Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Advances in the investigation of the physical universe we live in.
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5729
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Parodite »

Albert Einstein: “God doesn’t play dice.”
Niels Bohr: “Don’t tell God what to do.”


Caveat: my limited knowledge and understanding of QM means I’m probably right and wrong at the same time. Until I collapse, of course.

Mathematics versus reality?

Q-wave function gives the probability distribution for quantum measurements. So it is not necessarily a physical wave; more like a “probability wave” that is purely mathematical. Poetry.

That doesn’t mean however it is cheap let alone “wrong”: it is the most successful predictive algorithm in physics and used everyday in engineering.

This fact, of being “a mere mathematical tool” with incredible predictive powers has always begged the question: what do these QM formalisms tell us about the nature of physical reality, independent from those probabilistic descriptions?

The search for an ontological (ontological = experience-independent and measurement-independent reality) interpretation of QM, is a battle that never has been really settled.

Supposedly, QM is just too weird for common sense to be able understand it. Just do the calc, it works! So who cares “why exactly”. That may be true, but it doesn’t mean that QM works in every domain of physics. Like the other successful theories, it has a limited domain of validity.

Main domains in physics are still disconnected, with little or no overlap. Especially the theory Gravity and QM are at odds, begging each other for an explanation, of each other.
QM to Grav:

“But you can’t explain me at all, can you! You can’t even figure out how to talk to me, in what language. You are way too vague and “general”. A pompous generic monster claiming universal size and God-like applicability.

My prediction is you are in fact more quantum than you like to admit. You are just a mob of trilzillions gravitons, of mini-particles size Planck. I predict you are a quantized spacetime field made off the tiniest bosons that quantum mechanics allows for. A mob of clueless and faithful morons who dutifully allow for contrarian fermions to make a real difference in life. You are but background canvas on which the Universe unfolds while it expands.”

Grav to QM:

“Well, you have proved beyond reasonable doubt that you are simply unable to make any sense of me. Let’s start with that empirical fact. Your “reality” exists of invisible things; mathematical derivatives of a reality you have no direct access to. You are so autistic you are not even aware of what you are doing: confusing the mathematical with the real. The predictive powers of your theory do not change that fact. My reality is an everyday empirical and sensory fact of human life, while you will always just be a figment of the imagination I’m afraid. Yes, the imaginary can predict the real but that doesn’t make it less imaginary. Sorry kid.”
What does a theory look like that goes beyond both? Efforts in String theory that uses (I believe) 11 dimensions tried string it all together, but has no added value other than the art of mathematics. No physical experiments have been devised to test (parts of) string theory. Which as a consequence also means that it brings no technological advancements either. It eventually becomes a RIP case.

Measurement problem

Measuring something at the quantum level always means you disturb and change what you hope to measure. For instance, when you measure an electron for up- or down spin, after it is measured it will remain in the up or down state thereafter. This suggests that the not-yet measured “electron” is, in fact, not an electron at all, and emerges only as an observed value during local interaction when a measurement takes place at another point in spacetime. Nothing magically “collapsed”, nor was the unmeasured electron in a “superposition” being in any-or-all possible states at the same time.

What actually “travelled” from location a to b?
Deep down I'm very superficial
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5729
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Parodite »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPupnpSB8YU

TPupnpSB8YU

Superposition and entanglement on the chopping block...
Deep down I'm very superficial
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12624
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Doc »

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... proved-it/
The Universe Is Not Locally Real, and the Physics Nobel Prize Winners Proved It
Elegant experiments with entangled light have laid bare a profound mystery at the heart of reality
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5729
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Parodite »

Doc wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:17 am https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... proved-it/
The Universe Is Not Locally Real, and the Physics Nobel Prize Winners Proved It
Elegant experiments with entangled light have laid bare a profound mystery at the heart of reality
The devil, if he exists, probably hides in the details. Didn't read into the details so I might miss the demonic bastard. But it seems like something those three guys did already many years ago, is now rewarded "finally". It seems to me a stunt to get more funds for very expensive technology that is still based on too many assumptions to make the funding easy.

The scientific status and empirical solidification of "entangled light" seems to me comparable to that of dark matter: something is going on there measurably that doesn't quite fit in yet; we just don't really know yet what exactly is going on.

Like I said, the good news is that all that money invested in quantum computing and quantum encryption technology based on those assumptions, will one day prove them right or wrong. Billions invested will have a wonderful return of investment or will be wasted because "quantum entanglement" is not what it appeared to be, as the "collapse of the wave function" will turn out not to be anything physical at all. I would bet half my savings on the latter.

