The conflict in Ferguson, MO

[Zack Morris]

A personal perspective: My clan is pretty much a United Nations: Blacks, Browns, Yellows, Whites and naturally more and more mixes of the previous types....

I love some of the Blacks & Browns better than some of the Whites but there is one perp in the clan who very much fits the type described by Chris Rock below: a near worthless thief and robber who robbed family and stranger alike... Often claiming to have "found something" and wanted to know if someone would buy it back

Right now he is in prison and AFAIK nobody in the clan apart from his mother and MAYBE his sister wants him back on the street again except in highly unlikely event he reforms...

Other members of the clan had it worse than him but did not turn into the POS that he is.

Cool story, bro.

[Zack Morris]

Don't forget the Asians

Although I don't want to derail this thread too much -- a discussion of Asian American issues would warrant its own thread -- I wonder if, given your view that Asians are a model minority that have excelled in the United States, you would be sympathetic to concerns about racial prejudice and stereotyping that Asians in this country have. I doubt it. From what I have seen, white people aren't all that comfortable with discussing Asian Americans' concerns, either. The usual reaction is bewilderment followed by the customary blaming of "political corectness" for making everyone feel like a victim. I mean, there's just no way that those concerns could be legitimate or relevant, right?

[Marcus]

Then pray tell what is Ferguson about . . ? . .

Get a clue, Zack, get a clue.

Regardless of how one wishes to spin the context or spin the aftermath, Ferguson is about one person's decision to play whup-ass . .

[Typhoon]

Don't forget the Asians

Although I don't want to derail this thread too much -- a discussion of Asian American issues would warrant its own thread -- I wonder if, given your view that Asians are a model minority that have excelled in the United States, you would be sympathetic to concerns about racial prejudice and stereotyping that Asians in this country have. I doubt it. From what I have seen, white people aren't all that comfortable with discussing Asian Americans' concerns, either. The usual reaction is bewilderment followed by the customary blaming of "political corectness" for making everyone feel like a victim. I mean, there's just no way that those concerns could be legitimate or relevant, right?

The chattering classes obsession about race is one of the great scourges of the US.

I found the obligatory filtering of almost any issue through the prism of race to be very tiresome.

[Marcus]

. . white people aren't all that comfortable with . .

Tell you what, Zack, . . are you white?—try teaching school in an Alaska bush village . . . are you a Yankee?—move to the rural South . . etc., etc., etc. . .

I'm with CS on this . . the knee-jerk filtering of issues through the "prism of race/prejudice" is childish as well as boring . .

[Zack Morris]

The chattering classes obsession about race is one of the great scourges of the US.

Race seems to be an obsession everywhere, including Japan. The United States and other multi-ethnic Western democracies can't simply shrug it off and hide behind some ancient notion of ethnic identity. And, given that the United States practiced institutionalized racial discrimination within living memory, the scars here are deeper and more visible. Some countries are ahead of us but many others (e.g., Latin America) are further behind and will inevitably have to go through their own painful reconciliation process.

I found the obligatory filtering of almost any issue through the prism of race to be very tiresome.

I think everyone's tired of it. But unfortunately, the underlying issues are far from solved.

[Zack Morris]

Then pray tell what is Ferguson about . . ? . .

Get a clue, Zack, get a clue.

Regardless of how one wishes to spin the context or spin the aftermath, Ferguson is about one person's decision to play whup-ass . .

No, that's not what Ferguson is about. Michael Brown's shooting was a catalyst but is not the central issue here. Michael Brown, who may or may not have been justly shot to death, is not what people are angry about.

[Zack Morris]

. . white people aren't all that comfortable with . .

Tell you what, Zack, . . are you white?—try teaching school in an Alaska bush village . . . are you a Yankee?—move to the rural South . . etc., etc., etc. . .

I'm with CS on this . . the knee-jerk filtering of issues through the "prism of race/prejudice" is childish as well as boring . .

Americans find this issue boring for the same reason they find math "boring": it's not easy to grapple with. But just because you are bored with it or incapable of addressing it does not mean it isn't important or relevant.

Whether you agree with them or not, a significant subset of the population feels wronged. What's truly childish is simply dismissing their concerns as irrelevant instead of seeking to understand where those concerns (even if they might be wrong) are coming from.

[Zack Morris]

I guess there are no philosophers on whose soothing words we can fall back on when it comes to matters of race and ethnic identity. It seems to me that this is one of the central problems confronting modern civilization today. Perhaps a brilliant thinker will emerge who can reconcile the uncomfortable realities of the past and our modern aspirations with the scientific determinism of our human nature to illuminate a way forward.

