Evolution
Re: Evolution
finally though, after all these years a penny has dropped on why this argument has always seemed so odd and pointless.
the new atheist position, the aggressive materialist one, is a reactionary position to an absurd question, all idiocy follows from that.
its like satanism, only makes sense in the context of robust christianity, the moment you lose that context and the binary question of belief in that context, it disappears into nothing and makes no sense.
so, no - this is not an argument between materialism and god, that position is a false binary position created in the evangelical argument of taking a stance on if you believe or dont believe.
in my world, non believers dont even accept the question, so that answer is always gibberish.
we dont know about infinity, we dont know about life after death, we dont know about the beginning?creation? of the universe, their is no position to take, all positions are intellectually lacking in any coherent platform.
evolution is a cute theory based on what we do know, it might not be much, its full of flaws, but its all we got, the rest arent even in the ballpark and playing the same game.
the new atheist position, the aggressive materialist one, is a reactionary position to an absurd question, all idiocy follows from that.
its like satanism, only makes sense in the context of robust christianity, the moment you lose that context and the binary question of belief in that context, it disappears into nothing and makes no sense.
so, no - this is not an argument between materialism and god, that position is a false binary position created in the evangelical argument of taking a stance on if you believe or dont believe.
in my world, non believers dont even accept the question, so that answer is always gibberish.
we dont know about infinity, we dont know about life after death, we dont know about the beginning?creation? of the universe, their is no position to take, all positions are intellectually lacking in any coherent platform.
evolution is a cute theory based on what we do know, it might not be much, its full of flaws, but its all we got, the rest arent even in the ballpark and playing the same game.
ultracrepidarian
Re: Evolution
The whole point of faith/belief seems to me that it concerns itself with unknowns; known- and unknown unknowns. I don't think that when more is known scientifically, the amount of unknown is proportionally shrinking. So far every scientific answer begs for more interesting questions. I would baptise God being The Infinitely Unknown. The Forever Receding Event Horizon. To have some faith in the infinite unknown seems a good thing though; we don't know the bottom-line anyways so there is a degree of freedom. With or without better understood evolution-creation, which is irrelevant.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Re: Evolution
yeh, thats a better way of putting it.Parodite wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:10 pm The whole point of faith/belief seems to me that it concerns itself with unknowns; known- and unknown unknowns. I don't think that when more is known scientifically, the amount of unknown is proportionally shrinking. So far every scientific answer begs for more interesting questions. I would baptise God being The Infinitely Unknown. The Forever Receding Event Horizon. To have some faith in the infinite unknown seems a good thing though; we don't know the bottom-line anyways so there is a degree of freedom. With or without better understood evolution-creation, which is irrelevant.
the turtles havent got anywhere, their is no danger to the infinite.
ultracrepidarian
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Re: Evolution
Faith is based on the liminal realisation that our concept of reality is illusory. Because our consciousness is embodied, it has a point of view and that's a curse as far as the acquisition of absolute truth is concerned. Enlightened physicalism is the current state of ontological monism we associate with science..... and that may crumble soon....'>........
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
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Re: Evolution
"Faith" if you mean religion has far more to do with the meaning and purpose of life than creation. The Bible for example is about 1000 pages in the old Book format, and the creation parts sum up to a few pages. Similar with other religions.Parodite wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:10 pm The whole point of faith/belief seems to me that it concerns itself with unknowns; known- and unknown unknowns. I don't think that when more is known scientifically, the amount of unknown is proportionally shrinking. So far every scientific answer begs for more interesting questions. I would baptise God being The Infinitely Unknown. The Forever Receding Event Horizon. To have some faith in the infinite unknown seems a good thing though; we don't know the bottom-line anyways so there is a degree of freedom. With or without better understood evolution-creation, which is irrelevant.
However seculars trying to throw off religion have gone for the girders, in the first few pages it says God made everything, there are 2 genders and the opposite genders are intended to marry. So instead of taking the whole bridge apart piece at a time the seculars figured out to target those 3 things and let it crash.
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Re: Evolution
nMKziOGkQTwMr. Perfect wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:11 am "Faith" if you mean religion has far more to do with the meaning and purpose of life than creation. The Bible for example is about 1000 pages in the old Book format, and the creation parts sum up to a few pages. Similar with other religions.