As for other claims such as "the local is not real": I don't even read that kind of stuff anymore. Quantum autism that tries make sense of life is all that it is.
Deep down I'm very superficial
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12624
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Doc »

Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm
Doc wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:17 am https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... proved-it/
The Universe Is Not Locally Real, and the Physics Nobel Prize Winners Proved It
Elegant experiments with entangled light have laid bare a profound mystery at the heart of reality
The devil, if he exists, probably hides in the details. Didn't read into the details so I might miss the demonic bastard. But it seems like something those three guys did already many years ago, is now rewarded "finally". It seems to me a stunt to get more funds for very expensive technology that is still based on too many assumptions to make the funding easy.

The scientific status and empirical solidification of "entangled light" seems to me comparable to that of dark matter: something is going on there measurably that doesn't quite fit in yet; we just don't really know yet what exactly is going on.

Like I said, the good news is that all that money invested in quantum computing and quantum encryption technology based on those assumptions, will one day prove them right or wrong. Billions invested will have a wonderful return of investment or will be wasted because "quantum entanglement" is not what it appeared to be, as the "collapse of the wave function" will turn out not to be anything physical at all. I would bet half my savings on the latter.

As for other claims such as "the local is not real": I don't even read that kind of stuff anymore. Quantum autism that tries make sense of life is all that it is.
My take away (reality or not) is that there are multiverses, but they aren't real as they are just part of the quantum wave function of the universe. :D
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27532
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Typhoon »

Doc wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:17 am https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... proved-it/
The Universe Is Not Locally Real, and the Physics Nobel Prize Winners Proved It
Elegant experiments with entangled light have laid bare a profound mystery at the heart of reality
Today, quantum information science is among the most vibrant and impactful subfields in all of physics. It links Einstein’s general theory of relativity with quantum mechanics via the still-mysterious behavior of black holes.
This claimed linkage is called "It from Qubit" and is steaming bullsh*t.

Also, quantum entanglement, in general, and Bell's Theorem, specifically, says nothing about "multiverses", a speculation that needs to be distinguished from the "many worlds" speculation.

From a leading researcher in quantum computing:
But you might be able to figure out some properties of quantum gravity from quantum information (just like you’re able to figure out a few properties of classical physics from thermodynamics) even though I think it’s very improbable that you’ll be able to derive a unique, complete theory of quantum gravity from it. Still, figuring out exactly what quantum information tells you about quantum gravity seems like a worthwhile research endeavor to me.

I have no idea whether the It from Qubit people know this and are indulging in exaggerated hype about deriving quantum gravity from quantum information merely to get more publicity and more funding, or if they have simply deluded themselves. If anybody has any clues as to the answer to this, I’d love to hear them.
APS | Nobel Prize: Quantum Entanglement Unveiled

Anyways, Bell's Theoren and its experimental tests are brilliant work.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5729
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Parodite »

Sort of like safe spaces for the disillusioned :P
Deep down I'm very superficial
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27532
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Typhoon »

Accidentally deleted a post, by "Doc", I think, by hitting edit instead of reply and then delete. Sorry.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12624
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Doc »

Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:47 pm Sort of like safe spaces for the disillusioned :P
Exactly!! Or not!! :P
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27532
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Typhoon »

Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm
Doc wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:17 am https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... proved-it/
The Universe Is Not Locally Real, and the Physics Nobel Prize Winners Proved It
Elegant experiments with entangled light have laid bare a profound mystery at the heart of reality
The devil, if he exists, probably hides in the details. Didn't read into the details so I might miss the demonic bastard. But it seems like something those three guys did already many years ago, is now rewarded "finally". It seems to me a stunt to get more funds for very expensive technology that is still based on too many assumptions to make the funding easy.

The scientific status and empirical solidification of "entangled light" seems to me comparable to that of dark matter: something is going on there measurably that doesn't quite fit in yet; we just don't really know yet what exactly is going on.
Whether or not you approve of it does not matter. Quantum entanglement as a key aspect of quantum mechanics has now been established by experiments - which were honoured by this year's Nobel awards.

