50s.

This will embolden Trump and Le Pen in France, as well as UKIP in UK. Welcome to Fascism mark 2.

torchwood,

Why would you be ashamed to be British, simply because approximately half the country disagrees with you on this issues? do you really consider yourself to be British, or Irish, Scott, Welsch, European, etc?

thanks in advance for your answer.

"when all is said and done, a lot more will be said than done!"

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:45 am**

Zack Morris wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Zack Morris wrote:I work with a few Brits. They are all firmly in the Remain camp. They're also all certifiably brilliant people and we're paying bags full of cash to retain them (one of them spends most of his time working from an idyllic location in continental Europe, much to the chagrin of US-based management). Funny how no matter where you go in the world, the smart people are never one of mind with US wingnuts.
In other words you couldn't come up with a single point of rebuttal.
The Brexit is going to put British firms, which rely heavily on exports to the Eurozone, at a disadvantage. Britain and Germany are Europe's most dynamic economies, aided greatly by the reduced friction in the flow of capital and labor across borders. Increasing barriers, increasing economic friction, is incredibly wasteful. Here's what will happen post-Brexit: the British will end up negotiating a series of trade and immigration treaties that will effectively be almost identical to what presently exists, but will waste time and money doing so. Net outcome: slightly negative.

After a few years, the productive segment of Britain's workforce -- which is ethnically diverse and well-educated, like the productive segment of our workforce -- will tire of artificial barriers created for the benefit of white nationalists and will end up pulling closer to the EU and Asia anyway.

No.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:07 am**

In 1975, 2/3 of the UK voted for the EEC; In 1991, only 17% wanted out. As 'little Englanders' died off in the last 25 years, they somehow, magically, grew in number.

Must be about decrepit bitter clingers against the arc of history and has nothing to do with people changing their mind or knowing a good deal when they see one (or knowing a good deal more).

It's funny that when 'youth' have real stakes in how their gov't is run, financial portfolios and ownership, civic concerns, etc...they somehow turn into decrepit bitter clingers who don't understand what history is telling'em to do!

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:25 am**

Today's oldsters were yesterday's Rolling Stones groupies, literally in this case. And it will continue.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:47 am**

Mr. Perfect wrote:Today's oldsters were yesterday's Rolling Stones groupies, literally in this case. And it will continue.

Perhaps.

I do know that this attempt to invalidate the majority by dividing it between the old vs young (in a country where 40 is now the median age!) is embarrassing and is not respectable.

They may as well tell us outright that they don't believe in citizen governance; they don't believe in voter enfranchisement; they have no loyalty to their fellow countrymen- just to their class...

Then they wonder why their support is dropping while double down on the opprobrium- but we have it on good authority that their opponents are the morons.

I can't wait to follow through this kind of thinking: old people don't deserve to vote; but neither would anyone under 30. And recent immigrants? What do they know about the will of the country? These are people who change residency like they change underwear, so they've got to wait at least 5 generations before their vote counts. And what of the deaf, dumb and blind? These people suffer from unfortunate defects which hinder their ability to fully participate in society, so maybe their votes should just count for half.

This can be a whole lot of fun determining which voters are legitimate. I'm excited!

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:38 am**

Meanwhile, in Brussels . . .

Vz6r0TP4FBI

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:06 am**

The funny thing is that most countries with a few exceptions do foreign trade on the margins of their economies.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:00 am**

The next James Bond? Or the real James Bond.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:31 pm**

Farage from UKIP asked for a second referendum if the remain majority was very small (less than 3%). Well, the biter bit, it's valid the other way (it was 52-48 for leave). The simple majority bar was way too low for a massive constitutional change in an evenly divided country, Russian roulette. There is a Remain majority in Parliament, let's see if the Tory Remainers now step up to the plate. A year of mess and recession hitting the Leave areas hardest would change minds, nobody wants to lose the Scots, and hopefully the EU will be more accommodating. The latter is not inconceivable, as there is pressure for "Frexit" (france) and "Nexit" (Netherlands). A leading politician said a while ago that the only way to get the EU to change is to threaten to go - Boris Johnson our probable next PM.

Yesterday I felt very emotionally upset and it felt like (in my case) a second bereavement , my country had died, because there are cultural aspects to this (Globalisers v Middle England). This was silly and over the top. After a good night's sleep we already have how can we work round this to reunite mainly from the remain side, and Leavers saying OMG what have we done. Messy compromise is one of the better parts of our national character.