However seculars trying to throw off religion have gone for the girders, in the first few pages it says God made everything, there are 2 genders and the opposite genders are intended to marry. So instead of taking the whole bridge apart piece at a time the seculars figured out to target those 3 things and let it crash.
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
Re: Evolution
you make it sound like a return to proper morality (tm) over materialist scientific reductionism would be a win for your team.
i say it would be full steam ahead on progressive emotional humanism, team traditional christian isnt even on the radar.
evolution would be an irrelevant side piece.
i say it would be full steam ahead on progressive emotional humanism, team traditional christian isnt even on the radar.
evolution would be an irrelevant side piece.
ultracrepidarian
Re: Evolution
While pointless, that's what makes the discussion fun. Much like looking at cloud formations.
Humans can't perceive infinity.
Imagine an infinite inkblot!
What does it look like to you?
How do I step outside my selfish human perception? With my imagination!
Humans can't perceive infinity.
Imagine an infinite inkblot!
What does it look like to you?
How do I step outside my selfish human perception? With my imagination!
Re: Evolution
It would be tribalism writ large. Until, of course, everyone got on the same page..... of the same Holy Book.
As log as the conversation is with words, rather than conversion via sword, no harm, no foul.
Examine observations as they come in and modify the overall theory to accommodate the new observations seems more likely to be peaceful. Leave your pride at the door please.
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Re: Evolution
It's not mutually exclusive, Christians invented science and discovered most of it.noddy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:12 am you make it sound like a return to proper morality (tm) over materialist scientific reductionism would be a win for your team.
i say it would be full steam ahead on progressive emotional humanism, team traditional christian isnt even on the radar.
evolution would be an irrelevant side piece.
A return to morality would benefit everyone.
Christianity is the largest world religion.
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Re: Evolution
Also the basis for hoarding and having too many tabs open.Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:28 amnMKziOGkQTwMr. Perfect wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:11 am "Faith" if you mean religion has far more to do with the meaning and purpose of life than creation. The Bible for example is about 1000 pages in the old Book format, and the creation parts sum up to a few pages. Similar with other religions.
However seculars trying to throw off religion have gone for the girders, in the first few pages it says God made everything, there are 2 genders and the opposite genders are intended to marry. So instead of taking the whole bridge apart piece at a time the seculars figured out to target those 3 things and let it crash.
However, it's too kind. The secular left is intent on destroying the human race itself, there is no reason to beat around the Bush. The Bible said to multiply and replenish the Earth, and the secular left again is doing the opposite.
In their narrative Humans are at odd with nature itself, must stop breathing, must stop breeding, and they are successful with this in the West for some time now. Our only hope is to segment them, let them die off and we can start again with a more human population.
gn9hZIS54aI
The Democrats are tearing the fences down in a blind rage, questioning nothing. Which then goes into self destruction and the roots of that. The roots of that are Satan, not the pentagram one but the actual one. Satan above all else wishes humanity would destroy itself.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution
There are fouls a plenty. You guys are looking in the wrong direction.Simple Minded wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:34 pmIt would be tribalism writ large. Until, of course, everyone got on the same page..... of the same Holy Book.
As log as the conversation is with words, rather than conversion via sword, no harm, no foul.
VlxzD7PTCa8
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Re: Evolution
most of my family are religious, spent my entire childhood in religious schools, done all the training.
catholic, protestant and evangelical, spent quality time in all of em, years of bible training classes.
all i can gather is some people use their moral structures to come up with reasons to be decent others come up with excuses to be horrid.
ive not noticed particularly that any one religion or secular philosophy has a monopoly on either.
Last edited by noddy on Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
ultracrepidarian
Re: Evolution
good point - its important to remember why we started on a project of working with material evidence and excluding all the faith based and philosophy based evidence.Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:28 amnMKziOGkQTwMr. Perfect wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:11 am "Faith" if you mean religion has far more to do with the meaning and purpose of life than creation. The Bible for example is about 1000 pages in the old Book format, and the creation parts sum up to a few pages. Similar with other religions.
