On the Nature of Things | Forum

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:29 am**

noddy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:11 am they being the new progressives - which you think of as the problems of secular, and i think of as an evangelical cult

Except they are secular. There is nothing new about anything they are doing or saying. They are the children of old parents.

to my mind they they are the next step of protestantism - not only have the discarded the priesthood and act as their own popes, they are also their own jesus - directly comparing and competing with traditional christianity as the moral centre of society.

This is totally imaginary.

its completely different to the atheism in my country, because the dominant christianity in my country was quieter, so its all much more toned down.

You are being overrun by Chinese.

secular materialism is neither here nor there on all that - these things happen within the context of the local culture and what is being reacted too.

the cracks are capitalism.

Capitalism is how people eat. Capitalism isn't going anywhere.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:30 am**

noddy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:14 am
Mr. Perfect wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:21 pm
noddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:36 am need to stand on one leg, with one eye closed and put your fingers in your ears to make this narrative work.
How so.
trying to pin down the problem of millions of disenfranchised blacks and young whites on modern politics without using your other eyeball to look at how previous politics might have created this issue.

ill give you a clue - my country is massively secular in comparison to yours and we dont have any of this going on.

I have the feeling that your country doesn't have nearly as many degrees in the "social scientists"

BTW Do teachers in Australia have Unions?

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:15 am**

Doc wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:30 am
noddy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:14 am
Mr. Perfect wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:21 pm
noddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:36 am need to stand on one leg, with one eye closed and put your fingers in your ears to make this narrative work.
How so.
trying to pin down the problem of millions of disenfranchised blacks and young whites on modern politics without using your other eyeball to look at how previous politics might have created this issue.

ill give you a clue - my country is massively secular in comparison to yours and we dont have any of this going on.
I have the feeling that your country doesn't have nearly as many degrees in the "social scientists"

they exist but employment oppurtunities are bleak.

you can find them on social media, whining about this and that.

Doc wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:30 am BTW Do teachers in Australia have Unions?

australia is 10 steps ahead of america on the entitled parasite games - you fight them, we make them into irrelevant institutions.

I once worked for a company for 3 years before learning i was a member of a union - the company paid my fees and even attended the meetings for me.

you just need to work with the fact they are parasites , the rest follows easily from there.

i wish i was being sarcastic.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:18 am**

Mr. Perfect wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:29 am
noddy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:11 am they being the new progressives - which you think of as the problems of secular, and i think of as an evangelical cult
Except they are secular. There is nothing new about anything they are doing or saying. They are the children of old parents.

to my mind they they are the next step of protestantism - not only have the discarded the priesthood and act as their own popes, they are also their own jesus - directly comparing and competing with traditional christianity as the moral centre of society.
This is totally imaginary.

probably, but less imaginary than your viewpoint, so its all baby steps really.

Mr. Perfect wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:29 am
its completely different to the atheism in my country, because the dominant christianity in my country was quieter, so its all much more toned down.
You are being overrun by Chinese.

wow.

you really are addicted to hysterical youtube videos.

a brief glance at easily available immigration data would reassure you that if you are the type of person who is scared of east asians, then america is just as scary as australia.

personally, ive found expat chinese to be excellent culturally adjacent types - family and capitalism first, id happily swap angry white lefties for them all day every day.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:35 pm**

noddy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:18 am
personally, ive found expat chinese to be excellent culturally adjacent types - family and capitalism first, id happily swap angry white lefties for them all day every day.

Same here with Mexicans, or most legal immigrants. They came here to enjoy the traits of American that many American whine aren't pure enough to sooth their sensibilities.

I worked in a plant where dozens of languages were spoke, and a lot of the workers, enough if they were in America for decades, barely spoke enough English to get by. Yet, they were great co-workers and easy to get along with.

Of course, that was the pre-Internet days...... WHOA! EPIPHANY!

We used to have a Yellow Scare in Merika:

5I_Owg0V71Y

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:01 pm**

Simple Minded wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:35 pm
noddy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:18 am
personally, ive found expat chinese to be excellent culturally adjacent types - family and capitalism first, id happily swap angry white lefties for them all day every day.
Same here with Mexicans, or most legal immigrants. They came here to enjoy the traits of American that many American whine aren't pure enough to sooth their sensibilities.

I worked in a plant where dozens of languages were spoke, and a lot of the workers, enough if they were in America for decades, barely spoke enough English to get by. Yet, they were great co-workers and easy to get along with.

Of course, that was the pre-Internet days...... WHOA! EPIPHANY!

We used to have a Yellow Scare in Merika:

5I_Owg0V71Y

It came from outer space...

