U.S. Foreign Policy

[Doc]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 11072.html

British 'Vicar of Baghdad' claims Isis beheaded four children for refusing to convert to Islam

Canon Andrew White claims Isis have been ‘chopping children in half’ in their campaign against Christianity

Monday 08 December 2014

Isis have beheaded four Christian children in Iraq for refusing to convert to Islam, a British vicar based in the country has claimed.

Canon Andrew White, who is known as the ‘vicar of Baghdad’, told Orthodox Christian Network that the killings happened in a Christian enclave close to Baghdad which has been taken over by Isis (formerly known as Islamic State).

He spoke of how Isis has “hounded” the Christians out of Iraq, and how “they killed in huge numbers, they chopped their children in half, they chopped their heads off, and they moved north and it was so terrible what happened”.

He told the network that militants “came to one of our people the other day, one of the Christians”.

“They said to one man, an adult, ‘Either you say the words of conversion to Islam or we kill all your children’.

“He was desperate, he said the words. And then he phoned me, and said, ‘Abouna [Father], I said the words, does that mean that Yeshua doesn’t’ love me anymore?’ I said, ‘Yeshua still loves you, he will always love you”.

Canon White claimed that the children who were beheaded had refused to “follow Mohammed”.

• Andrew White interview: 'The majority of Muslims are our friends'

“Isis turned up and said to the children, ‘You say the words that you will follow Mohammed’.”

“The children, all under 15, four of them, said no, we love Yeshua, we have always loved we have always followed Yeshua, Yeshua has always been with us.

“They said: ‘Say the words.’ They said ‘No, we can’t.’ They chopped all their heads off. How do you respond to that? You just cry.”

Canon White said that Isis were threatening to kill him, and that he is now living in Israel, following orders from the Archbishop of Canterbury to leave Iraq. He said that most of his staff are still in the north of Iraq trying to look after displaced Christians.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Reuter : .. U.N. investigator calls for prosecuting Bush and Cheney

(Reuters) - A U.N. human rights expert said a report that the U.S. Senate released on Tuesday revealed a "clear policy orchestrated at a high level within the Bush administration" and called for prosecution of U.S. officials who ordered crimes, including torture, against detainees.

Ben Emmerson, United Nations special rapporteur on human rights and counter-terrorism, said senior Bush administration officials who planned and authorized crimes must be prosecuted, along with as CIA and other U.S. government officials who committed torture such as waterboarding.

"As a matter of international law, the U.S. is legally obliged to bring those responsible to justice," Emmerson said in a statement issued in Geneva. "The U.S. Attorney General is under a legal duty to bring criminal charges against those responsible."

The CIA routinely misled the White House and Congress over its harsh interrogation program for terrorism suspects, and its methods, which included waterboarding, were more brutal than the agency acknowledged, a Senate report said on Tuesday.

Emmerson, a British international lawyer serving in the independent post since 2010, welcomed the belated release of the report, commending the Obama administration "for resisting domestic pressure to suppress these important findings".

"It is now time to take action. The individuals responsible for the criminal conspiracy revealed in today's report must be brought to justice, and must face criminal penalties commensurate with the gravity of their crimes," he said.

International law prohibits granting immunity to public officials who have engaged in acts of torture, he said.

"The fact that the policies revealed in this report were authorized at a high level within the U.S. government provides no excuse whatsoever. Indeed, it reinforces the need for criminal accountability," Emmerson said.

Torture is an international crime and perpetrators may be prosecuted by any other country to which they might travel, he added.

The U.N. Human Rights Committee, which reviewed the U.S. record in upholding civil and political rights in March, called for the release of the report then.

Critics, including independent experts on that U.N. rights panel, say the CIA program set up after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States included harsh interrogation methods that constituted torture banned by international law.

What a disaster, Doc, what a disaster

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/0 ... R120141209

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/danieldohe ... s-n1929589

Somebody now could bring this case to ICC and UN is obliged to issue arrest warrant for those responsible


Looks and smells a "Zionist" conspiracy" .. getting advice from "Israeli supreme court"

A disaster par excellence, Doc

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The CIA report says that it was reporting on things that Bush and Cheney were not told. SO perhaps the UN investigator needs to be held accountable for liable then. What's more none of the former heads of the CIA or the people running these programs were ever interviewed by the Senate committee Not one. Plus a lot of this report deals with things that happened right after 911. When people were not sure what they were supposed to do because 911 came out of the blue.

BUt I guess people figure that Obama has a better plan. --- Don't take any prisoners alive. Kill whoever you have to, to kill the people you want to kill. Even children. Yes so much easier if there are no prisoners taken.

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Doc, you no foolin Ahmadinejaaat .. buck stops with Bush & Cheney, argument "I did not know" was put aside once for all in "Nurenburg" .. and, Bush still not letting go Bush Defends CIA ‘Patriots’ on Eve of Senate’s ‘Torture Report’ .. all documented, Doc, all documented


They sold the good name of our beloved America cheap, very cheap .. these Islamist POS were not worth draging America into slum, and, seems no worthwhile intelligence came out of all this disaster.

America highjacked by weirdos .. Mc Cains, Cheney, Bushes .. imagine, Doc, now the BaBy Bush wants his turn of ruining America

Where is Mr. Perfect (probably hiding, too ashamed) ? ? GOP defends CIA interrogation tactics

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[Heracleum Persicum]

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Lin Zuoming, president of Aviation Industry Corporation of China

Dec 9 (Reuters) - China's new stealth fighter could certainly "take down" its opponent in the sky, the president of China's top aircraft maker said on Tuesday, referring to its U.S.-made counterpart.

Lin Zuoming, president of Aviation Industry Corp of China (Avic), which developed the J-31 stealth fighter, made the remarks in an interview on state broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV).

"When it takes to the sky, it can definitely take it down," he said, in a reference to the U.S.-made F-35. "That's a certainty."

Lin also emphasised the company's desire to compete with the United States in new markets, particularly countries the U.S. will not sell military equipment to as well as countries that cannot afford the pricier F-35.

"The next-generation air forces that are unable to buy the F-35 have no way to build themselves up. We don't believe the situation should be that way," he said.

"This world should be balanced," Lin added. "Good things shouldn't all be pushed to one party."

Doc, the Chinese guy sayin your F-35 worthless

He explicitly saying China will sell to those country you not sell ..

Helloooooo, Ahmadinejat, anybody home ! ! ! !

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[Doc]

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Lin Zuoming, president of Aviation Industry Corporation of China

Dec 9 (Reuters) - China's new stealth fighter could certainly "take down" its opponent in the sky, the president of China's top aircraft maker said on Tuesday, referring to its U.S.-made counterpart.

Lin Zuoming, president of Aviation Industry Corp of China (Avic), which developed the J-31 stealth fighter, made the remarks in an interview on state broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV).

"When it takes to the sky, it can definitely take it down," he said, in a reference to the U.S.-made F-35. "That's a certainty."

Lin also emphasised the company's desire to compete with the United States in new markets, particularly countries the U.S. will not sell military equipment to as well as countries that cannot afford the pricier F-35.

"The next-generation air forces that are unable to buy the F-35 have no way to build themselves up. We don't believe the situation should be that way," he said.

"This world should be balanced," Lin added. "Good things shouldn't all be pushed to one party."

Doc, the Chinese guy sayin your F-35 worthless

He explicitly saying China will sell to those country you not sell ..

Helloooooo, Ahmadinejat, anybody home ! ! ! !

