Greece

Heracleum Persicum · Post by **Heracleum Persicum** » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:16 pm

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Poor Angela

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Alexis · Post by **Alexis** » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:38 pm

Greeks have called the Eurogroup's bluff. Now European governments will have to show their hand. Are they actually ready to force Greece out of the Euro, while Greeks don't want it, using the ECB to collapse Greek financial system?

First signs:
- Italy + some key people in French government are weighing heavily for negociation. Emmanuel Macron France's minister for economics went as far as to publicly say that responsibilities for the mess are shared between Eurogroup and Greece
- The whole of Germany, including the SPD, is just as heavily in favor of ousting Greece from the eurozone, using the ECB as proxy. Poland is on that position too, as well as much of the French right. Germany's Sigmar Gabriel had shockingly strong words this evening, saying that Tsipras "is leading Greeks on a way of despair" and "has destroyed the last bridge"

Merkel and Hollande will have a "working dinner" tomorrow evening at the Elysée. I expect it to be a decisive meeting:
- With Hollande's support, Merkel will probably be able to withstand international protests and give the green light to Draghi to effect the expulsion
- Without Hollande's support, Merkel will be sorely isolated to defend forced Grexit, and then might choose to fight the uphill battle to convince German parliament to agree on resuming of negociations

By the way, does any of you have a link to a NSA server? I'd like to have a complete verbatim of what will be said at this dinner tomorrow evening, you know...

Anyway, now that Greece has swallowed the red pill, we will stay in Wonderland stay, and be showned how deep the rabbit hole goes...

Endovelico · Post by **Endovelico** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:06 am

The Greeks just invented democracy for the second time...

noddy · Post by **noddy** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:56 am

when you have a beef with europe.

noddy · Post by **noddy** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:27 am

the more i read about greece the more it seems obvious they need to default on all their debt and start again with their own currency.

Typhoon · Post by **Typhoon** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:30 am

noddy wrote:

when you have a beef with europe.

+1

Simple Minded · Post by **Simple Minded** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:01 pm

noddy wrote:

when you have a beef with europe.

capitalism to the rescue....

Simple Minded · Post by **Simple Minded** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:09 pm

Endovelico wrote:

The Greeks just invented democracy for the second time...

Hopefully it will work out better for them this time around.

The small group that believes in Democracy joins a much larger group not realizing that their voting powers will be diluted and their ability to self-govern diminished?

Remember when Greeks were also good at math?

"The state is the great fiction by which everyone can live at the expense of someone else." Bastiat

Now, hopefully the interesting votes can occur and things can get straightened out.

For Greece:
1. Dump the euro or not.
2. Abandon the EU or not.

For the EU:
1. Send Greece more euros or not.
2. Kick them out of the EU or not.

Sometimes, marriages just don't work out & they need to end.

YMix · Post by **YMix** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:13 pm

Some thoughts as I'm munching on a bit of marinated herring and tzatziki:

The situation in the European Union resembles a bit the situation in Ukraine in the sense that the central power has taken hostile action against a smaller member which fought back. A line has been crossed and time will tell if we can put this behind us. It's not unexpected that the people in Brussels (and Berlin) should think that the EU has to fight the centrifugal forces or perish. But they should have at least remembered the old saying "noblesse oblige", two words that speak of a number of dead nobles and a bigger number of angry peasants.

The Juncker-Schäuble-Merkel-Dijsselbloem crowd appears to me like a stern father swinging the belt at the wastrel son shouting: "I'm doing this for your own good!" Quite understandably, the son has a different opinion. He doesn't seem averse to learning the ways of thrift (within reason), but he draws the line at beatings.

Simple Minded · Post by **Simple Minded** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:07 pm

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be." Ben Franklin

Good life lesson: Never borrow money from someone who is willing to break your legs to make you an example. Never lend more money than you are willing to cheerfully loose.

Endovelico · Post by **Endovelico** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:44 pm

Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’ summary comments at the European Parliament
July 8, 2015

This meeting should have taken place a long time ago. Because the debate we are having today is not just about Greece’s future, it’s about the future of the Eurozone. And indeed, we cannot have this debate behind closed doors. We do not bear responsibility for this.

For five months, the negotiation has taken place behind closed doors. Yet, how it will it proceed–and how it will end–are highly political issues. We realized this today during the course of the very fruitful discussion we’ve had. And during the course of what has been debated between Eurozone member states–without confrontation, but with political and ideological richness. And I sincerely respect all opinions heard, even those that were highly polemic in their rhetoric.