Direct experimental searches for dark matter have, to-date, found nothing and have only set limits on types of possible dark matter.
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm Like I said, the good news is that all that money invested in quantum computing and quantum encryption technology based on those assumptions, will one day prove them right or wrong. Billions invested will have a wonderful return of investment or will be wasted because "quantum entanglement" is not what it appeared to be, as the "collapse of the wave function" will turn out not to be anything physical at all. I would bet half my savings on the latter.
Backwards. Quantum entanglement has been now repeatedly demonstrated. Whether or not it can be applied to computing, etm., remains to be seen.
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm As for other claims such as "the local is not real": I don't even read that kind of stuff anymore. Quantum autism that tries make sense of life is all that it is.
Unfortunately, aside physics.aps.org and the occasional article in Quanta Magazine, most popular reporting on physics is crap.
The decline in the quality of Sci Am over the decades has been remarkable.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5729
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Parodite »

I know quantum entanglement is considered to be demonstrated, even over and over again but I don't buy it. Best would be if all those billions now invested in developing quantum computers and quantum cryptography will once and for all settle the issue.

It indeed may all work and if not, the failure will probably be explained away with decoherence as the technical limiting factor.

I doubt that a complete failure to engineer the tech will convince the quantum entanglement acolytes that they had something wrong from the get go. That all those experiments did not demonstrate quantum entanglement but something different yet to be discovered. Which would then make new discoveries possible.

That 2022 Nobel prize would still be justified however, because it spurred the tech industry to see if it all really works, and if not finding out why not is also a step closer.
Deep down I'm very superficial
crashtech66
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:42 am

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by crashtech66 »

I'm not sure what's not to buy about rigorous empirical observations other than they're telling us we need to learn more. Lots of people wanted to believe we were being fooled by these observations made at the limit of our ability to do so, yet no one has been able to disprove them. They just keep getting confirmed. So if you don't buy it, you're hypothesizing that there is some kind of systematic flaw in the very way we are able to view the universe. Maybe that is the point.
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5729
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Parodite »

crashtech66 wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:10 am I'm not sure what's not to buy about rigorous empirical observations other than they're telling us we need to learn more.
Of course, empirical science 101.
Lots of people wanted to believe we were being fooled by these observations made at the limit of our ability to do so, yet no one has been able to disprove them.
To repeat empirical observations at the limit of our ability is exactly what is happening here. Which is the only way out of the quantum quagmire, the psychotic talk like cats being both dead and alive, confusing the mathematical wave function with the physical reality that it describes, "consciousness collapsing the wave function when you observe something" nonsense, split personality multi-universes, quantum entanglement explained with insane analogies like two entangled particles being like twins...existing as two different persons but still connected in a non-local telepathic way, all kinds of quantum voodoo emerging in philosophies about consciousness. Within the background always that grin: "Well, in the final analysis, just give up trying to understand these counter-intuitive experimental results.. Just be happy the math works!"

If one drops all the nonsense, amateurish explanations, what remains is indeed the question what can be learned, concluded from those experiments the Nobel prize 2022 winners performed, and similar experiments in other labs like one in the Netherlands I believe that confirmed same.

Quantum entanglement is key here, "the collapse of the wave function" less so. Time will tell if quantum computers and quantum cryptography have any real meat on their bones in the future. Maybe quantum entanglement is indeed proven to be a physical reality but too difficult to create applied technology with. However, it could still be the case that not only there will be no tech with meat on these quantum bones, but that it is also discovered why it won't work because quantum entanglement is not real: something else is going on that gives the same results.

Also, understanding non-locality is just in its infancy; considering two (or more) entangled particles as one quantum object no matter how far apart in spacetime might just be a first and arbitrary way of trying to understand what actually happens. That might change in the future. I would be not in the least surprised if that happens.
They just keep getting confirmed. So if you don't buy it, you're hypothesizing that there is some kind of systematic flaw in the very way we are able to view the universe. Maybe that is the point.
Not really. I just observed for much too long an enormous amount of quantum mechanics inspired crap-talk, insane speculations, psychotic models of reality based on a very limited understanding at the edges of what is understood and not (yet) empirically verified. Scientists struggled hard enough with these issues: maybe now more becomes clear.

The most detrimental effects of premature ejaculative quantum talk are found in philosophy however, devolving in some sort of new-age pink unicorn fantasies or mere high-brow word-salads on par with post-modernism.
Deep down I'm very superficial
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12624
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Doc »

Typhoon wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:01 pm
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm
Doc wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:17 am https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... proved-it/
The Universe Is Not Locally Real, and the Physics Nobel Prize Winners Proved It
Elegant experiments with entangled light have laid bare a profound mystery at the heart of reality
The devil, if he exists, probably hides in the details. Didn't read into the details so I might miss the demonic bastard. But it seems like something those three guys did already many years ago, is now rewarded "finally". It seems to me a stunt to get more funds for very expensive technology that is still based on too many assumptions to make the funding easy.