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Funny the J-31 is a copy from stolen plans for the F-35

Well we will see in about 20 years That is if the CCP survives that long.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Funny the J-31 is a copy from stolen plans for the F-35

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Yes, it is

Well known fact in Pentagon, Mos*he sold the secrets to Chinese

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[Doc]

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Funny the J-31 is a copy from stolen plans for the F-35

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Yes, it is

MWell known fact in Pentagon, Mos*he sold the secrets to Chinese

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Actually the Chinese stole them is a well known and documented cyber attack.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-cybe ... 1415838777

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Funny the J-31 is a copy from stolen plans for the F-35

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Yes, it is

MWell known fact in Pentagon, Mos*he sold the secrets to Chinese

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Actually the Chinese stole them is a well known and documented cyber attack.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-cybe ... 1415838777

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Notion, Chinese can enter Lockheed Martin servers and steel secrets of F-35 a 2bit Santa Claus joke to fool American Joe, for those who don't know how this things work .. Jonathan Pollard just tip of iceberg .. Mos*he not only has free access to all those goodies, but those guarding the chickens, they in bed with FOX

Poor Joe

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[Heracleum Persicum]

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Senate Intelligence Committee report on C.I.A. torture disputes the notion that
the agency would not have found Osama bin Laden if it had not tortured detainees.

. . in page after page of previously classified evidence, the Senate Intelligence Committee report on C.I.A. torture, released Tuesday, rejects the notion that torturing detainees contributed to finding Bin Laden.

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“The vast majority of the intelligence” about the Qaeda courier who led the agency to Bin Laden “was originally acquired from sources unrelated to the C.I.A.’s detention and interrogation program, and the most accurate information acquired from a C.I.A. detainee was provided prior to the C.I.A. subjecting the detainee to the C.I.A.’s enhanced interrogation techniques,” the Senate report said.

It added that most of “the documents, statements and testimony” from the C.I.A. regarding a connection between the torture of detainees and the Bin Laden hunt were “inaccurate and incongruent with C.I.A. records.”

On Tuesday, the C.I.A. disputed the committee’s portrayal that it had been misleading and disingenuous about the role of that program in the hunt for Bin Laden.

The crucial breakthrough in the hunt was the identification of the courier, known as Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, who was the terrorist leader’s link to the outside world from his secret compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. His significance gradually came into sharper focus.

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In its statement pushing back on the report, the C.I.A. insisted another detainee, Ammar Al Baluchi, had been “the first to reveal” Mr. Kuwaiti was a courier, after Mr. Baluchi’s arrest and subjection to enhanced interrogation techniques in May 2003.

But the Senate report shows that Mr. Baluchi’s claim was not recognized as a breakthrough, in part because he recanted what he had said under torture. The report also notes that to make its claim about the significance of Mr. Baluchi’s information, the agency “ignores” detailed information in its records from 2002, from several detainees in the custody of other governments, “suggesting al-Kuwaiti may have served as a courier” for Bin Laden.

Continue reading the main story

Graphic: A History of the C.I.A.’s Secret Interrogation Program
The C.I.A.’s statement also said that Mr. Ghul had provided “more concrete and less speculative” information that Mr. Kuwaiti was a courier after Mr. Ghul was subjected to its “enhanced” interrogation techniques. The Senate report called the agency’s rebuttal “incorrect,” citing contemporaneous C.I.A. reports.

The C.I.A.’s records also show that detainees subjected to the torture techniques “provided fabricated, inconsistent and generally unreliable information” about the courier throughout their detention, the report said.

The C.I.A. countered that statements by two other detainees playing down the importance of Mr. Kuwaiti were significant corroboration that he was a secret worth protecting. The Senate report showed that the agency pressed both detainees about the courier in the summer of 2005 and thought both were lying.

But the Senate report suggested that the agency had already sharpened its focus on Mr. Kuwaiti by the time of those denials. On Sept. 1, 2005, an internal agency bulletin on the hunt for Bin Laden reported that the search for his couriers was going nowhere because detainees were being unhelpful, adding, “We nonetheless continue the hunt for Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti.”

Five and a half years later, in March 2011, the C.I.A.’s public affairs office prepared material for release after the operation, including developing “agreed upon language” that would emphasize “the critical nature of detainee reporting in identifying Bin Laden’s courier.”


much more interesting @ link

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Look, guys .. the emperor has no cloth .. CIA lying and lying trying to make sense ruining American world image

America's world image is result of 200+ yrs of good deeds .. and now this

One would argue, Abu Ghoreib was result of a few runagate intelligence officers .. but this one ? ? ?

A big disaster for generation to come


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[Heracleum Persicum]

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, Doc, I love this one


Some detainees subjected to ‘rectal feeding’

. . subjecting uncooperative detainees to “rectal rehydration” and “rectal feeding.”

mad mullahs laughing


Hayden’s testimony vs. the Senate report


Hyden is now portrayed as clown, lying through the nose .. Nixon vindicated


Senate report on CIA program details brutality, dishonesty


CIA’s stain on America

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[YMix]

A Russophobic Rant from Congress
By Pat Buchanan • December 9, 2014 • 900 Words

Hopefully, Russians realize that our House of Representatives often passes thunderous resolutions to pander to special interests, which have no bearing on the thinking or actions of the U.S. government.

Last week, the House passed such a resolution 411-10.

As ex-Rep. Ron Paul writes, House Resolution 758 is so “full of war propaganda that it rivals the rhetoric from the chilliest era of the Cold War.”

H. R. 758 is a Russophobic rant full of falsehoods and steeped in superpower hypocrisy.

Among the 43 particulars in the House indictment is this gem:

“The Russian Federation invaded the Republic of Georgia in August 2008.”

Bullhockey. On Aug. 7-8, 2008, Georgia invaded South Ossetia, a tiny province that had won its independence in the 1990s. Georgian artillery killed Russian peacekeepers, and the Georgian army poured in.

Only then did the Russian army enter South Ossetia and chase the Georgians back into their own country.

The aggressor of the Russo-Georgia war was not Vladimir Putin but President Mikheil Saakashvili, brought to power in 2004 in one of those color-coded revolutions we engineered in the Bush II decade.

H.R. 758 condemns the presence of Russian troops in Abkhazia, which also broke from Georgia in the early 1990s, and in Transnistria, which broke from Moldova. But where is the evidence that the peoples of Transnistria, Abkhazia or South Ossetia want to return to Moldova or Georgia?

We seem to support every ethnic group that secedes from Russia, but no ethnic group that secedes from a successor state.

This is rank Russophobia masquerading as democratic principle.

What do the people of Crimea, Transnistria, Georgia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Luhansk or Donetsk want? Do we really know? Do we care?

And what have the Russians done to support secessionist movements to compare with our 78-day bombing of Serbia to rip away her cradle province of Kosovo, which had been Serbian land before we were a nation?

H.R. 758 charges Russia with an “invasion” of Crimea.

But there was no air, land or sea invasion. The Russians were already there by treaty and the reannexation of Crimea, which had belonged to Russia since Catherine the Great, was effected with no loss of life.

Compare how Putin retrieved Crimea, with the way Lincoln retrieved the seceded states of the Confederacy — a four-year war in which 620,000 Americans perished.

Russia is charged with using “trade barriers to apply economic and political pressure” and interfering in Ukraine’s “internal affairs.”

This is almost comical.

The U.S. has imposed trade barriers and sanctions on Russia, Belarus, Iran, Cuba, Burma, Congo, Sudan, and a host of other nations.

Economic sanctions are the first recourse of the American Empire.

And agencies like the National Endowment for Democracy and its subsidiaries, our NGOs and Cold War radios, RFE and Radio Liberty, exist to interfere in the internal affairs of countries whose regimes we dislike, with the end goal of “regime change.”

Was that not the State Department’s Victoria Nuland, along with John McCain, prancing around Kiev, urging insurgents to overthrow the democratically elected government of Viktor Yanukovych?

Was Nuland not caught boasting about how the U.S. had invested $5 billion in the political reorientation of Ukraine, and identifying whom we wanted as prime minister when Yanukovych was overthrown?

H.R. 578 charges Russia with backing Syria’s Assad regime and providing it with weapons to use against “the Syrian people.”

But Assad’s principal enemies are the al-Nusra Front, an al-Qaida affiliate, and ISIS. They are not only his enemies, and Russia’s enemies, but our enemies. And we ourselves have become de facto allies of Assad with our air strikes against ISIS in Syria.

And what is Russia doing for its ally in Damascus, by arming it to resist ISIS secessionists, that we are not doing for our ally in Baghdad, also under attack by the Islamic State?