I’d like to say that I’m in agreement with the views voiced that the European Parliament should play a more active role. The Parliament could indeed have empowered the three institutions–the Troika–certainly the Commission and the European Central Bank, that handles funding; instead, Troika decisions have been driven by the IMF rather than the pre-eminent European institution of democracy, the European Parliament.

I would like to say in all honesty: had the discussion and negotiation of this European affair been conducted exclusively between the Greek side and the Commission, a solution and an agreement would have been achieved a long time ago.

For better or worse, we had to conduct a negotiation – please listen to the arguments first, and then you can take the floor to rebut them – being obliged to speak with the members of the Greek government and with the three different institutions, which oftentimes had different and conflicting positions and proposals. This is the stark reality of the situation.

I want to be direct, and respond to some of the issues raised during our discussion. To begin with, there appears to be a question regarding whether the Greek side has submitted credible proposals, something that you can judge for yourselves. The Greek side has submitted proposals–it submitted a 47-page document – not of our positions – but of those that resulted from the difficult and arduous negotiation process. Unfortunately, what is being intimated is that the Greek side has not submitted proposals.

Last Monday, the Greek side offered a new document with credible proposals, which was accepted as a basis for discussion by all three institutions. Last Monday. In these proposals, we committed to achieve the budgetary targets required by the Eurozone, because we recognize and respect that the Eurozone has rules. However, we reserve the right to decide–for us to choose as a sovereign government—how to allocate the tax burdens to achieve the required fiscal targets.

I truly believe that it is the sovereign right of a government to choose to raise taxes on profitable business instead of cutting the allowance of the lowest-tier pensions, the EKAS, to achieve budgetary targets. If a sovereign government does not have the right to choose equivalent measures to achieve the required targets, then we are adopting an extreme and undemocratic approach, where countries subject to a program should not hold elections, and governments should instead be appointed, technocrats should be appointed and they should be responsible for all decisions.

I would like to inform the Parliament that indeed, you are right that there are distortions in Greece that should be eliminated, such as early pensions. We took the initiative, without anyone telling us to do so, to state that we want to abolish early retirement in a country that is in such a dire financial position.

Reforms, therefore, are necessary, and our commitment to necessary fiscal adjustment—so that we can have surpluses and not deficits—this commitment is a given. We reserve the right, however, to choose how to redistribute the burdens, which is something I believe we should be able to do, and I am certain that most of you will agree with me on this point.

Honorable Members of Parliament, the following question was posed during our discussions today: “Do you have a secret plan for Greece to leave the Eurozone?” Let me begin by noting that during the previous week, the vast majority of European politicians and officials made statements saying that a ‘NO’ vote automatically meant a Greek exit from the euro. The Greek people were aware of this when they were asked to vote, when they went to the polls. And they nevertheless produced a result that surprised some. So, my honest answer is–If my intention was for Greece to leave the euro, I would not have made the statements that I did, and interpret the outcome of the referendum–not as a mandate to break with Europe, but as a mandate to strengthen the negotiating effort to reach a better deal–immediately after the polls closed. A more credible agreement. A financially sustainable and socially just agreement. This is the objective. I have no other hidden agenda. I’ve laid my cards on the table.

Finally, I would like to address the comments made, especially by those who used the strongest rhetoric, a polemic rhetoric, about our inability to respond to the solidarity of the European partners. Certainly, lending is certainly a form of solidarity. There is no doubt about it. But we want a sustainable program, exactly because we want to be able to pay back what we have borrowed. And when we ask for debt reduction, we ask for this reduction exactly because we want to be able to make good on those loans and not to be constantly obliged to seek new loans in order to repay previous loans.

And I want to remind you, Mr. Weber that the strongest example of solidarity in modern European history occurred in 1953 when your country was indebted and looted following two world wars, and Europe and the European people demonstrated exceptional solidarity at the London Summit in 1953. When they decided to write off 60% of Germany’s debt and they included a growth clause. This was the most important moment of solidarity in modern European history.

I heard my friend Guy Verhofstadt – last year we were fellow candidates for the Presidency of the European Commission and we know each other well and are friendly – wondering “how will you face them, with what reforms, you did not propose reforms, what have you done”? I would like to answer: Indeed during these five months we have been negotiating more than we have been governing. Given the financial asphyxiation–our priority, our concern, our thought is how will we manage to keep the Greek economy afloat. However, we have accomplished quite a bit, my dear friend Guy.

We were the ones, after three years, who took the notorious Lagarde list head on, the list that some Ministers from the previous governments had shoved in back of their desk drawers.