The scientific status and empirical solidification of "entangled light" seems to me comparable to that of dark matter: something is going on there measurably that doesn't quite fit in yet; we just don't really know yet what exactly is going on.
Whether or not you approve of it does not matter. The theory of quantum entanglement as a key aspect of quantum mechanics has now been established by experiments - which were honoured by this year's Nobel awards.

Direct experimental searches for dark matter have, to-date, found nothing and have only set limits on types of possible dark matter.
I have a question for you on dark energy Typhoon. IS it possible that it isn't that the universe is expanding but rather time in the void between the cosmic web is slowing down?
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm Like I said, the good news is that all that money invested in quantum computing and quantum encryption technology based on those assumptions, will one day prove them right or wrong. Billions invested will have a wonderful return of investment or will be wasted because "quantum entanglement" is not what it appeared to be, as the "collapse of the wave function" will turn out not to be anything physical at all. I would bet half my savings on the latter.
Backwards. Quantum entanglement has been now repeatedly demonstrated. Whether or not it can be applied to computing, etm., remains to be seen.
<---this. Yes the practicality of making a quatum computer that can outperform a digital computer is questionable. If only because quantum entanglement is very hard to do because maintaining the entanglement for any useful length of time is very very difficult. AS I recall 100's of millions of entanglements degrade to their non entangled states for every one that does not.
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm As for other claims such as "the local is not real": I don't even read that kind of stuff anymore. Quantum autism that tries make sense of life is all that it is.
Unfortunately, aside physics.aps.org and the occasional article in Quanta Magazine, most popular reporting on physics is crap.
The decline in the quality of Sci Am over the decades has been remarkable.
Yes indeed. I was watching an otherwise bright physicist online giving a lecture. In the middle of the lecture he went off on a wild side tangent about woke politics. At that point I turned it off.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27532
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Typhoon »

Doc wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:42 pm
Typhoon wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:01 pm
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm
Doc wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:17 am https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... proved-it/
The Universe Is Not Locally Real, and the Physics Nobel Prize Winners Proved It
Elegant experiments with entangled light have laid bare a profound mystery at the heart of reality
The devil, if he exists, probably hides in the details. Didn't read into the details so I might miss the demonic bastard. But it seems like something those three guys did already many years ago, is now rewarded "finally". It seems to me a stunt to get more funds for very expensive technology that is still based on too many assumptions to make the funding easy.

The scientific status and empirical solidification of "entangled light" seems to me comparable to that of dark matter: something is going on there measurably that doesn't quite fit in yet; we just don't really know yet what exactly is going on.
Whether or not you approve of it does not matter. The theory of quantum entanglement as a key aspect of quantum mechanics has now been established by experiments - which were honoured by this year's Nobel awards.

Direct experimental searches for dark matter have, to-date, found nothing and have only set limits on types of possible dark matter.
I have a question for you on dark energy Typhoon. IS it possible that it isn't that the universe is expanding but rather time in the void between the cosmic web is slowing down?
No, it's not. If time were slowing down, then the measurement of the speed of light would change over time - it hasn't.
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm Like I said, the good news is that all that money invested in quantum computing and quantum encryption technology based on those assumptions, will one day prove them right or wrong. Billions invested will have a wonderful return of investment or will be wasted because "quantum entanglement" is not what it appeared to be, as the "collapse of the wave function" will turn out not to be anything physical at all. I would bet half my savings on the latter.
Backwards. Quantum entanglement has been now repeatedly demonstrated. Whether or not it can be applied to computing, etm., remains to be seen.
<---this. Yes the practicality of making a quatum computer that can outperform a digital computer is questionable. If only because quantum entanglement is very hard to do because maintaining the entanglement for any useful length of time is very very difficult. AS I recall 100's of millions of entanglements degrade to their non entangled states for every one that does not.
Quite right.
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm As for other claims such as "the local is not real": I don't even read that kind of stuff anymore. Quantum autism that tries make sense of life is all that it is.
Unfortunately, aside physics.aps.org and the occasional article in Quanta Magazine, most popular reporting on physics is crap.
The decline in the quality of Sci Am over the decades has been remarkable.
Yes indeed. I was watching an otherwise bright physicist online giving a lecture. In the middle of the lecture he went off on a wild side tangent about woke politics. At that point I turned it off.
I may have told the story before. I was living in the US Midwest when Reagan won his landslide re-election.
However, where I was working, this outcome lead to much wailing, gnashing of teeth, and [figurative] rending of garments, especially by those from the East and West Coasts. That was my introduction to US politics. I remember thinking to myself, "I should have brought smelling salts as a present, instead."
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12624
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Doc »