Have we not supported Kurdistan in its drive for autonomy? Have U.S. leaders not talked of a Kurdistan independent of Iraq?

H.R. 758 calls the President of Russia an “authoritarian” ruler of a corrupt regime that came to power through election fraud and rules by way of repression.

Is this fair, just or wise? After all, Putin has twice the approval rating in Russia as President Obama does here, not to mention the approval rating our Congress.

Damning Russian “aggression,” the House demands that Russia get out of Crimea, South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Transnistria, calls on Obama to end all military cooperation with Russia, impose “visa bans, targeted asset freezes, sectoral sanctions,” and send “lethal … defense articles” to Ukraine.

This is the sort of ultimatum that led to Pearl Harbor.

Why would a moral nation arm Ukraine to fight a longer and larger war with Russia that Kiev could not win, but that could end up costing the lives of ten of thousands more Ukrainians?

Those who produced this provocative resolution do not belong in charge of U.S. foreign policy, nor of America’s nuclear arsenal.

[Endovelico]

I would say it is quite clear why some of us in Europe want an end to NATO and a total withdrawal of American forces still in Europe. Peace in the world will not be possible as long as the US keeps this type of foreign policy. The US is not obviously the sole culprit, but it is a major factor in stirring up conflicts throughout the world.

[Endovelico]

Seen on the walls of the State Department, or was it in Congress?...

[Heracleum Persicum]

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CIA torture report could lead to prosecutions of Americans abroad
actions on foreign soil could fall under legal jurisdictions of those countries or the ICC in The Hague

US officials and other American citizens implicated by the Senate report on torture could face arrest in other countries as a result of investigations by foreign courts, human rights lawyers said on Wednesday.

The report, released on Tuesday by the Senate intelligence committee, found the CIA misled the White House, the Justice Department, Congress and the public over a torture programme, launched in the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks, that was both ineffective and more brutal than the agency disclosed.

“If I was one of those people, I would hesitate before making any travel arrangements,” said Michael Bochenek, director of law and policy at Amnesty International.

The Obama administration wound up an inquiry into criminal responsibility for the use of torture in 2012, without launching any prosecutions and it is unclear whether the Senate report will lead to that decision being reviewed. But because torture is considered a grave crime under international law, other governments could arrest and prosecute anyone implicated in the report who was on their territory under the principle of universal jurisdiction.

“Some of these people will never leave US borders again,” Bochenek said. “If say, one of them goes on holiday in Paris, then France would have the legal obligation to arrest and prosecute that individual. States have clear obligation in cases of torture.”

In the most famous case of the application of universal jurisdiction for severe human rights abuses, the former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was arrested in London in 1998 on the basis of an indictment issued by a Spanish court. In 2009, Westminster magistrates court issued an arrest warrant for the former Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni. Israel subsequently demanded a change in UK law that would allow her to travel without fear of arrest.

The Senate report will almost certainly be assessed by the international criminal court as part of a preliminary examination of US treatment of detainees in Afghanistan. However, it is currently seen as unlikely that the ICC’s inquiry will lead to charges against the US officials involved in the torture programme, for both legal and political reasons.

“Certain of the enhanced interrogation techniques apparently approved by US senior commanders in Afghanistan in the period from February 2003 through [to]June 2004, could, depending on the severity and duration of their use, amount to cruel treatment, torture or outrages upon personal dignity as defined under international jurisprudence,” the ICC prosecutor’s office said in an annual report on its activities.

Earlier this month, the court, which is based in The Hague, revealed for the first time that it was looking into the potential US torture of detainees in Afghanistan. “In addition, there is information available that interrogators allegedly committed abuses that were outside the scope of any approved techniques, such as severe beating, especially beating on the soles of the feet, suspension by the wrists, and threats to shoot or kill,” the prosecutor’s office said.

Bochenek said that the ICC inquiry represented “the most obvious way the report would enter the ICC’s jurisdiction”.

..

The prosecutors would have to make a call on whether the scale of the abuse warranted judgment from an international court established to prosecute “the most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole”. The Senate report mentions 39 known cases of enhanced interrogation techniques, only some of which took place in Afghanistan. There are no exact benchmarks for the ICC’s jurisdiction, but it has tended to examine mass crimes involving many thousands of victims.

“The ICC was designed to end impunity for the most egregious and shocking breaches of the law, and it is hard to see how alleged detainee abuse by US forces meets that standard,” Ryan Vogel, an assistant professor at the Chicago-Kent College of Law and former policy adviser to the US defence secretary, argued on the Lawfare Blog.

However, Bochenek argued that the significance of the US torture programme went beyond simple numbers of victims. “This was the world’s only superpower that has carried out a programme of torture and tried it cover it up in a reprehensible way and recruited the help of some 50 other countries in the programme.”

Vogel also pointed out that, on the principle of complementarity, the ICC prosecutors would have to demonstrate that the US was unwilling or unable to prosecute the abuses itself. The ICC would have to show that the American process was essentially a sham. The prosecutor’s office alluded to these obstacles, saying it was “analysing the relevance and genuineness of national proceedings by the competent national authorities for the alleged conduct described above as well as the gravity of the alleged crimes”.

Furthermore, the US is not a state party to the ICC. Bill Clinton signed the Rome statute establishing the court during his last days in office in 2000, but his successor, George W Bush, withdrew US assent to the document.

The Afghan government could request an ICC investigation as it is a state party to the statute and the abuses were committed on its soil, but Kabul is an American ally and dependent on US economic and military support. An ICC investigation would also look at abuses by all parties in Afghanistan over a given period, including the Kabul government.

Seems America did not learn the lesson from Abu Ghoreib .. in Bagram they doubled down

Doc, that thing hittin the fan

Our beloved America could be declared an "Outlaw" nation .. a rogue nation

What a disaster


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[Doc]

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CIA torture report could lead to prosecutions of Americans abroad
actions on foreign soil could fall under legal jurisdictions of those countries or the ICC in The Hague

US officials and other American citizens implicated by the Senate report on torture could face arrest in other countries as a result of investigations by foreign courts, human rights lawyers said on Wednesday.

The report, released on Tuesday by the Senate intelligence committee, found the CIA misled the White House, the Justice Department, Congress and the public over a torture programme, launched in the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks, that was both ineffective and more brutal than the agency disclosed.

“If I was one of those people, I would hesitate before making any travel arrangements,” said Michael Bochenek, director of law and policy at Amnesty International.

The Obama administration wound up an inquiry into criminal responsibility for the use of torture in 2012, without launching any prosecutions and it is unclear whether the Senate report will lead to that decision being reviewed. But because torture is considered a grave crime under international law, other governments could arrest and prosecute anyone implicated in the report who was on their territory under the principle of universal jurisdiction.

“Some of these people will never leave US borders again,” Bochenek said. “If say, one of them goes on holiday in Paris, then France would have the legal obligation to arrest and prosecute that individual. States have clear obligation in cases of torture.”

In the most famous case of the application of universal jurisdiction for severe human rights abuses, the former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was arrested in London in 1998 on the basis of an indictment issued by a Spanish court. In 2009, Westminster magistrates court issued an arrest warrant for the former Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni. Israel subsequently demanded a change in UK law that would allow her to travel without fear of arrest.

The Senate report will almost certainly be assessed by the international criminal court as part of a preliminary examination of US treatment of detainees in Afghanistan. However, it is currently seen as unlikely that the ICC’s inquiry will lead to charges against the US officials involved in the torture programme, for both legal and political reasons.

“Certain of the enhanced interrogation techniques apparently approved by US senior commanders in Afghanistan in the period from February 2003 through [to]June 2004, could, depending on the severity and duration of their use, amount to cruel treatment, torture or outrages upon personal dignity as defined under international jurisprudence,” the ICC prosecutor’s office said in an annual report on its activities.

