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Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:44 am
by manolo
Folks,

A Zen Buddhist master takes a brush and slowly paints a circle in black paint on a large white sheet of paper. A black circle around a white space. He calls this: 'great white space'.

But what is it? I'm no expert on Buddhism (or much else) but would hazard the guess that, for the Zen Buddhist, it is everything. It is also nothing of course, which is the art and maybe the truth of Zen.

A Zen master tells us this, “There is Buddha for those who don't know what he is really; there is no Buddha for those who know what he is really.”

So, we go back to the picture. There is nothing in the picture to fear or want, nothing to run from or towards, except maybe the circularity and enclosure.

A Zen master tells us this,

'Before Zen, a bowl is a bowl and tea is tea.

Studying Zen, a bowl is no longer a bowl and tea is no longer tea.

After Zen, a bowl is again a bowl and tea is again tea.'

So, we go back to the picture. Maybe it doesn't represent anything, just as the bowl and tea don't represent anything. It just is. Maybe there is no circularity or enclosure, just my own fear of those feelings?

There I'm stuck; a feeling of being stuck.

Alex.

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:35 pm
by Parodite
Zen buddhism is a trap ;)

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:07 pm
by noddy
one thing i personally find interesting in this is that the western tradition for it, stoicism is treated with contempt generally.
stoic is almost a bad word that means putting up with the intolerable, the poor soul battling against a bad life.

as for zen, i know little, except overthinking it and anaylsing it wouldnt probably be very zen.

i suffer from overthinking sometimes (gnosticism?) - i find some of the zen cliches like being in the moment and doing the thing infront of you well are helpful.

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:14 pm
by Simple Minded
Alex,

"In stuckness, there is great freedom."

Redneck Zen Masterbaiter

"Think not. Feel or feel not."

Zen Yoda

Go back to Nonc's reply to your post on Catholicism. Or read some Carlos Castaneda books describing his apprenticeship.

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:32 pm
by manolo
Simple Minded wrote:
Go back to Nonc's reply to your post on Catholicism.
SM,

My post was on agnosticism and Catholic mass.

Alex.

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:38 pm
by manolo
noddy wrote:one thing i personally find interesting in this is that the western tradition for it, stoicism is treated with contempt generally.
stoic is almost a bad word that means putting up with the intolerable, the poor soul battling against a bad life.

as for zen, i know little, except overthinking it and anaylsing it wouldnt probably be very zen.

i suffer from overthinking sometimes (gnosticism?) - i find some of the zen cliches like being in the moment and doing the thing infront of you well are helpful.
noddy,

Agreed about Western views on stoicism, which might indicate a cultural misunderstanding. A psychotherapist friend used to say to me, "In the end everyone comes to acceptance." I don't know if it's true, but get the point.

Agreed about Zen and overthinking.

Not sure about overthinking and gnosticism; don't know much about it.

Agreed about Zen mindfulness.

Alex.

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:25 am
by Simple Minded
manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Go back to Nonc's reply to your post on Catholicism.
SM,

My post was on agnosticism and Catholic mass.

Alex.
Alex,

Go back to Nonc's reply to your post on agnosticism and Catholic mass.

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:18 am
by Nonc Hilaire
The Christian monk Thomas Merton found much in Zen, but also found it incomplete. Insufficient, but not incompatible.

He found the practice of zazen most valuable. I don't believe he investigated other forms of Buddhism (which are different in many ways), or in Hindu meditation which is the font of Buddhism.

More westerners are familiar with the Zen koans, which are poetic parables of a type. I have personally found the Sufi teaching stories and the poems of Rumi, Kayaam and Gibran more meaningful. Like the parables of Jesus, they are expressions of the relationship between the Worldly and the Eternal. They must be read with prayerful intention.

Any spiritual discipline requires a teacher, but that seems more true for Zen than for most.

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:07 am
by manolo
Nonc Hilaire wrote: Any spiritual discipline requires a teacher...
Nonc,

Yes, disciples require teachers. There are other paths.

Alex.

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:13 am
by manolo
Simple Minded wrote:.. your post on agnosticism and Catholic mass.
SM,

It's always good to see self correction in web discussions. Too many folks out there afraid to say 'My bad'. :)

Alex.

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:48 pm
by Simple Minded
manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:.. your post on agnosticism and Catholic mass.
SM,

It's always good to see self correction in web discussions. Too many folks out there afraid to say 'My bad'. :)

Alex.
Not me bro! I'm bad to the bone.... and know it! ;)

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:09 pm
by Simple Minded
Nonc Hilaire wrote:The Christian monk Thomas Merton found much in Zen, but also found it incomplete. Insufficient, but not incompatible.

He found the practice of zazen most valuable. I don't believe he investigated other forms of Buddhism (which are different in many ways), or in Hindu meditation which is the font of Buddhism.

More westerners are familiar with the Zen koans, which are poetic parables of a type. I have personally found the Sufi teaching stories and the poems of Rumi, Kayaam and Gibran more meaningful. Like the parables of Jesus, they are expressions of the relationship between the Worldly and the Eternal. They must be read with prayerful intention.

Any spiritual discipline requires a teacher, but that seems more true for Zen than for most.
excellent list of authors and sources nonc!

If Gibran wrote On Talking today, it might be titled On Posting! or On Texting! ;)

On Talking
Kahlil Gibran
You talk when you cease to be at peace with your thoughts;
And when you can no longer dwell in the solitude of your heart you live in your lips, and sound is a diversion and a pastime.
And in much of your talking, thinking is half murdered.
For thought is a bird of space, that in a cage of words may indeed unfold its wings but cannot fly.

There are those among you who seek the talkative through fear of being alone.
The silence of aloneness reveals to their eyes their naked selves and they would escape.
And there are those who talk, and without knowledge or forethought reveal a truth which they themselves do not understand.
And there are those who have the truth within them, but they tell it not in words.
In the bosom of such as these the spirit dwells in rhythmic silence.

When you meet your friend on the roadside or in the market place, let the spirit in you move your lips and direct your tongue.
Let the voice within your voice speak to the ear of his ear;
For his soul will keep the truth of your heart as the taste of the wine is remembered
When the colour is forgotten and the vessel is no more.


http://www.katsandogz.com/ontalking.html

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:00 am
by manolo
Simple Minded wrote: Not me bro! I'm bad to the bone.... and know it! ;)
SM,

Two exclamations in one line? :o

http://www.bardwords.org/famous-shakesp ... o-much.htm

Alex.

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:49 pm
by Simple Minded
manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: Not me bro! I'm bad to the bone.... and know it! ;)
SM,

Two exclamations in one line? :o

http://www.bardwords.org/famous-shakesp ... o-much.htm

Alex.
It's George W. Bush's fault!!!!! ;)

Back to the OP!!!!

Zen, or any ideology, religion, political party, or philosophy is a lot like getting an invitation to the best party of your lifetime and the last line on the invitation says BYOB!!!

Pretty deep huh??? :)

Re: Is there anything in Zen?

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:44 pm
by Nonc Hilaire
"AmaZen Grace, how sweet the sound,
when I didn't hear that tree . . . "

AmaZen Grace for Tree Huggers....

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:24 am
by monster_gardener
Nonc Hilaire wrote:"AmaZen Grace, how sweet the sound,
when I didn't hear that tree . . . "
Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Nonc Hilaire.

"AmaZen Grace, how sweet the sound,
when I didn't hear that tree . . . "
;)

Clever.....

+5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_ ... n_a_forest