Long long ago on a planet far far away.....
iily9_GF564

For purests:

hRguZr0xCOc

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:32 am**

noddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:57 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:35 am
noddy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:28 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:08 am
noddy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:25 am so it opens the question of panspermia or other such things.
Science of the gaps
exactly.

this is only a problem for some flavours of religion, a god that recedes - with science its the ho hum status quo, every answer triggers another question.
I don't know about that.
poorly expressed on a grumpy day.

the gaps are builtin for science, philosophical concerns with those gaps is a different subject all together.

Now we're goin' from science of the gaps to the philosophy of the absent...or is that the absence of philosophy in the science of the gaps all within a god-shaped hole?

===========

I haven't caught up with the thread yet but to reiterate with a little bit of seriousness, I'm not bringing divinity into it; yet the counter-argument, if one is to be made, does start with a discussing language difficulties.

When we talk about item X, all we are discussing is language and language agreements.

One would then argue the biological answer founders because it doesn't pass the test between being a language common to all and a language shared by some-- the latter being very much the mark of language games. As a contrast of fields, physics and chemistry and mathematics do not (often) run into these problems-- and the argument would need to demonstrate how they are languages common to all.

The extreme skepticism that anything is actually being said, that these birdsongs amount to something one needs to listen to, doesn't lessen when the arguments are to fold within themselves on appeals to utility; regulative principles; consensus within a group; and the mystification and romance of the profession.

Traveling to the origins of this biological soup of...err...biology...the controversy among the educated opposition to those radical materialists and their transmutation of species was instructive because of what it says about language.

Preservation, species itself, the immortality of flora and fauna...all grammatical points.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:35 pm**

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:32 am
Now we're goin' from science of the gaps to the philosophy of the absent...or is that the absence of philosophy in the science of the gaps all within a god-shaped hole?

===========

I think the internet has enabled us to evolve past evolution. We are in the post-evolutionary phase of science and in the revolutionary phase of religion/philosophy.

It's. no longer Virtual Fred saying "I believe X." With Virtual Joe saying "X is invalid!"
It's virtual Fred saying "I had a ham and cheese on rye sandwich for lunch yesterday!" To which Virtual Joe replies "No you didn't! Liar!"

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:32 am
I haven't caught up with the thread yet but to reiterate with a little bit of seriousness, I'm not bringing divinity into it; yet the counter-argument, if one is to be made, does start with a discussing language difficulties.

When we talk about item X, all we are discussing is language and language agreements.

One would then argue the biological answer founders because it doesn't pass the test between being a language common to all and a language shared by some-- the latter being very much the mark of language games. As a contrast of fields, physics and chemistry and mathematics do not (often) run into these problems-- and the argument would need to demonstrate how they are languages common to all.

The extreme skepticism that anything is actually being said, that these birdsongs amount to something one needs to listen to, doesn't lessen when the arguments are to fold within themselves on appeals to utility; regulative principles; consensus within a group; and the mystification and romance of the profession.

Traveling to the origins of this biological soup of...err...biology...the controversy among the educated opposition to those radical materialists and their transmutation of species was instructive because of what it says about language.

Preservation, species itself, the immortality of flora and fauna...all grammatical points.

Well defined Language as a means of communicating? WTF?
Only Racists don't believe in universal diversity! (tm)

excuse me garcon, is the soup du jour, veagan biological soup of biology?

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:46 pm**

Well-defined is a dead-end.

It's not about finding a core meaning; it's about the use of referents: how are they used?

"We don't have time to get into that," or "it's more a guidepost to fix the mind than anything with content" are red-flags about what is being confirmed.

It's. no longer Virtual Fred saying "I believe X."

When suave politeness, tempering bigoted zeal corrected, "I believe" to "one does feel".

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:23 pm**

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:46 pm Well-defined is a dead-end.

It's not about finding a core meaning; it's about the use of referents: how are they used?

now were getting somewhere, not only does Virtual Joe not revere Virtual Fred's referents, he also finds them irrelevant.....

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:37 pm**

Mr. Perfect wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:21 pm
Colonel Sun wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:26 am might have
Lol you do this in almost every other post.

Popular speculations about how life evolved out of a soup of chemicals on the early Earth often focus on the origins of DNA and RNA, the molecules of genetic information. But the genesis of genes is only one of the mysteries that origin-of-life theories must reckon with. Another is the rise of metabolism — the biochemical processes inside cells that make life possible by continuously drawing energy from the environment and directing it into the assembly of vital molecules. It’s a complex problem on which there has been little headway.
You could say no headway.

Here is why.