Earlier this month, the court, which is based in The Hague, revealed for the first time that it was looking into the potential US torture of detainees in Afghanistan. “In addition, there is information available that interrogators allegedly committed abuses that were outside the scope of any approved techniques, such as severe beating, especially beating on the soles of the feet, suspension by the wrists, and threats to shoot or kill,” the prosecutor’s office said.

Bochenek said that the ICC inquiry represented “the most obvious way the report would enter the ICC’s jurisdiction”.

..

The prosecutors would have to make a call on whether the scale of the abuse warranted judgment from an international court established to prosecute “the most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole”. The Senate report mentions 39 known cases of enhanced interrogation techniques, only some of which took place in Afghanistan. There are no exact benchmarks for the ICC’s jurisdiction, but it has tended to examine mass crimes involving many thousands of victims.

“The ICC was designed to end impunity for the most egregious and shocking breaches of the law, and it is hard to see how alleged detainee abuse by US forces meets that standard,” Ryan Vogel, an assistant professor at the Chicago-Kent College of Law and former policy adviser to the US defence secretary, argued on the Lawfare Blog.

However, Bochenek argued that the significance of the US torture programme went beyond simple numbers of victims. “This was the world’s only superpower that has carried out a programme of torture and tried it cover it up in a reprehensible way and recruited the help of some 50 other countries in the programme.”

Vogel also pointed out that, on the principle of complementarity, the ICC prosecutors would have to demonstrate that the US was unwilling or unable to prosecute the abuses itself. The ICC would have to show that the American process was essentially a sham. The prosecutor’s office alluded to these obstacles, saying it was “analysing the relevance and genuineness of national proceedings by the competent national authorities for the alleged conduct described above as well as the gravity of the alleged crimes”.

Furthermore, the US is not a state party to the ICC. Bill Clinton signed the Rome statute establishing the court during his last days in office in 2000, but his successor, George W Bush, withdrew US assent to the document.

The Afghan government could request an ICC investigation as it is a state party to the statute and the abuses were committed on its soil, but Kabul is an American ally and dependent on US economic and military support. An ICC investigation would also look at abuses by all parties in Afghanistan over a given period, including the Kabul government.

Seems America did not learn the lesson from Abu Ghoreib .. in Bagram they doubled down

Doc, that thing hittin the fan

Our beloved America could be declared an "Outlaw" nation .. a rogue nation

What a disaster.

Actually nothing is hitting the fan except BS. The lesson of Abu Ghoreib....... Well since Abu Ghoreib happened after pretty much everything in the Senate report happened I have to assume that you mean the Senate should not have released the report.

OR di the report say that women were murdered by the state for going to soccer matches? OR murdered by the state for being raped? Do you mean that kind of outlaw nation Azari loves Iran?

[Nastarana]

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Hagel Forced to Step Down


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Hagel struggled with the incoherence of Obama’s national security policies and could only halfheartedly speak for them. His primary concern was the soldiers, sailors, and airmen his department led, and not the ambitions of politicians. He just did not fit in with the neocon restoration that Obama has led in response to the Syria/Iraq/ISIS debacles. So, Hagel had to be pushed out and declared privately as "not being up to the job." If Hillary Clinton gets elected, this restoration of war as a reflexive national response to the world will likely continue on steroids, although I doubt the nominated Republican candidate will be any different. No one is going to obtain or stay in power in this government without championing violence and preening exceptionalism as the primary MO that more blood and treasure will be spent on.

The Neocons (and American electoral) need a "catastrophic" DEFEAT .. something like "escaping in choppers from that Saigon embassy rooftop" .. to understand world has changed .. unfortunately, until that date, lots of killing and blood spilling


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Dear Heracleum Persicum, for what it might be worth, I strongly suspect that the American entity which some are calling the "Deep State" has determined to cut loose the crazy neocons before they get us all killed. I hasten to add, no one is more aware than me that we are in the territory of entrails and tea leaves here, so take it with a pound or so of salt if you wish.

Howsomever, round one was the defeat of Eric Cantor, the neos and Israel's best friend in the House of Representatives, in a Virginia primary. Professor Brat, now the new Congressman Elect, had plenty of behind the scenes help, apparent if you know where to look. Then came a public attack on Rep. Wasserman-Schultz, head or chairman or Grand Poobah of the Democratic party, and who, now, is surely on her way out of that position.

That was, or was the visible part of, the preliminary skirmishing. Now comes a more direct attack, in the form of the intelligence committee's releasing of the CIA report on torture, and other affronts to the Geneva Conventions, committed under Bush II, when neocons ruled the roost. Notice this was done in spite of Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Mme. Feinstein, also a Friend of Israel and neo-con ally, so one can only guess what kind of pressure was brought to bear there.

If I am right, there will be no attack on Syria, sorry Bennie. Unfortunately, none of the above is any consolation for Ukraine, now open for plunder by the evil Monsanto and its allies. Obama remains under the influence of the Brezhinski faction, his original patrons, who are so blinded by their ancestral loathing of Russia that they will instigate and abet any crime up to and including genocide to take down Poland's hated rival.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Hagel Forced to Step Down


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Hagel struggled with the incoherence of Obama’s national security policies and could only halfheartedly speak for them. His primary concern was the soldiers, sailors, and airmen his department led, and not the ambitions of politicians. He just did not fit in with the neocon restoration that Obama has led in response to the Syria/Iraq/ISIS debacles. So, Hagel had to be pushed out and declared privately as "not being up to the job." If Hillary Clinton gets elected, this restoration of war as a reflexive national response to the world will likely continue on steroids, although I doubt the nominated Republican candidate will be any different. No one is going to obtain or stay in power in this government without championing violence and preening exceptionalism as the primary MO that more blood and treasure will be spent on.

The Neocons (and American electoral) need a "catastrophic" DEFEAT .. something like "escaping in choppers from that Saigon embassy rooftop" .. to understand world has changed .. unfortunately, until that date, lots of killing and blood spilling


.

Dear Heracleum Persicum, for what it might be worth, I strongly suspect that the American entity which some are calling the "Deep State" has determined to cut loose the crazy neocons before they get us all killed. I hasten to add, no one is more aware than me that we are in the territory of entrails and tea leaves here, so take it with a pound or so of salt if you wish.

Howsomever, round one was the defeat of Eric Cantor, the neos and Israel's best friend in the House of Representatives, in a Virginia primary. Professor Brat, now the new Congressman Elect, had plenty of behind the scenes help, apparent if you know where to look. Then came a public attack on Rep. Wasserman-Schultz, head or chairman or Grand Poobah of the Democratic party, and who, now, is surely on her way out of that position.

That was, or was the visible part of, the preliminary skirmishing. Now comes a more direct attack, in the form of the intelligence committee's releasing of the CIA report on torture, and other affronts to the Geneva Conventions, committed under Bush II, when neocons ruled the roost. Notice this was done in spite of Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Mme. Feinstein, also a Friend of Israel and neo-con ally, so one can only guess what kind of pressure was brought to bear there.

If I am right, there will be no attack on Syria, sorry Bennie. Unfortunately, none of the above is any consolation for Ukraine, now open for plunder by the evil Monsanto and its allies. Obama remains under the influence of the Brezhinski faction, his original patrons, who are so blinded by their ancestral loathing of Russia that they will instigate and abet any crime up to and including genocide to take down Poland's hated rival.

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On the same page

Can't add a single word

said quite eloquently

seconded

.


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[Heracleum Persicum]

.


CIA torture report could lead to prosecutions of Americans abroad
actions on foreign soil could fall under legal jurisdictions of those countries or the ICC in The Hague

US officials and other American citizens implicated by the Senate report on torture could face arrest in other countries as a result of investigations by foreign courts, human rights lawyers said on Wednesday.

The report, released on Tuesday by the Senate intelligence committee, found the CIA misled the White House, the Justice Department, Congress and the public over a torture programme, launched in the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks, that was both ineffective and more brutal than the agency disclosed.

“If I was one of those people, I would hesitate before making any travel arrangements,” said Michael Bochenek, director of law and policy at Amnesty International.