And we were the ones who tried, and brought to justice, many of those who had evaded paying taxes. The previous governments did no such thing.

We were the ones that made an agreement with Switzerland to compel Greeks who sent their money abroad to pay taxes.

We were the ones who established a law limiting triangular trades. No previous government had done so.

We were the ones who asked media owners to pay their taxes. No previous government had done so.

We were the ones who strengthened customs controls, in order to tackle smuggling.

Of course, we are obliged—and plan–to do much more. We have not had the time to do much. And we ask for your support to change Greece. It is our common responsibility to change Greece, and we will be judged on this.

In closing, I want say we all realize that our discussion is not exclusively about one country. It does not exclusively concern one country. It is about the future of the Eurozone and Europe. And here, two diametrically opposed strategies about the future of European integration clash. Let’s all assume our responsibilities.

The Greek government – and I want to highlight this – despite the ideological differences, despite issues that divide us within the country – at a critical moment for our nation, was able to unite. Yesterday, all the leaders of the political parties met with the President of the Republic; they were at the same table, and we agreed on a framework for our positions. Based on this framework, tomorrow we will once again submit concrete proposals for a sustainable and fair agreement, reform proposals, credible reforms.

Finally, however, I would like to close with the following: Many of you have referred to ancient Greek tragedy. I fully respect the laws governing the EU and the Eurozone. Without laws no one can move forward. But since you referred to ancient Greek tragedy, let me inform you that one of the most important ancient playwrights, Sophocles, in his masterpiece “Antigone”, taught us that there are times when the supreme law, which is even superior to the laws of people, is justice. And I think that now, is exactly such a time.

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/0 ... ment-i-ii/

Tsipras is indeed a lot smarter, more civilized and more "adult" than most of his critics. He had to hear a lot of gross comments on him, on Greece and on the Greek people, and he managed to stay polite and to the point. Indeed, two and a half thousand years of culture and civilization make quite a difference. The barbarians on the other side, barely out of their caves, were not up to the task...

Well done, Tsipras!...

Heracleum Persicum · Post by **Heracleum Persicum** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:03 pm

P84tN0z4jqM

Heracleum Persicum · Post by **Heracleum Persicum** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:46 am

.

Greece's finance minister at London Conference of 1953 signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt

: CJEG87iXAAAA_Pf.jpg (31.48 KiB) Viewed 1112 times

Angela, sit down, and pay

.

Heracleum Persicum · Post by **Heracleum Persicum** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:58 am

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https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status ... 1430625280

Greece and others now find themselves in the wrong currency.
There is a new Berlin Wall and it's called the Euro.

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Heracleum Persicum · Post by **Heracleum Persicum** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:42 pm

jH5Yv7iwfhs

noddy · Post by **noddy** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:20 am

YMix wrote:Some thoughts as I'm munching on a bit of marinated herring and tzatziki:

eww steenky fish, not even the yoghurt dip can save it.

YMix wrote:
The situation in the European Union resembles a bit the situation in Ukraine in the sense that the central power has taken hostile action against a smaller member which fought back. A line has been crossed and time will tell if we can put this behind us. It's not unexpected that the people in Brussels (and Berlin) should think that the EU has to fight the centrifugal forces or perish. But they should have at least remembered the old saying "noblesse oblige", two words that speak of a number of dead nobles and a bigger number of angry peasants.

The Juncker-Schäuble-Merkel-Dijsselbloem crowd appears to me like a stern father swinging the belt at the wastrel son shouting: "I'm doing this for your own good!" Quite understandably, the son has a different opinion. He doesn't seem averse to learning the ways of thrift (within reason), but he draws the line at beatings.

i think the chinese saying “Kill the chicken to scare the monkey” captures it properly.

greece is the disposable chicken, spain,italy and france are the monkeys watching the show.

noddy · Post by **noddy** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:36 am

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/07 ... -gunfight/

Yanis appears to have assumed that he could grasp the European light on the hill and persuade with elegant reason all of Europe to embrace enlightened super-national consciousness. He’s been genteelly sipping lattes at a gunfight and by doing so has played right into realist German hands by destroying his country’s economy as an example to all other European ‘dead beats’.

There is nothing new here. Yanis has simply been outplayed. When it was elected, Syriza either had to sign up to new terms of austerity or immediately leave the euro. It’s stylish five month congress with Europe has ruined its economy to no purpose of its own given it will either now buckle under to even deeper austerity or will still be forced out of the euro, taking its economy from wrecked to destroyed. By misreading power politics from the outset, Syriza has allowed Greece to be turned into an open-necked sacrificial goat gutted to keep the rest of Europe bowed to German will. That Yanis can see it now changes nothing for the forgotten Greek national interest.

game theory meets golden rule.