I don't think that we will actually leave, a new deal and a second referendum that Remain would win. If this gun to their heads gets the EU to change, it might even do some good. "Ever closer union" is dead after the fiascos that have been the Euro and Schengen - and it is no longer just us Brits thinking this. Manuel Valls, the most impressive centre left politician in France, stated this yesterday - because they have the Front National calling for Frexit

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:21 pm**

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
In 1975, 2/3 of the UK voted for the EEC; In 1991, only 17% wanted out. As 'little Englanders' died off in the last 25 years, they somehow, magically, grew in number.

Must be about decrepit bitter clingers against the arc of history and has nothing to do with people changing their mind or knowing a good deal when they see one (or knowing a good deal more).

It's funny that when 'youth' have real stakes in how their gov't is run, financial portfolios and ownership, civic concerns, etc...they somehow turn into decrepit bitter clingers who don't understand what history is telling'em to do!

Mr. Perfect wrote:Today's oldsters were yesterday's Rolling Stones groupies, literally in this case. And it will continue.
Perhaps.

I do know that this attempt to invalidate the majority by dividing it between the old vs young (in a country where 40 is now the median age!) is embarrassing and is not respectable.

They may as well tell us outright that they don't believe in citizen governance; they don't believe in voter enfranchisement; they have no loyalty to their fellow countrymen- just to their class...

Then they wonder why their support is dropping while double down on the opprobrium- but we have it on good authority that their opponents are the morons.

I can't wait to follow through this kind of thinking: old people don't deserve to vote; but neither would anyone under 30. And recent immigrants? What do they know about the will of the country? These are people who change residency like they change underwear, so they've got to wait at least 5 generations before their vote counts. And what of the deaf, dumb and blind? These people suffer from unfortunate defects which hinder their ability to fully participate in society, so maybe their votes should just count for half.

This can be a whole lot of fun determining which voters are legitimate. I'm excited!

Napster,

Once again, i saute you, but not like Mr. Bean.... You are definitely more intellectualish than I.

I was going to suggest a simpler approach. Just get a couple hundred people who think they are smarter than everyone else together in a room, and spend a decade or two determining what the vote really meant, and parsing the words "remain," "exit," and "EU." When it is finally determined, that, the vote was either indeterminate or undeterminable, have another vote, and look for different results due to demographic die off, immigration, and culture change.

Or point out that some if some black America didn't come over and say "Vote to remain or sit in the back of the bus!" then the 52% of the UK who are racist and/or xenophobic would have stayed home on voting day. Threfore the vote tally is invalid.

The only fair way to do this is make the EU like one of those record of the month clubs. Each month, each quarter, or each year you pay your dues, and when you think you are paying more in dues than you are getting in benefits, you drop out and stop paying your dues.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:28 pm**

Torchwood wrote:Farage from UKIP asked for a second referendum if the remain majority was very small (less than 3%). Well, the biter bit, it's valid the other way (it was 52-48 for leave). The simple majority bar was way too low for a massive constitutional change in an evenly divided country, Russian roulette. There is a Remain majority in Parliament, let's see if the Tory Remainers now step up to the plate. A year of mess and recession hitting the Leave areas hardest would change minds, nobody wants to lose the Scots, and hopefully the EU will be more accommodating. The latter is not inconceivable, as there is pressure for "Frexit" (france) and "Nexit" (Netherlands). A leading politician said a while ago that the only way to get the EU to change is to threaten to go - Boris Johnson our probable next PM.

Yesterday I felt very emotionally upset and it felt like (in my case) a second bereavement , my country had died, because there are cultural aspects to this (Globalisers v Middle England). This was silly and over the top. After a good night's sleep we already have how can we work round this to reunite mainly from the remain side, and Leavers saying OMG what have we done. Messy compromise is one of the better parts of our national character.

I don't think that we will actually leave, a new deal and a second referendum that Remain would win. If this gun to their heads gets the EU to change, it might even do some good. "Ever closer union" is dead after the fiascos that have been the Euro and Schengen - and it is no longer just us Brits thinking this. Manuel Valls, the most impressive centre left politician in France, stated this yesterday - because they have the Front National calling for Frexit

The beauty of big groups, they can be endlessly parsed into sub-groups.

There should be a Europe wide vote.

1. i want my country ____________ (fill in the blank) to stay or remain (circle one) in the EU.