The Obama administration wound up an inquiry into criminal responsibility for the use of torture in 2012, without launching any prosecutions and it is unclear whether the Senate report will lead to that decision being reviewed. But because torture is considered a grave crime under international law, other governments could arrest and prosecute anyone implicated in the report who was on their territory under the principle of universal jurisdiction.

“Some of these people will never leave US borders again,” Bochenek said. “If say, one of them goes on holiday in Paris, then France would have the legal obligation to arrest and prosecute that individual. States have clear obligation in cases of torture.”

In the most famous case of the application of universal jurisdiction for severe human rights abuses, the former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was arrested in London in 1998 on the basis of an indictment issued by a Spanish court. In 2009, Westminster magistrates court issued an arrest warrant for the former Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni. Israel subsequently demanded a change in UK law that would allow her to travel without fear of arrest.

The Senate report will almost certainly be assessed by the international criminal court as part of a preliminary examination of US treatment of detainees in Afghanistan. However, it is currently seen as unlikely that the ICC’s inquiry will lead to charges against the US officials involved in the torture programme, for both legal and political reasons.

“Certain of the enhanced interrogation techniques apparently approved by US senior commanders in Afghanistan in the period from February 2003 through [to]June 2004, could, depending on the severity and duration of their use, amount to cruel treatment, torture or outrages upon personal dignity as defined under international jurisprudence,” the ICC prosecutor’s office said in an annual report on its activities.

Earlier this month, the court, which is based in The Hague, revealed for the first time that it was looking into the potential US torture of detainees in Afghanistan. “In addition, there is information available that interrogators allegedly committed abuses that were outside the scope of any approved techniques, such as severe beating, especially beating on the soles of the feet, suspension by the wrists, and threats to shoot or kill,” the prosecutor’s office said.

Bochenek said that the ICC inquiry represented “the most obvious way the report would enter the ICC’s jurisdiction”.

..

The prosecutors would have to make a call on whether the scale of the abuse warranted judgment from an international court established to prosecute “the most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole”. The Senate report mentions 39 known cases of enhanced interrogation techniques, only some of which took place in Afghanistan. There are no exact benchmarks for the ICC’s jurisdiction, but it has tended to examine mass crimes involving many thousands of victims.

“The ICC was designed to end impunity for the most egregious and shocking breaches of the law, and it is hard to see how alleged detainee abuse by US forces meets that standard,” Ryan Vogel, an assistant professor at the Chicago-Kent College of Law and former policy adviser to the US defence secretary, argued on the Lawfare Blog.

However, Bochenek argued that the significance of the US torture programme went beyond simple numbers of victims. “This was the world’s only superpower that has carried out a programme of torture and tried it cover it up in a reprehensible way and recruited the help of some 50 other countries in the programme.”

Vogel also pointed out that, on the principle of complementarity, the ICC prosecutors would have to demonstrate that the US was unwilling or unable to prosecute the abuses itself. The ICC would have to show that the American process was essentially a sham. The prosecutor’s office alluded to these obstacles, saying it was “analysing the relevance and genuineness of national proceedings by the competent national authorities for the alleged conduct described above as well as the gravity of the alleged crimes”.

Furthermore, the US is not a state party to the ICC. Bill Clinton signed the Rome statute establishing the court during his last days in office in 2000, but his successor, George W Bush, withdrew US assent to the document.

The Afghan government could request an ICC investigation as it is a state party to the statute and the abuses were committed on its soil, but Kabul is an American ally and dependent on US economic and military support. An ICC investigation would also look at abuses by all parties in Afghanistan over a given period, including the Kabul government.

Seems America did not learn the lesson from Abu Ghoreib .. in Bagram they doubled down

Doc, that thing hittin the fan

Our beloved America could be declared an "Outlaw" nation .. a rogue nation

What a disaster.

Actually nothing is hitting the fan except BS. The lesson of Abu Ghoreib....... Well since Abu Ghoreib happened after pretty much everything in the Senate report happened I have to assume that you mean the Senate should not have released the report.

OR di the report say that women were murdered by the state for going to soccer matches? OR murdered by the state for being raped? Do you mean that kind of outlaw nation Azari loves Iran?

True, this not as bad as the mad mullahs

Though mad mullahs could learn a few "tricks" from CIA/Mossad .. wonder how that ‘rectal feeding’ works


.

[Doc]

.


CIA torture report could lead to prosecutions of Americans abroad
actions on foreign soil could fall under legal jurisdictions of those countries or the ICC in The Hague

US officials and other American citizens implicated by the Senate report on torture could face arrest in other countries as a result of investigations by foreign courts, human rights lawyers said on Wednesday.

The report, released on Tuesday by the Senate intelligence committee, found the CIA misled the White House, the Justice Department, Congress and the public over a torture programme, launched in the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks, that was both ineffective and more brutal than the agency disclosed.

“If I was one of those people, I would hesitate before making any travel arrangements,” said Michael Bochenek, director of law and policy at Amnesty International.

The Obama administration wound up an inquiry into criminal responsibility for the use of torture in 2012, without launching any prosecutions and it is unclear whether the Senate report will lead to that decision being reviewed. But because torture is considered a grave crime under international law, other governments could arrest and prosecute anyone implicated in the report who was on their territory under the principle of universal jurisdiction.

“Some of these people will never leave US borders again,” Bochenek said. “If say, one of them goes on holiday in Paris, then France would have the legal obligation to arrest and prosecute that individual. States have clear obligation in cases of torture.”

In the most famous case of the application of universal jurisdiction for severe human rights abuses, the former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was arrested in London in 1998 on the basis of an indictment issued by a Spanish court. In 2009, Westminster magistrates court issued an arrest warrant for the former Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni. Israel subsequently demanded a change in UK law that would allow her to travel without fear of arrest.

The Senate report will almost certainly be assessed by the international criminal court as part of a preliminary examination of US treatment of detainees in Afghanistan. However, it is currently seen as unlikely that the ICC’s inquiry will lead to charges against the US officials involved in the torture programme, for both legal and political reasons.

“Certain of the enhanced interrogation techniques apparently approved by US senior commanders in Afghanistan in the period from February 2003 through [to]June 2004, could, depending on the severity and duration of their use, amount to cruel treatment, torture or outrages upon personal dignity as defined under international jurisprudence,” the ICC prosecutor’s office said in an annual report on its activities.

Earlier this month, the court, which is based in The Hague, revealed for the first time that it was looking into the potential US torture of detainees in Afghanistan. “In addition, there is information available that interrogators allegedly committed abuses that were outside the scope of any approved techniques, such as severe beating, especially beating on the soles of the feet, suspension by the wrists, and threats to shoot or kill,” the prosecutor’s office said.

Bochenek said that the ICC inquiry represented “the most obvious way the report would enter the ICC’s jurisdiction”.

..

The prosecutors would have to make a call on whether the scale of the abuse warranted judgment from an international court established to prosecute “the most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole”. The Senate report mentions 39 known cases of enhanced interrogation techniques, only some of which took place in Afghanistan. There are no exact benchmarks for the ICC’s jurisdiction, but it has tended to examine mass crimes involving many thousands of victims.

“The ICC was designed to end impunity for the most egregious and shocking breaches of the law, and it is hard to see how alleged detainee abuse by US forces meets that standard,” Ryan Vogel, an assistant professor at the Chicago-Kent College of Law and former policy adviser to the US defence secretary, argued on the Lawfare Blog.

However, Bochenek argued that the significance of the US torture programme went beyond simple numbers of victims. “This was the world’s only superpower that has carried out a programme of torture and tried it cover it up in a reprehensible way and recruited the help of some 50 other countries in the programme.”

Vogel also pointed out that, on the principle of complementarity, the ICC prosecutors would have to demonstrate that the US was unwilling or unable to prosecute the abuses itself. The ICC would have to show that the American process was essentially a sham. The prosecutor’s office alluded to these obstacles, saying it was “analysing the relevance and genuineness of national proceedings by the competent national authorities for the alleged conduct described above as well as the gravity of the alleged crimes”.