YMix · Post by **YMix** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:51 am

noddy wrote:eww steenky fish, not even the yoghurt dip can save it.

Delicious fish.

i think the chinese saying “Kill the chicken to scare the monkey” captures it properly.

greece is the disposable chicken, spain,italy and france are the monkeys watching the show.

Pretty much.

YMix · Post by **YMix** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:19 am

noddy wrote:http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/07 ... -gunfight/

Yanis appears to have assumed that he could grasp the European light on the hill and persuade with elegant reason all of Europe to embrace enlightened super-national consciousness. He’s been genteelly sipping lattes at a gunfight and by doing so has played right into realist German hands by destroying his country’s economy as an example to all other European ‘dead beats’.

There is nothing new here. Yanis has simply been outplayed. When it was elected, Syriza either had to sign up to new terms of austerity or immediately leave the euro. It’s stylish five month congress with Europe has ruined its economy to no purpose of its own given it will either now buckle under to even deeper austerity or will still be forced out of the euro, taking its economy from wrecked to destroyed. By misreading power politics from the outset, Syriza has allowed Greece to be turned into an open-necked sacrificial goat gutted to keep the rest of Europe bowed to German will. That Yanis can see it now changes nothing for the forgotten Greek national interest.
game theory meets golden rule.

I read the whole article and disagree with one thing:

The euro and Europe are irrelevant to German real politik. They are in it for the Germans.

Since the living standard of the average German is not improving, the German government is quite obviously not in it for the Germans.

noddy · Post by **noddy** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:33 am

Since the living standard of the average German is not improving, the German government is quite obviously not in it for the Germans.

well maybe.

the world is in recession, everywhere is dropping - the germans understand that avoiding massive debt and keeping it at maintainable debt requires lower short term living standards - provided they generally remain decent.

the problem comes from explaining to the german workers why they have to drop living standards plus support greece, thats when the nationalism cuts in.

YMix · Post by **YMix** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:15 pm

Tsipras should resign at this point. Either that or lead the country out of the Eurozone.

Nonc Hilaire · Post by **Nonc Hilaire** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:40 am

YMix wrote:Tsipras should resign at this point. Either that or lead the country out of the Eurozone.

My guess is Gemany made him an offer he could not refuse.

YMix · Post by **YMix** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:47 am

Probably, but he should've gone to the people and said: "Sorry, folks, I thought I could do better, but I failed. Now, you can reject these terms and we leave the Eurozone or you can accept them and I resign."

YMix · Post by **YMix** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:23 am

Analysis: Robert Peston, BBC News, Economics editor

Why on earth should Greek MPs vote for a painful economic reform package which the IMF - the supposed global arbiter of these things - does not believe will put the country back on the path to prosperity?

The eurozone creditors, and Germany in particular, forced Alexis Tsipras - against his strong preference - to accept IMF participation in the next formal bailout package to be negotiated if Greek MPs pass the initial reform measures tonight.

They told him, in effect, he would be turfed out of the eurozone and into national ruin unless he took more of the IMF's money and fiscal bossiness.

Which also look tragically comic tonight - with the IMF saying that if it's all the same to Mrs Merkel, it would rather not touch Greece with a barge pole.

Or to be tediously literal, the IMF has made it clear that it does not wish to participate in any further Greek bailout, unless Germany and the rest drop their vehement opposition to big write-offs of Greek debt.

Which should be music to the ears of Mr Tsipras, except that presumably he would quite like his creditors to agree among themselves, before presuming to tell him how to run his own shop.

Simple Minded · Post by **Simple Minded** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:22 am

YMix wrote:Probably, but he should've gone to the people and said: "Sorry, folks, I thought I could do better, but I failed. Now, you can reject these terms and we leave the Eurozone or you can accept them and I resign."

YMix,

That would be extremely rare & refreshing to see & hear a politician speak clearly and plainly to the people..... as if the people were adults capable of thinking for themselves & controlling their own common destiny.

"Dear people of Greece,

Years ago, for whatever reason, we hitched our wagon to horses that were too strong for us to control. I thought I could get the horses under control. I was wrong. It is time for us as adults to either shut up and go wherever the horses want to take us, or to jump out of the wagon. It is your country, it is your choice. I hereby resign for making promises to you that I could not fulfill."

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