One thing's for sure: no one on this forum possesses the brain power and moral strength to accomplish this.

[Apollonius]

A personal perspective: My clan is pretty much a United Nations: Blacks, Browns, Yellows, Whites and naturally more and more mixes of the previous types....

I love some of the Blacks & Browns better than some of the Whites but there is one perp in the clan who very much fits the type described by Chris Rock below: a near worthless thief and robber who robbed family and stranger alike... Often claiming to have "found something" and wanted to know if someone would buy it back

Right now he is in prison and AFAIK nobody in the clan apart from his mother and MAYBE his sister wants him back on the street again except in highly unlikely event he reforms...

Other members of the clan had it worse than him but did not turn into the POS that he is.

Cool story, bro.

Here's another cool story Zack.


I have a nephew who is half Jamaican. He is twelve years old.

Recently there was a robbery at his school. Several bicycles were stolen. The perpetrators were found to be two of his classmates, both black. They had tried to get him to join them to "prove" that he was black and be accepted in their circle (I won't call it a gang). The mothers of the two thieves were OUTRAGED at the school for making this into a "big deal" when, after all, the bicycles were recovered.

[Marcus]

. . It seems to me . . no one on this forum possesses the brain power and moral strength [to illuminate a way forward].

Except you . .

[Zack Morris]

I have a nephew who is half Jamaican. He is twelve years old.

Recently there was a robbery at his school. Several bicycles were stolen. The perpetrators were found to be two of his classmates, both black. They had tried to get him to join them to "prove" that he was black and be accepted in their circle (I won't call it a gang). The mothers of the two thieves were OUTRAGED at the school for making this into a "big deal" when, after all, the bicycles were recovered.

Cool story indeed. It sounds like the typical story of a school confronting the parents of badly-behaved children only to be met with disbelief and hostility.

[Zack Morris]

. . It seems to me . . no one on this forum possesses the brain power and moral strength [to illuminate a way forward].

Except you . .

I never claimed to have the ability to solve this problem. I'm just amused by the fact that you think Chris Rock skits and out-of-context Bill Cosby quotes are the final word on race relations in the United States. Tell me, do you think Chris Rock and Bill Cosby share your opinions on the Ferguson debacle?

[Parodite]

What is the scariest thing about a white person in prison? You know he did it.

[Marcus]

I never claimed to have the ability to solve this problem. I'm just amused by the fact that you think Chris Rock skits and out-of-context Bill Cosby quotes are the final word on race relations in the United States. Tell me, do you think Chris Rock and Bill Cosby share your opinions on the Ferguson debacle?

Relax, Zack, I bear you no ill will. It's just too silly . . while you admit you don't know the solution, you're damned sure you know the problem. Well, maybe you do, and maybe you don't. Chill . . broad-brush, accusatory smears—whether Liberal or Conservative—are no substitute for adult discussion . .


As for Rock's and Cosby's opinion of Ferguson . . silly question . . how would I know? Ask them . .

[Zack Morris]

Well, maybe you do, and maybe you don't. Chill . . broad-brush, accusatory smears—whether Liberal or Conservative—are no substitute for adult discussion . .

Agreed.

But I don't think it's hard to identify a particular problem that is very fundamental to what happened in Ferguson and the ensuing controversy: views on what the problems with US law enforcement are, who is responsible for them, and what should be done are highly polarized by race. Both whites and blacks seem to be talking about completely different issues, and there is very little outreach on either side to find some common ground.

With regards to Michael Brown specifically, I think the halfway point here would be an independent, transparent investigation of the shooting, Officer Wilson, and the Ferguson police department. Federal involvement in the case, so long as it is not politicized or done merely to appease one faction, is a positive step. Like him or not, Holder understands both the concerns of law enforcement and the local black community and can serve a uniquely constructive role here. This is exactly the sort of matter that national leaders should be involved in.

The protests have obviously been irrational, and I'm quite sure that many of those calling for "justice" are really just interested in Officer Wilson's head on a platter regardless of what actually transpired. Likewise, there is a tendency (especially among whites) to side with authority figures, especially against minorities. That's why I think the appropriate course of action is a thorough investigation, followed by a civil debate about police conduct both in Ferguson and nationwide.

Personally, I believe it is most likely that there are real problems within Ferguson's police department and its protocols for responding to incidents and provocations and that, at the same time, Officer Wilson did nothing wrong in this particular case. All sides have legitimate points here.

As for Rock's and Cosby's opinion of Ferguson . . silly question . . how would I know? Ask them . .