Furthermore, the US is not a state party to the ICC. Bill Clinton signed the Rome statute establishing the court during his last days in office in 2000, but his successor, George W Bush, withdrew US assent to the document.

The Afghan government could request an ICC investigation as it is a state party to the statute and the abuses were committed on its soil, but Kabul is an American ally and dependent on US economic and military support. An ICC investigation would also look at abuses by all parties in Afghanistan over a given period, including the Kabul government.

Seems America did not learn the lesson from Abu Ghoreib .. in Bagram they doubled down

Doc, that thing hittin the fan

Our beloved America could be declared an "Outlaw" nation .. a rogue nation

What a disaster.

Actually nothing is hitting the fan except BS. The lesson of Abu Ghoreib....... Well since Abu Ghoreib happened after pretty much everything in the Senate report happened I have to assume that you mean the Senate should not have released the report.

OR di the report say that women were murdered by the state for going to soccer matches? OR murdered by the state for being raped? Do you mean that kind of outlaw nation Azari loves Iran?

True, this not as bad as the mad mullahs

Though mad mullahs could learn a few "tricks" from CIA/Mossad .. wonder how that ‘rectal feeding’ works
.

I am happy to hear you say that AZ.

The CIA report really does not cover anything new. In the end I suspect the democrats will find they have fragged themselves. I mean which is better? Keeping someone from sleeping for days putting them in a diaper or killing them on sight as Obama has been doing? And in fact killing others around the intended target while killing them?

Most of this stuff happened after the leadership of both parties told the CIA to "Do whatever you have to do" following 911. You know the day the entire congress went into hiding in a hole somewhere and was afraid to come out?

I don't know if anyone has thought of this or seen this or even posted it here. There is a terribly lack of good leadership in the world currently. A guy runs for president of the US and promises "the most transparent administration ever." Then gets into office and has the least transparent administration ever. Maybe best to let the machines run things after all.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


CIA torture report could lead to prosecutions of Americans abroad
actions on foreign soil could fall under legal jurisdictions of those countries or the ICC in The Hague

US officials and other American citizens implicated by the Senate report on torture could face arrest in other countries as a result of investigations by foreign courts, human rights lawyers said on Wednesday.

The report, released on Tuesday by the Senate intelligence committee, found the CIA misled the White House, the Justice Department, Congress and the public over a torture programme, launched in the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks, that was both ineffective and more brutal than the agency disclosed.

“If I was one of those people, I would hesitate before making any travel arrangements,” said Michael Bochenek, director of law and policy at Amnesty International.

The Obama administration wound up an inquiry into criminal responsibility for the use of torture in 2012, without launching any prosecutions and it is unclear whether the Senate report will lead to that decision being reviewed. But because torture is considered a grave crime under international law, other governments could arrest and prosecute anyone implicated in the report who was on their territory under the principle of universal jurisdiction.

“Some of these people will never leave US borders again,” Bochenek said. “If say, one of them goes on holiday in Paris, then France would have the legal obligation to arrest and prosecute that individual. States have clear obligation in cases of torture.”

In the most famous case of the application of universal jurisdiction for severe human rights abuses, the former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was arrested in London in 1998 on the basis of an indictment issued by a Spanish court. In 2009, Westminster magistrates court issued an arrest warrant for the former Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni. Israel subsequently demanded a change in UK law that would allow her to travel without fear of arrest.

The Senate report will almost certainly be assessed by the international criminal court as part of a preliminary examination of US treatment of detainees in Afghanistan. However, it is currently seen as unlikely that the ICC’s inquiry will lead to charges against the US officials involved in the torture programme, for both legal and political reasons.

“Certain of the enhanced interrogation techniques apparently approved by US senior commanders in Afghanistan in the period from February 2003 through [to]June 2004, could, depending on the severity and duration of their use, amount to cruel treatment, torture or outrages upon personal dignity as defined under international jurisprudence,” the ICC prosecutor’s office said in an annual report on its activities.

Earlier this month, the court, which is based in The Hague, revealed for the first time that it was looking into the potential US torture of detainees in Afghanistan. “In addition, there is information available that interrogators allegedly committed abuses that were outside the scope of any approved techniques, such as severe beating, especially beating on the soles of the feet, suspension by the wrists, and threats to shoot or kill,” the prosecutor’s office said.

Bochenek said that the ICC inquiry represented “the most obvious way the report would enter the ICC’s jurisdiction”.

..

The prosecutors would have to make a call on whether the scale of the abuse warranted judgment from an international court established to prosecute “the most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole”. The Senate report mentions 39 known cases of enhanced interrogation techniques, only some of which took place in Afghanistan. There are no exact benchmarks for the ICC’s jurisdiction, but it has tended to examine mass crimes involving many thousands of victims.

“The ICC was designed to end impunity for the most egregious and shocking breaches of the law, and it is hard to see how alleged detainee abuse by US forces meets that standard,” Ryan Vogel, an assistant professor at the Chicago-Kent College of Law and former policy adviser to the US defence secretary, argued on the Lawfare Blog.

However, Bochenek argued that the significance of the US torture programme went beyond simple numbers of victims. “This was the world’s only superpower that has carried out a programme of torture and tried it cover it up in a reprehensible way and recruited the help of some 50 other countries in the programme.”

Vogel also pointed out that, on the principle of complementarity, the ICC prosecutors would have to demonstrate that the US was unwilling or unable to prosecute the abuses itself. The ICC would have to show that the American process was essentially a sham. The prosecutor’s office alluded to these obstacles, saying it was “analysing the relevance and genuineness of national proceedings by the competent national authorities for the alleged conduct described above as well as the gravity of the alleged crimes”.

Furthermore, the US is not a state party to the ICC. Bill Clinton signed the Rome statute establishing the court during his last days in office in 2000, but his successor, George W Bush, withdrew US assent to the document.

The Afghan government could request an ICC investigation as it is a state party to the statute and the abuses were committed on its soil, but Kabul is an American ally and dependent on US economic and military support. An ICC investigation would also look at abuses by all parties in Afghanistan over a given period, including the Kabul government.

Seems America did not learn the lesson from Abu Ghoreib .. in Bagram they doubled down

Doc, that thing hittin the fan

Our beloved America could be declared an "Outlaw" nation .. a rogue nation

What a disaster.

Actually nothing is hitting the fan except BS. The lesson of Abu Ghoreib....... Well since Abu Ghoreib happened after pretty much everything in the Senate report happened I have to assume that you mean the Senate should not have released the report.

OR di the report say that women were murdered by the state for going to soccer matches? OR murdered by the state for being raped? Do you mean that kind of outlaw nation Azari loves Iran?

True, this not as bad as the mad mullahs

Though mad mullahs could learn a few "tricks" from CIA/Mossad .. wonder how that ‘rectal feeding’ works
.

I am happy to hear you say that AZ.

The CIA report really does not cover anything new. In the end I suspect the democrats will find they have fragged themselves. I mean which is better? Keeping someone from sleeping for days putting them in a diaper or killing them on sight as Obama has been doing? And in fact killing others around the intended target while killing them?

Most of this stuff happened after the leadership of both parties told the CIA to "Do whatever you have to do" following 911. You know the day the entire congress went into hiding in a hole somewhere and was afraid to come out?

I don't know if anyone has thought of this or seen this or even posted it here. There is a terribly lack of good leadership in the world currently. A guy runs for president of the US and promises "the most transparent administration ever." Then gets into office and has the least transparent administration ever. Maybe best to let the machines run things after all.

.

Doc, you are right, but you not considering heart of the matter

For Billions of "common" people on planet earth, Azari one of them, America is (intentionally did not say was, because it still is) a "symbol" of the "GOOD" on planet earth .. those billions have a dream of America that plays fair, is just, is human, generous, big heart and many other NOBEL things .. Knowing the history, nobody expects Britain or Germany or France or Japan doing things out of love of humanity, but all those commoners expect America otherswise

That is why it hurts so much seeing America dragged into this kind of slam

IMO, Bush/Cheney were badly mistake, when 9/11 happened .. as gruesome as it was, losing so many lives, people jumping out of windows .. it was a mistake to lash back in kind .. America is not Bin Laden or those animals beheading innocent humans beings

Was a mistake .. those in charge that time must be held accountable for the misjudgment .. that would be the acid test for American "exceptionalism"

.