Typhoon wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:00 am
Doc wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:42 pm
Typhoon wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:01 pm
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm
Doc wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:17 am https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... proved-it/
The Universe Is Not Locally Real, and the Physics Nobel Prize Winners Proved It
Elegant experiments with entangled light have laid bare a profound mystery at the heart of reality
The devil, if he exists, probably hides in the details. Didn't read into the details so I might miss the demonic bastard. But it seems like something those three guys did already many years ago, is now rewarded "finally". It seems to me a stunt to get more funds for very expensive technology that is still based on too many assumptions to make the funding easy.

The scientific status and empirical solidification of "entangled light" seems to me comparable to that of dark matter: something is going on there measurably that doesn't quite fit in yet; we just don't really know yet what exactly is going on.
Whether or not you approve of it does not matter. The theory of quantum entanglement as a key aspect of quantum mechanics has now been established by experiments - which were honoured by this year's Nobel awards.

Direct experimental searches for dark matter have, to-date, found nothing and have only set limits on types of possible dark matter.
I have a question for you on dark energy Typhoon. IS it possible that it isn't that the universe is expanding but rather time in the void between the cosmic web is slowing down?
No, it's not. If time were slowing down, then the measurement of the speed of light would change over time - it hasn't.
In Boise-Einstein condensate the passage of time can stop.(https://groups.seas.harvard.edu/haulab/ ... _light.htm
) There the speed of light can stop.

Yes, but the universe is not a BE condensate.
I am sure it is a crack pot idea,
Any idea in physics is a crackpot idea until one writes down the equations for it.
But I was think more like the wave length of light from far away galaxies being more red shifted than it would be otherwise.


Except that there is good empirical-observational evidence that it's not.

Siegel - General Relativity Rules: Einstein Victorious In Unprecedented Gravitational Redshift Test
Time is said to exchange place with Gravity in a black hole.
Yes,gradually, in a certain sense due to the very large curvature of space-time.]
What I am asking is could there be a similar effect due to something like the lack of mass in the voids between the cosmic web? Perhaps another state of matter due to a extremely low energy state of the Higgs field? That in turn slows the passage of time, making its origin seem to move faster away from us?
No empirical-observational evidence for such an effect.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5729
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Parodite »

From the Harry Potter Quantum Wizardry Handbook

Trick nr 10 - The magic of non-local instantaneous causation while violating Lorentz Invariance

How to create the illusion of faster than light spooky action at a distance with “entangled particles”

- Switch on magic crystal, start pumping around photons until resonance is achieved

- Check exit gate for paired photon take off

- Tell public photon A travels to polarimeter PA and photon B travels to polarimeter PB. They are sufficiently far apart to make sure cheating is impossible

- Explain that photon A and B are like twins being each other’s mirror image. Like a left-hand glove and a right-hand glove

- Claim that before observations at PA and PB, both photons are neither left nor right; that they are “left+right at the same time” and only become really left or right during observations at PA and PB

- Explain that in the setup PB is twice as far away from the magic crystal launchpad as PA: photon A will arrive at PA before photon B arrives at PB

- Claim that once photon A is detected at PA, it is on the spot turned into a right-hand glove or a left-hand glove and that instantly photon B is turned into its correlated opposite (this the amazing weird quantum WOW moment, the rabbit out of the magic hat)

- Do trick, show results and make public marvel at the magic that just happened.

Of course in the above trick, the “entanglement” is only a logical correlation, not physical causation. When those photons left the magic crystal it was locally decided what type they would be. These photons don’t need any hidden variables either of course, because the causation happened locally when they left the crystal.

Given a kid of 10 could have thought of the above, the question is what’s wrong with it. No doubt the collapse of the wave function church and entanglement mob have thought about this and must have devised experiments to completely rule out logical correlation alias "quasi entanglement" as the explanation. It is too obvious.

Superposition would just mean that a particle, a wave-front of particles whatever, travels undisturbed enough for preservation of energy and angular momentum to superconductively hold. No magic there either.
Deep down I'm very superficial
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12624
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Doc »

"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27532
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Typhoon »

Sorry, edited Doc's post again, but at least I kept [and addressed] his points . . .