1:23:48 it's not possible

ADiql3FG5is

As I'm familiar with QM and somewhat familiar with QM biology, would you list the specific time points that you believe supports your assertion.
The introduction was cringe inducing beyond words.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:22 am**

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:32 am
noddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:57 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:35 am
noddy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:28 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:08 am
noddy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:25 am so it opens the question of panspermia or other such things.
Science of the gaps
exactly.

this is only a problem for some flavours of religion, a god that recedes - with science its the ho hum status quo, every answer triggers another question.
I don't know about that.
poorly expressed on a grumpy day.

the gaps are builtin for science, philosophical concerns with those gaps is a different subject all together.
Now we're goin' from science of the gaps to the philosophy of the absent...or is that the absence of philosophy in the science of the gaps all within a god-shaped hole?

===========

I haven't caught up with the thread yet but to reiterate with a little bit of seriousness, I'm not bringing divinity into it; yet the counter-argument, if one is to be made, does start with a discussing language difficulties.

When we talk about item X, all we are discussing is language and language agreements.

One would then argue the biological answer founders because it doesn't pass the test between being a language common to all and a language shared by some-- the latter being very much the mark of language games. As a contrast of fields, physics and chemistry and mathematics do not (often) run into these problems-- and the argument would need to demonstrate how they are languages common to all.

The extreme skepticism that anything is actually being said, that these birdsongs amount to something one needs to listen to, doesn't lessen when the arguments are to fold within themselves on appeals to utility; regulative principles; consensus within a group; and the mystification and romance of the profession.

Traveling to the origins of this biological soup of...err...biology...the controversy among the educated opposition to those radical materialists and their transmutation of species was instructive because of what it says about language.

Preservation, species itself, the immortality of flora and fauna...all grammatical points.

that certainly makes for some of the conversational talking points but i dont believe its related on any level.

the fact that definitions are blurred is a guaranteed consequence of the theory - if species in different locations slowly drift out of synch with each other then by definition, their will be an annoying amount of grey area and personal opinion about where the line is drawn and things in different states of drift.

same thing shows up on pantone charts when we try and turn the RGB spectrum into neat little colour names - some folks get right into it and have thousands of defintions, others are happy with "dark red" and "very dark red"

so no, its not related because it only takes a moments thought to overcome that if you arent stridently anti and just playing gotcha games.

its other things and they are instinctual and visceral, they appear randomly when the truth leaks out and the illusion of conversation drops.

--

which is fine, but dont expect me to care about it nor allow it to stomp all over the bits of science i find interesting !

id be stoked if evolution was wrong - that would be the kind of new discovery that changes everything, like finding aliens.

Posted: **Sat May 15, 2021 10:42 am**

noddy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:22 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:32 am
noddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:57 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:35 am
noddy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:28 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:08 am

Science of the gaps
exactly.

this is only a problem for some flavours of religion, a god that recedes - with science its the ho hum status quo, every answer triggers another question.
I don't know about that.
poorly expressed on a grumpy day.

the gaps are builtin for science, philosophical concerns with those gaps is a different subject all together.
Now we're goin' from science of the gaps to the philosophy of the absent...or is that the absence of philosophy in the science of the gaps all within a god-shaped hole?

===========

I haven't caught up with the thread yet but to reiterate with a little bit of seriousness, I'm not bringing divinity into it; yet the counter-argument, if one is to be made, does start with a discussing language difficulties.

When we talk about item X, all we are discussing is language and language agreements.

One would then argue the biological answer founders because it doesn't pass the test between being a language common to all and a language shared by some-- the latter being very much the mark of language games. As a contrast of fields, physics and chemistry and mathematics do not (often) run into these problems-- and the argument would need to demonstrate how they are languages common to all.

The extreme skepticism that anything is actually being said, that these birdsongs amount to something one needs to listen to, doesn't lessen when the arguments are to fold within themselves on appeals to utility; regulative principles; consensus within a group; and the mystification and romance of the profession.

Traveling to the origins of this biological soup of...err...biology...the controversy among the educated opposition to those radical materialists and their transmutation of species was instructive because of what it says about language.

Preservation, species itself, the immortality of flora and fauna...all grammatical points.
that certainly makes for some of the conversational talking points but i dont believe its related on any level.

the fact that definitions are blurred is a guaranteed consequence of the theory - if species in different locations slowly drift out of synch with each other then by definition, their will be an annoying amount of grey area and personal opinion about where the line is drawn and things in different states of drift.

same thing shows up on pantone charts when we try and turn the RGB spectrum into neat little colour names - some folks get right into it and have thousands of defintions, others are happy with "dark red" and "very dark red"

so no, its not related because it only takes a moments thought to overcome that if you arent stridently anti and just playing gotcha games.

its other things and they are instinctual and visceral, they appear randomly when the truth leaks out and the illusion of conversation drops.