[Nastarana]

Heracleum Persicum. Thank you.

Note that, while the neos may have been able to take down Secretary Hagel, they were not able to get one of their own into his job. The neos love female appointees; having (unqualified) women in office keeps the shrill feminists off their backs. Ashton Carter appears to be a member of the permanent government, as is Robert Gates.

If nothing else, it is going to be entertaining to watch. The neos are not the kind of people who take their marbles and go home just because the owner of the playground asked them to leave.

I hardly think "better than the mad mullahs" is a standard with which we should be satisfied.

[Doc]

.


CIA torture report could lead to prosecutions of Americans abroad
actions on foreign soil could fall under legal jurisdictions of those countries or the ICC in The Hague

US officials and other American citizens implicated by the Senate report on torture could face arrest in other countries as a result of investigations by foreign courts, human rights lawyers said on Wednesday.

The report, released on Tuesday by the Senate intelligence committee, found the CIA misled the White House, the Justice Department, Congress and the public over a torture programme, launched in the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks, that was both ineffective and more brutal than the agency disclosed.

“If I was one of those people, I would hesitate before making any travel arrangements,” said Michael Bochenek, director of law and policy at Amnesty International.

The Obama administration wound up an inquiry into criminal responsibility for the use of torture in 2012, without launching any prosecutions and it is unclear whether the Senate report will lead to that decision being reviewed. But because torture is considered a grave crime under international law, other governments could arrest and prosecute anyone implicated in the report who was on their territory under the principle of universal jurisdiction.

“Some of these people will never leave US borders again,” Bochenek said. “If say, one of them goes on holiday in Paris, then France would have the legal obligation to arrest and prosecute that individual. States have clear obligation in cases of torture.”

In the most famous case of the application of universal jurisdiction for severe human rights abuses, the former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was arrested in London in 1998 on the basis of an indictment issued by a Spanish court. In 2009, Westminster magistrates court issued an arrest warrant for the former Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni. Israel subsequently demanded a change in UK law that would allow her to travel without fear of arrest.

The Senate report will almost certainly be assessed by the international criminal court as part of a preliminary examination of US treatment of detainees in Afghanistan. However, it is currently seen as unlikely that the ICC’s inquiry will lead to charges against the US officials involved in the torture programme, for both legal and political reasons.

“Certain of the enhanced interrogation techniques apparently approved by US senior commanders in Afghanistan in the period from February 2003 through [to]June 2004, could, depending on the severity and duration of their use, amount to cruel treatment, torture or outrages upon personal dignity as defined under international jurisprudence,” the ICC prosecutor’s office said in an annual report on its activities.

Earlier this month, the court, which is based in The Hague, revealed for the first time that it was looking into the potential US torture of detainees in Afghanistan. “In addition, there is information available that interrogators allegedly committed abuses that were outside the scope of any approved techniques, such as severe beating, especially beating on the soles of the feet, suspension by the wrists, and threats to shoot or kill,” the prosecutor’s office said.

Bochenek said that the ICC inquiry represented “the most obvious way the report would enter the ICC’s jurisdiction”.

..

The prosecutors would have to make a call on whether the scale of the abuse warranted judgment from an international court established to prosecute “the most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole”. The Senate report mentions 39 known cases of enhanced interrogation techniques, only some of which took place in Afghanistan. There are no exact benchmarks for the ICC’s jurisdiction, but it has tended to examine mass crimes involving many thousands of victims.

“The ICC was designed to end impunity for the most egregious and shocking breaches of the law, and it is hard to see how alleged detainee abuse by US forces meets that standard,” Ryan Vogel, an assistant professor at the Chicago-Kent College of Law and former policy adviser to the US defence secretary, argued on the Lawfare Blog.

However, Bochenek argued that the significance of the US torture programme went beyond simple numbers of victims. “This was the world’s only superpower that has carried out a programme of torture and tried it cover it up in a reprehensible way and recruited the help of some 50 other countries in the programme.”

Vogel also pointed out that, on the principle of complementarity, the ICC prosecutors would have to demonstrate that the US was unwilling or unable to prosecute the abuses itself. The ICC would have to show that the American process was essentially a sham. The prosecutor’s office alluded to these obstacles, saying it was “analysing the relevance and genuineness of national proceedings by the competent national authorities for the alleged conduct described above as well as the gravity of the alleged crimes”.

Furthermore, the US is not a state party to the ICC. Bill Clinton signed the Rome statute establishing the court during his last days in office in 2000, but his successor, George W Bush, withdrew US assent to the document.

The Afghan government could request an ICC investigation as it is a state party to the statute and the abuses were committed on its soil, but Kabul is an American ally and dependent on US economic and military support. An ICC investigation would also look at abuses by all parties in Afghanistan over a given period, including the Kabul government.

Seems America did not learn the lesson from Abu Ghoreib .. in Bagram they doubled down

Doc, that thing hittin the fan

Our beloved America could be declared an "Outlaw" nation .. a rogue nation

What a disaster.

Actually nothing is hitting the fan except BS. The lesson of Abu Ghoreib....... Well since Abu Ghoreib happened after pretty much everything in the Senate report happened I have to assume that you mean the Senate should not have released the report.

OR di the report say that women were murdered by the state for going to soccer matches? OR murdered by the state for being raped? Do you mean that kind of outlaw nation Azari loves Iran?

True, this not as bad as the mad mullahs

Though mad mullahs could learn a few "tricks" from CIA/Mossad .. wonder how that ‘rectal feeding’ works
.

I am happy to hear you say that AZ.

The CIA report really does not cover anything new. In the end I suspect the democrats will find they have fragged themselves. I mean which is better? Keeping someone from sleeping for days putting them in a diaper or killing them on sight as Obama has been doing? And in fact killing others around the intended target while killing them?

Most of this stuff happened after the leadership of both parties told the CIA to "Do whatever you have to do" following 911. You know the day the entire congress went into hiding in a hole somewhere and was afraid to come out?

I don't know if anyone has thought of this or seen this or even posted it here. There is a terribly lack of good leadership in the world currently. A guy runs for president of the US and promises "the most transparent administration ever." Then gets into office and has the least transparent administration ever. Maybe best to let the machines run things after all.

.

Doc, you are right, but you not considering heart of the matter

For Billions of "common" people on planet earth, Azari one of them, America is (intentionally did not say was, because it still is) a "symbol" of the "GOOD" on planet earth .. those billions have a dream of America that plays fair, is just, is human, generous, big heart and many other NOBEL things .. Knowing the history, nobody expects Britain or Germany or France or Japan doing things out of love of humanity, but all those commoners expect America otherswise

That is why it hurts so much seeing America dragged into this kind of slam

IMO, Bush/Cheney were badly mistake, when 9/11 happened .. as gruesome as it was, losing so many lives, people jumping out of windows .. it was a mistake to lash back in kind .. America is not Bin Laden or those animals beheading innocent humans beings

Was a mistake .. those in charge that time must be held accountable for the misjudgment .. that would be the acid test for American "exceptionalism"

.

Many years passed after 911 before I could go to Washington DC without feeling angry.
It was a mistake that they did not torture to death those that murder with dreams of dying and getting 72 virgins to rape as they please. Place them in a cell with no chance of human contact. Rip their bodies apart in the most prolonged painful way possible..

They deserve it.
Instead they put diapers on them. Wouldn't let them sleep. Oh poor poor little terrorist assholes. How about give them the same choice they gave their victims on 911?

Lets review shall we?
NGe4bDn85vk
JzKI9TBR-XQ

AZ how many times do you think someone can scream in terror in that kind of fall... 30?...40?


Here are some real (graphic) pictures of the aftermath

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sit ... rs&imgdii=_

Bin Laden: They should have captured him alive brought him back and used him as the rabbit for the NYC marathon. You can bet they would have a record time that year.