This is not the first time I've seen these materials posted. Rock and Cosby are routinely cited in these debates because 1) they are black, and therefore carry additional legitimacy, and 2) because these particular skits and comments seem to absolve whites of any blame or guilt. But if we acknowledge that Rock and Cosby bring some unique legitimacy to this debate, then their actual viewpoints -- not cherry-picked quotes -- ought to be considered.

[Marcus]

. . I don't think it's hard to identify . . views [that] . . are highly polarized by race. Both whites and blacks seem to be talking about completely different issues . .

Much better, Zack, and while I agree that we are divided socially on any number of moral/ethical issues, I doubt Ferguson boils down to simply race. There are just too many people of color—Blacks, Asians, Native Americans, Middle-Easterners—who have risen above various manifestations of Jim Crow for anyone with intelligence to attach credibility to such an superficial argument. Reminds me of a quote from Steinbeck: "Lacking perceptions, she lived by rules."

And If Chris Rock and Bill Cosby are too lightweight, try Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell on race . . both are Black. Google them if you're not familiar with either.

In the end, yes, there are problems, but it's unlikely that we can agree on what they are or how to solve them. And I'm too old and too tired to argue.

Best wishes . .

[Zack Morris]

Much better, Zack, and while I agree that we are divided socially on any number of moral/ethical issues, I doubt Ferguson boils down to simply race. There are just too many people of color—Blacks, Asians, Native Americans, Middle-Easterners—who have risen above various manifestations of Jim Crow for anyone with intelligence to attach credibility to such an superficial argument. Reminds me of a quote from Steinbeck: "Lacking perceptions, she lived by rules."

Comparisons to immigrants are misleading. The experience of Asian immigrants, for example, is vastly different and more closely parallels the experience of once-undesirable European immigrants. It can't be stressed enough that notions of American exceptionalism are largely a fabrication. Even when measured by its own standards, America has lagged European nations -- especially its former "oppressor", the United Kingdom -- in terms of social progress by decades. Few Americans know that the rest of the world is keenly aware of this. The Soviets, for example, delighted in pointing out how America oppressed non-whites. The spectacle of African ambassadors being denied service in American restaurants was a propaganda coupe for the USSR and greatly embarrassed the Kennedy administration.

Unlike, say, Asian or Middle Eastern immigrants, who came here with exceptional motivation, Africans and Native Americans had no say in the matter. Their cultural heritage was systematically erased and violence inflicted on their bodies with impunity. For generations. It's no surprise then that today, both groups are among the worst performing.

Racism is most definitely a problem in the St. Louis area. My girlfriend -- who happens to be a foreigner -- witnessed it firsthand on a business trip there, not only from her white driver, but from professional, college-educated white employees at the company she was visiting. Being a model minority, they felt safe expressing their honest opinions to her.

[Simple Minded]

The chattering classes obsession about race is one of the great scourges of the US.

I found the obligatory filtering of almost any issue through the prism of race to be very tiresome.

True enough! Luckily it is a very isolated phenomena.

If they weren't hawking something, they couldn't be chatters. As they used to say "Fred just likes to hear himself talk!"

As the official spokesperson for all humanity, I encourage everyone to treat anyone who claims to speak for either the black or the white community with great suspicion. Always ask for their ID.....

[Simple Minded]

Here's another cool story Zack.


I have a nephew who is half Jamaican. He is twelve years old.

Recently there was a robbery at his school. Several bicycles were stolen. The perpetrators were found to be two of his classmates, both black. They had tried to get him to join them to "prove" that he was black and be accepted in their circle (I won't call it a gang). The mothers of the two thieves were OUTRAGED at the school for making this into a "big deal" when, after all, the bicycles were recovered.

Thanks Apollonius. One of millions of examples. POS parents and peer pressure are very tough beginnings for kids to overcome.

As teenagers, many of my brothers friends were pure dirt bags. I could not believe they wanted to hang around with such people. Something inside me said get away from these idiots. I never understood what was different about my inner voice or why my brothers could not overcome the desire for social acceptance from such people.

The difference couldn't be culture, or nurture. Perhaps genetic or chemical? The pre-Ritalin era.

Their desire for social acceptance from their peers outweighed their certain knowledge of negative consequences. They knew what they were doing was wrong. They knew they would be punished. But the thrill of "pulling a fast one" or "being a bad boy" was something they pursued. Had my Dad not been such a hardass when it came to corporal punishment, I have no doubt my brothers would have been arrested even more often than they were.

When I got in trouble, I blamed myself. When they got in trouble, they blamed everybody but themselves.