2. If you voted to remain above, list the countries you want booted out of the EU below. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

3. Enclosed is my voluntary donation to save or sink (circle one) the EU.

This would be much more fair, but messy way to determine membership.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:29 pm**

I wonder what percentage of the voters may have had dyslexia like me, and thought they were voting on the FU?

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:40 pm**

At an asylum centre in Spain, yesterday, allegedly (probably photoshopped)

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:58 pm**

Torchwood wrote:Farage from UKIP asked for a second referendum if the remain majority was very small (less than 3%). Well, the biter bit, it's valid the other way (it was 52-48 for leave). The simple majority bar was way too low for a massive constitutional change in an evenly divided country, Russian roulette. There is a Remain majority in Parliament, let's see if the Tory Remainers now step up to the plate. A year of mess and recession hitting the Leave areas hardest would change minds, nobody wants to lose the Scots, and hopefully the EU will be more accommodating. The latter is not inconceivable, as there is pressure for "Frexit" (france) and "Nexit" (Netherlands). A leading politician said a while ago that the only way to get the EU to change is to threaten to go - Boris Johnson our probable next PM.

Yesterday I felt very emotionally upset and it felt like (in my case) a second bereavement , my country had died, because there are cultural aspects to this (Globalisers v Middle England). This was silly and over the top. After a good night's sleep we already have how can we work round this to reunite mainly from the remain side, and Leavers saying OMG what have we done. Messy compromise is one of the better parts of our national character.

I don't think that we will actually leave, a new deal and a second referendum that Remain would win. If this gun to their heads gets the EU to change, it might even do some good. "Ever closer union" is dead after the fiascos that have been the Euro and Schengen - and it is no longer just us Brits thinking this. Manuel Valls, the most impressive centre left politician in France, stated this yesterday - because they have the Front National calling for Frexit

That is the rub. The elitist in the UK and the EU will do anything that they can to blame the fallout and even create fallout to undo this vote. That much is clear. The vote to stay was made by the young. Apparently they want to live in their parents house so they can live by their rules.

In theory I have no problem with a European Union in principle. But as it is it needed a constitution between equal states Not a monstrous, many thousands of pages, constitution, careful manipulated between would be cronies. I still remember the Italian baker that could no longer bake the bread he always had because of the EU constitution. There is no excuse for making life so hard for people just trying to make a living in the life they choose.

Honestly Europe could have adopted the pre-civil war US constitution (Minus the slavery and non universal suffrage of course) and done much better. Instead they tried to re-invent the wheel. As it is it is like the EU followed the Roman model but skipped the rise part, and went directly for the fall.

So in my view, the EU was a wonderful opportunity that was absolutely wasted. It will now turn into a series of bi-lateral agreements. Which is really what it has been all along. Except the Brussels bureaucracy will be much less influential.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:34 pm**

It's just the stages of grief, although what is being grieved beats the heck out of me. A nation gains it's independence and the nation is lost? Beam me up Scotty.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:56 pm**

In America I have a city, county, state and federal gubmint. Never in my life have I woken up and thought "what I really need is one more layer of government. Someone from Argentina needs a say in my life."

Milo says "since when did leftists care about financial markets"
I say since when did leftists care about free enterprise.
If the EU was about free enterprise then leftists would hate the EU. Free trade is when you have more government you see. The more government you have the more free the trade is you see.
Leftists froth for 8 years about sticking it to wall Street, someone sticks it to wall Street and the leftist cries for wall street. Poor poor shareholder.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:03 pm**

5XKJ2mcdVmQ

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:16 pm**

I think it is freedom, self government, self determination. All things that leftists want for say Palestinians, but not for themselves.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:20 pm**

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A petition in work for a 2nd referendum, already 2+ singed

Looks to me, Cameron decided to resign "effective OCTOBER", to give time for the people to realize what disaster UK would be in, and separation of Scotland + Northern Ireland back to Republic of Ireland (leaving England)

My guess is, the Queens will say, people now know much more of the facts of exit, therefore a 2nd referendum justified

That probably the plan.

.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:22 pm**

What happens when 2nd referendum goes exit.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:34 pm**

.

Mr. Perfect wrote:What happens when 2nd referendum goes exit.

Queen on TV, would argue this a critical occasion .. economic consequences, Scotland exit, Northern Island exit, etc .. she would say, nation must be sure and accept the consequences .. and .. order a 2nd referendum

Am pretty sure that will happen .. that is why Cameron resigning effective "October" (parliamentary system resignation always is immediate and not resign now effective in 2 quarter)

What about this petition calling for a second referendum ?

.

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