AS for holding people accountable then start with Feinstein She approved of the what was done. Now that she is not afraid of dying she says she didn't All those European leaders that also knew Saddam had WMD. Were sure of it.. Until the US actually started preparing to invade and kill their person cash cows the Un oil for bribes program. When are those report going to come out AZ? When are they going to be put on trial for crimes against humanity?

The option taken was to try to change the world to make it a place less hospitable to the assholes that did this.
The other option after 911 was for the US to cut off ties to the rest of the world. Kick everyone out that did not belong here and let the rest of the world go to hell.

Which option of those two would you have chosen AZ?

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

Heracleum Persicum. Thank you.

Note that, while the neos may have been able to take down Secretary Hagel, they were not able to get one of their own into his job. The neos love female appointees; having (unqualified) women in office keeps the shrill feminists off their backs. Ashton Carter appears to be a member of the permanent government, as is Robert Gates.

If nothing else, it is going to be entertaining to watch. The neos are not the kind of people who take their marbles and go home just because the owner of the playground asked them to leave.

America must realize world has changed and America no more "Lord of the Universe" .. the sooner this sinks in, the painless the transition .. neos are the real enemy of America, and, sorry to say, but many neos from "Zionist" camp.

Nobody can help America except Americans themselves

.

I hardly think "better than the mad mullahs" is a standard with which we should be satisfied.

.

Look, Nastaran, tragedy of western civilization, including greek Philosophers, is, no such thing as "humanity" .. western philosophy quite close to mathematics, nowhere in western philosophy the word "morality or humanity" comes into play .. neither Plato nor Hegel nor Nietzsche or Goethe or Schiller talked about what is good and what is bad, right and wrong .. Christianity portrayed good & bad, but, Enlightenment "disarmed" Christianity (leaving Corrupt Christian institutions)

Result is, a total lack of any "humanity" in Western civilization of last 500 yrs .. Brits becoming biggest salve trader, colonialism, Hitler, carpet bombing of (civilian) Laos, destruction of Cambodian civilization and saga of Vietnam and now destruction of ME for Oil (Arab world is a tribal society .. and .. ISIS is killing all tribal heads of Iraq and Syria, probably western instruction, to wipe out their civilization, total chaos .. all for Oil) .. more and less the world of Tchingiz Khan and Attila


.

[Doc]

.

Heracleum Persicum. Thank you.

Note that, while the neos may have been able to take down Secretary Hagel, they were not able to get one of their own into his job. The neos love female appointees; having (unqualified) women in office keeps the shrill feminists off their backs. Ashton Carter appears to be a member of the permanent government, as is Robert Gates.

If nothing else, it is going to be entertaining to watch. The neos are not the kind of people who take their marbles and go home just because the owner of the playground asked them to leave.

America must realize world has changed and America no more "Lord of the Universe" .. the sooner this sinks in, the
painless the transition .. neos are the real enemy of America, and, sorry to say, but many neos from "Zionist" camp.

Nobody can help America except Americans themselves

You are deluding yourself. The world is sinking the last time I checked. You think that America must realize it is sinking ultimately because of 911? Is that what you think?

.

I hardly think "better than the mad mullahs" is a standard with which we should be satisfied.

.

Look, Nastaran, tragedy of western civilization, including greek Philosophers, is, no such thing as "humanity" .. western
philosophy quite close to mathematics, nowhere in western philosophy the word "morality or humanity" comes into play .. neither Plato nor Hegel nor Nietzsche or Goethe or Schiller talked about what is good and what is bad, right and wrong .. Christianity portrayed good & bad, but, Enlightenment "disarmed" Christianity (leaving Corrupt Christian institutions)

Result is, a total lack of any "humanity" in Western civilization of last 500 yrs .. Brits becoming biggest salve trader, colonialism, Hitler, carpet bombing of (civilian) Laos, destruction of Cambodian civilization and saga of Vietnam and now destruction of ME for Oil (Arab world is a tribal society .. and .. ISIS is killing all tribal heads of Iraq and Syria, probably western instruction, to wipe out their civilization, total chaos .. all for Oil) .. more and less the world of Tchingiz Khan and Attila

.[/quote]

Yes so much better to go back the way it was a 1000 years ago. So much more "civil"

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

Heracleum Persicum. Thank you.

Note that, while the neos may have been able to take down Secretary Hagel, they were not able to get one of their own into his job. The neos love female appointees; having (unqualified) women in office keeps the shrill feminists off their backs. Ashton Carter appears to be a member of the permanent government, as is Robert Gates.

If nothing else, it is going to be entertaining to watch. The neos are not the kind of people who take their marbles and go home just because the owner of the playground asked them to leave.

America must realize world has changed and America no more "Lord of the Universe" .. the sooner this sinks in, the
painless the transition .. neos are the real enemy of America, and, sorry to say, but many neos from "Zionist" camp.

Nobody can help America except Americans themselves

You are deluding yourself. The world is sinking the last time I checked. You think that America must realize it is sinking ultimately because of 911? Is that what you think ?

The world is sinking because of the big powers have lost their "moral compass"

small guys, Iran, India, Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, Libya, Uruguay etc have no say in world's sinking .. wars of last 150 yrs was between the beasts, Germans, Brits, French, Russians, Americans, Japanese etc .. 100+ million were killed in those wars .. add to this the atrocities of colonialism .. instrumental in all this were the big European and American powers

World is sinking because of "absence" of Morality and Humanity .. when Zionist drop with American planes white phosphor on Pali school children, all world watching on TV, America veto UN action against Zionist .. that means, those atrocities are OK

America on the wrong path .. policy makers influenced by Zionist .. Congress/Senate in Zionist headlock .. you dare vote against Zionist, you are not funded and not elected .. America a PR society .. Sheldon Adelson & Co ruining America


.

[Doc]

.

Heracleum Persicum. Thank you.

Note that, while the neos may have been able to take down Secretary Hagel, they were not able to get one of their own into his job. The neos love female appointees; having (unqualified) women in office keeps the shrill feminists off their backs. Ashton Carter appears to be a member of the permanent government, as is Robert Gates.

If nothing else, it is going to be entertaining to watch. The neos are not the kind of people who take their marbles and go home just because the owner of the playground asked them to leave.

America must realize world has changed and America no more "Lord of the Universe" .. the sooner this sinks in, the
painless the transition .. neos are the real enemy of America, and, sorry to say, but many neos from "Zionist" camp.

Nobody can help America except Americans themselves

You are deluding yourself. The world is sinking the last time I checked. You think that America must realize it is sinking ultimately because of 911? Is that what you think ?

The world is sinking because of the big powers have lost their "moral compass"

small guys, Iran, India, Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, Libya, Uruguay etc have no say in world's sinking .. wars of last 150 yrs was between the beasts, Germans, Brits, French, Russians, Americans, Japanese etc .. 100+ million were killed in those wars .. add to this the atrocities of colonialism .. instrumental in all this were the big European and American powers

World is sinking because of "absence" of Morality and Humanity .. when Zionist drop with American planes white phosphor on Pali school children, all world watching on TV, America veto UN action against Zionist .. that means, those atrocities are OK

America on the wrong path .. policy makers influenced by Zionist .. Congress/Senate in Zionist headlock .. you dare vote against Zionist, you are not funded and not elected .. America a PR society .. Sheldon Adelson & Co ruining America


.

America must realize world has changed and America no more "Lord of the Universe" .. the sooner this sinks in, the painless the transition .. neos are the real enemy of America, and, sorry to say, but many neos from "Zionist" camp.

For Billions of "common" people on planet earth, Azari one of them, America is (intentionally did not say was, because it still is) a "symbol" of the "GOOD" on planet earth .. those billions have a dream of America that plays fair, is just, is human, generous, big heart and many other NOBEL things .. Knowing the history, nobody expects Britain or Germany or France or Japan doing things out of love of humanity, but all those commoners expect America otherswise

That is why it hurts so much seeing America dragged into this kind of slam

Azari loves Iran speaks with forked tongue.