To me, everyone who blames society for the misdeeds of an individual sounds like one of my teenage brothers.

What is wrong with me?

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


Washington Post


Washington Post says there are "many skeletons" in closet re Darren Wilson and Ferguson

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[monster_gardener]

A personal perspective: My clan is pretty much a United Nations: Blacks, Browns, Yellows, Whites and naturally more and more mixes of the previous types....

I love some of the Blacks & Browns better than some of the Whites but there is one perp in the clan who very much fits the type described by Chris Rock below: a near worthless thief and robber who robbed family and stranger alike... Often claiming to have "found something" and wanted to know if someone would buy it back

Right now he is in prison and AFAIK nobody in the clan apart from his mother and MAYBE his sister wants him back on the street again except in highly unlikely event he reforms...

Other members of the clan had it worse than him but did not turn into the POS that he is.

Cool story, bro.

Thank You VERY MUCH for your KIND Reply, Zack Morris.

Thank you for the VERY Kind Words but sadly the only half cool part is that he finally got sent away to prison so that for a few years we/the clan don't have to deal with him....

Even that really is sad...... Though it is nice for the clan members who live near his mother to not have to worry about having the front door broken in and the house burglarized...... And to not have to worry about whether he is around when walking home at night..... Or be ashamed about being related to him after he robbed a non clan member such as the parsonage of the local Catholic priest.....

Still have to be careful what is said in front of his mother & sister ...

And get ready for the inevitable day when he will be released and the same old crap will likely begin again unless he gets religion* or himself killed in prison.....

And feel ashamed & sinful for almost wanting that to happen...

*Please Lord, Do NOT let it be Islam or something else Evil or Weird ...

[Nonc Hilaire]

[Zack Morris]

The difference couldn't be culture, or nurture. Perhaps genetic or chemical? The pre-Ritalin era.

There is compelling evidence that lead could have been the culprit.

To me, everyone who blames society for the misdeeds of an individual sounds like one of my teenage brothers.

What is wrong with me?

Nobody disagrees that people should understand they are personally responsible for their actions. But this common observation doesn't help explain why there is such a strong racial factor to educational achievement, economic success, political representation, and criminality. If race were not a factor, outcomes should be distributed more equally among different racial groups. But they are clearly not.

If some groups are experiencing unwarranted disadvantages, then it can be argued other groups are reaping the benefits of unearned privileges. A strong case can be made that the United States' treatment of African Americans in the past (and even to this day, even if in ways that are not explicitly sanctioned) has caused this dramatic imbalance in society. It's rational to suggest that society should take corrective action, even if the most heinous crimes were committed beyond living memory.

There are large parts of the country that still cannot bring themselves to take even simple, symbolic steps, such as apologizing for slavery and removing symbols of oppression like the Confederate flag. If the nation is expected to commemorate the sacrifices of soldiers from conflicts long forgotten, it can commemorate the people it brutalized. The crimes of the United States are comparable in magnitude to those of the Axis powers. The least we could do is begin by following Germany's example and then move forward solving this problem in good faith.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

What is wrong with me?

Now I admit to having a long rebellious streak and am highly argumentative but in my experience, the first person who brings up personal responsibility is usually the least responsible and is merely trying to pawn it off on someone else.

There is nothing personal about your sense of responsibility. It was beaten into you and you've internalized, contemplated and elaborated on the concept as you've gotten older and assumed actual responsibilities.

Now, there is nothing wrong with that. As you've argued before, you'd wouldn't be anywhere close to the person you are without your sense of responsibility. But it is contingent upon so many other things going right: a working social contract, a hierarchy (usually of parent/adults over children), and that your parents were willing to accept you having your own personal agency at one point or another. There is also a great sense of social conformity required and a strong self and superego (among other things) that make the whole edifice work.

Meanwhile, from what I've experienced, when one or more of these things are missing or have broken down, there is great confusion over what responsibility actual means or entails. And I sympathize in some cases, where the lines of responsibility are not clearly delineated and there is great pressure on people to blindly accept responsibility for things out of their control or not actually their responsibility to accept.

And when we get to political issues, we very much enter an area where there is there is very little consensus.

But what really gets my goat is how the words are merely placeholders at this point. They've been so abused as to be meaningless. Sort of like telling someone you are spiritual. You're either communicating a whole asserted worldview that must be accepted point blank or you are speaking gibberish. [the plural you is being used here] There is no way to discuss these things with others because almost everyone considers themselves personally responsible and everyone else is the genuflect up....so it's like running into walls over and over again. And again. And again.