--

which is fine, but dont expect me to care about it nor allow it to stomp all over the bits of science i find interesting !

id be stoked if evolution was wrong - that would be the kind of new discovery that changes everything, like finding aliens.

I had colors in mind while poasting many moons ago, I don't agree that it's like colors and can think of several reasons why it isn't. The sufficient one here is that no one confuses the language of a poet with the language of a physicist in regards to color. We all have the ability to recognize the differences, how the two mix and how to code switch between the two; even at a rudimentary level. In other words we are dealing with languages which are settling upon a rigid designator with universal application for all.

Is this the case biologically? No.

The edifice first requires as its organizing base a mastery of that informal, poetic language of how people talk about these chemical data-processing systems. It's Bambi-speak; that people learn to observe and anthropomorphize to varying degrees.

Then we persuade ourselves that it is much more sophisticated to take Bambi and give him temporal and spatial extension.

Posted: **Sun May 16, 2021 1:35 am**

unless you are very interested in a subject, human brains dont like the messy complexity of overlapping venn diagrams with blurry edges and much prefer discrete boxes.

we are simple critters that can only handle a small handful of facts at a time, its an imperative to not waste brain space on irrelevant details , so reducing complexity is a natural part of keeping the brain from getting overloaded.

this goes far beyond biology, it shows up in every single conversation on any topic ever.

reality is blurry venn diagrams, opinions are neat boxes.

sometimes folks get upset about their neat boxes being argued with, but thats for reasons unrelated to language or simplification... its because they have made a stance on the boxes thats important to them.

--

statistical averages and choosing lines in the sand for the purpose of catagories is unsexy, its not intellectually satisfying or reassuringly solid.

it is however our best approximation of reality at the moment and a more accurate measurement than the previous attempts which handwaved the blurs away.

Posted: **Sun May 16, 2021 4:57 am**

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 10:42 am
As a contrast of fields, physics and chemistry and mathematics do not (often) run into these problems-- and the argument would need to demonstrate how they are languages common to all.

not really.

the high school level of chemistry with the electron shell model is every bit as wrong and messy to understand against the modern physicists view of how it all works.

and again, its not neat boxes, its blurry areas of grey and statistical analysis.

Posted: **Sun May 16, 2021 11:36 am**

noddy wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:57 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 10:42 am
As a contrast of fields, physics and chemistry and mathematics do not (often) run into these problems-- and the argument would need to demonstrate how they are languages common to all.

not really.

the high school level of chemistry with the electron shell model is every bit as wrong and messy to understand against the modern physicists view of how it all works.

and again, its not neat boxes, its blurry areas of grey and statistical analysis.

Yep. "Follow the science!" is the latest hipster phrase which really means "Don't dispute my religious dogma!"

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 2:56 am**

Simple Minded wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:36 am
noddy wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:57 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 10:42 am
As a contrast of fields, physics and chemistry and mathematics do not (often) run into these problems-- and the argument would need to demonstrate how they are languages common to all.

not really.

the high school level of chemistry with the electron shell model is every bit as wrong and messy to understand against the modern physicists view of how it all works.

and again, its not neat boxes, its blurry areas of grey and statistical analysis.
Yep. "Follow the science!" is the latest hipster phrase which really means "Don't dispute my religious dogma!"

statistics on closed, stable systems are not the same as statistics on open chaotic systems.

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 5:55 am**

The chemist is everything the naturalist wishes to be. It's always stolen valor with this lot.

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 6:08 am**

seems to me after the newly minted black american math department, we will need to also build a white american biology department

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 6:21 am**

noddy wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 6:08 am seems to me after the newly minted black american math department, we will need to also build a white american biology department

-------------

We have one of those already, it's called the economics department.

Which came first the economic model or the model of nature's economy?

"Why of course, nature exactly mirrors our maritime commercial empire. It's the most natural thing in the world."

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 6:27 am**

speaking of statistical analysis on chaotic open systems.

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 6:50 am**

I've been fascinated with the recent-ish finding of the full skeltal remains of the Adalatherium

cY8jVAsjdrM

Posted: **Tue May 18, 2021 12:01 am**

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 6:50 am I've been fascinated with the recent-ish finding of the full skeltal remains of the Adalatherium

Did not know chipmunks had penitentiaries.

Posted: **Tue May 18, 2021 9:22 am**

Nonc Hilaire wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 12:01 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 6:50 am I've been fascinated with the recent-ish finding of the full skeltal remains of the Adalatherium
Did not know chipmunks had penitentiaries.

Escape from Madagascar.

Posted: **Tue May 18, 2021 10:34 am**

steps had to be taken when Alvin tuned to heavy drugs to mask depression when his pop career faded.

hoarded the wrong guys nuts.

On the Nature of Things | Forum

Evolution

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