However seculars trying to throw off religion have gone for the girders, in the first few pages it says God made everything, there are 2 genders and the opposite genders are intended to marry. So instead of taking the whole bridge apart piece at a time the seculars figured out to target those 3 things and let it crash.
cant get two people from the same religion to agree on the details, it gets absurd fast when you start bringing in multicultural viewpoints.
ultracrepidarian
Re: Evolution
only you could believe they will return to cowboy christianity - they hate that with a passion.Mr. Perfect wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:53 pmIt's not mutually exclusive, Christians invented science and discovered most of it.noddy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:12 am you make it sound like a return to proper morality (tm) over materialist scientific reductionism would be a win for your team.
i say it would be full steam ahead on progressive emotional humanism, team traditional christian isnt even on the radar.
evolution would be an irrelevant side piece.
A return to morality would benefit everyone.
Christianity is the largest world religion.
they will return to progressive veganist humanism as the basis for all morality.
best off wishing for materialism, it will leave you cracks to exist in.
ultracrepidarian
Re: Evolution
Mr. Perfect wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:19 pmThere are fouls a plenty. You guys are looking in the wrong direction.Simple Minded wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:34 pmIt would be tribalism writ large. Until, of course, everyone got on the same page..... of the same Holy Book.
As log as the conversation is with words, rather than conversion via sword, no harm, no foul.
VlxzD7PTCa8
need to stand on one leg, with one eye closed and put your fingers in your ears to make this narrative work.
ultracrepidarian
Re: Evolution
poorly expressed on a grumpy day.NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:35 amI don't know about that.noddy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:28 amexactly.
this is only a problem for some flavours of religion, a god that recedes - with science its the ho hum status quo, every answer triggers another question.
the gaps are builtin for science, philosophical concerns with those gaps is a different subject all together.
ultracrepidarian
Re: Evolution
well said. parallels my own experience. "Religion" (capital R business) seems to make some people worse, "religion" (lower case r personal) can be a discipline some individuals use to become better people. proselytizers tend to belong to the former group more than the later.noddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:22 ammost of my family are religious, spent my entire childhood in religious schools, done all the training.
catholic, protestant and evangelical, spent quality time in all of em, years of bible training classes.
all i can gather is some people use their moral structures to come up with reasons to be decent others come up with excuses to be horrid.
ive not noticed particularly that any one religion or secular philosophy has a monopoly on either.
"Jesus" is a positive influence for some, and a license to be as nasty as they want for others.
Walk down a street with 10 households practicing 5 different religions, and the people who will tell you that their religion is the only valid religion are often the most obnoxious, disagreeable, and hatful people of the bunch.
Especially when the only reason they can give you for belonging to that religion is that they were born into a family that practices that religion.
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Re: Evolution
Quite a bit of projection in there.Simple Minded wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:15 pm
well said. parallels my own experience. "Religion" (capital R business) seems to make some people worse, "religion" (lower case r personal) can be a discipline some individuals use to become better people. proselytizers tend to belong to the former group more than the later.
"Jesus" is a positive influence for some, and a license to be as nasty as they want for others.
Walk down a street with 10 households practicing 5 different religions, and the people who will tell you that their religion is the only valid religion are often the most obnoxious, disagreeable, and hatful people of the bunch.
Especially when the only reason they can give you for belonging to that religion is that they were born into a family that practices that religion.
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Re: Evolution
Who is they.
How so.best off wishing for materialism, it will leave you cracks to exist in.
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Re: Evolution
they being the new progressives - which you think of as the problems of secular, and i think of as an evangelical cultMr. Perfect wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:25 pmWho is they.
How so.best off wishing for materialism, it will leave you cracks to exist in.
to my mind they they are the next step of protestantism - not only have the discarded the priesthood and act as their own popes, they are also their own jesus - directly comparing and competing with traditional christianity as the moral centre of society.
its completely different to the atheism in my country, because the dominant christianity in my country was quieter, so its all much more toned down.
secular materialism is neither here nor there on all that - these things happen within the context of the local culture and what is being reacted too.
the cracks are capitalism.
ultracrepidarian
Re: Evolution
trying to pin down the problem of millions of disenfranchised blacks and young whites on modern politics without using your other eyeball to look at how previous politics might have created this issue.
ill give you a clue - my country is massively secular in comparison to yours and we dont have any of this going on.
ultracrepidarian
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Re: Evolution
We don't have any disenfranchised people in America. Young whites and non whites own the media culture and are pandered to constantly. During the riots corporations gave them permission to sack their property.
I don't know what that has to do with anything.ill give you a clue - my country is massively secular in comparison to yours and we dont have any of this going on.
Looks like you found a large jug of kool aid.
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