Need more sleep . . .
Doc wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:40 am
Typhoon wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:00 am
Doc wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:42 pm
Typhoon wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:01 pm
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm
The devil, if he exists, probably hides in the details. Didn't read into the details so I might miss the demonic bastard. But it seems like something those three guys did already many years ago, is now rewarded "finally". It seems to me a stunt to get more funds for very expensive technology that is still based on too many assumptions to make the funding easy.

The scientific status and empirical solidification of "entangled light" seems to me comparable to that of dark matter: something is going on there measurably that doesn't quite fit in yet; we just don't really know yet what exactly is going on.
Whether or not you approve of it does not matter. The theory of quantum entanglement as a key aspect of quantum mechanics has now been established by experiments - which were honoured by this year's Nobel awards.

Direct experimental searches for dark matter have, to-date, found nothing and have only set limits on types of possible dark matter.
I have a question for you on dark energy Typhoon. IS it possible that it isn't that the universe is expanding but rather time in the void between the cosmic web is slowing down?
No, it's not. If time were slowing down, then the measurement of the speed of light would change over time - it hasn't.
In Boise-Einstein condensate the passage of time can stop.(https://groups.seas.harvard.edu/haulab/ ... _light.htm
) There the speed of light can stop.

Typhoon: Yes, but the universe is not a BE condensate.
I am sure it is a crack pot idea,
Typhoon: Any idea in physics is a crackpot idea until one writes down the equations for it.
But I was think more like the wave length of light from far away galaxies being more red shifted than it would be otherwise.


Typhoon: Except that there is good empirical-observational evidence that it's not.

Siegel - General Relativity Rules: Einstein Victorious In Unprecedented Gravitational Redshift Test
Time is said to exchange place with Gravity in a black hole.
Typhoon: Yes, gradually, in a certain sense due to the very large curvature of space-time.
What I am asking is could there be a similar effect due to something like the lack of mass in the voids between the cosmic web? Perhaps another state of matter due to a extremely low energy state of the Higgs field? That in turn slows the passage of time, making its origin seem to move faster away from us?
Typhoon: No empirical-observational evidence for such an effect.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12624
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Doc »

Typhoon wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:15 am Sorry, edited Doc's post again, but at least I kept [and addressed] his points . . .

Need more sleep . . .
Doc wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:40 am
Typhoon wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:00 am
Doc wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:42 pm
Typhoon wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:01 pm
Parodite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:05 pm

The devil, if he exists, probably hides in the details. Didn't read into the details so I might miss the demonic bastard. But it seems like something those three guys did already many years ago, is now rewarded "finally". It seems to me a stunt to get more funds for very expensive technology that is still based on too many assumptions to make the funding easy.

The scientific status and empirical solidification of "entangled light" seems to me comparable to that of dark matter: something is going on there measurably that doesn't quite fit in yet; we just don't really know yet what exactly is going on.
Whether or not you approve of it does not matter. The theory of quantum entanglement as a key aspect of quantum mechanics has now been established by experiments - which were honoured by this year's Nobel awards.

Direct experimental searches for dark matter have, to-date, found nothing and have only set limits on types of possible dark matter.
I have a question for you on dark energy Typhoon. IS it possible that it isn't that the universe is expanding but rather time in the void between the cosmic web is slowing down?
No, it's not. If time were slowing down, then the measurement of the speed of light would change over time - it hasn't.
In Boise-Einstein condensate the passage of time can stop.(https://groups.seas.harvard.edu/haulab/ ... _light.htm
) There the speed of light can stop.

Typhoon: Yes, but the universe is not a BE condensate.
I am sure it is a crack pot idea,
Typhoon: Any idea in physics is a crackpot idea until one writes down the equations for it.
But I was think more like the wave length of light from far away galaxies being more red shifted than it would be otherwise.


Typhoon: Except that there is good empirical-observational evidence that it's not.

Siegel - General Relativity Rules: Einstein Victorious In Unprecedented Gravitational Redshift Test
Time is said to exchange place with Gravity in a black hole.
Typhoon: Yes, gradually, in a certain sense due to the very large curvature of space-time.
What I am asking is could there be a similar effect due to something like the lack of mass in the voids between the cosmic web? Perhaps another state of matter due to a extremely low energy state of the Higgs field? That in turn slows the passage of time, making its origin seem to move faster away from us?
Typhoon: No empirical-observational evidence for such an effect.
But how could empirical evidence be practicable found? When we look out into the universe we look from relatively a single point. If you could look at a pulsar, which I believe is the standard way of determining distance on vast scales, through the Cosmic web at a distance Pulsar. Then look at it through a large void perhaps you could definitively have evidence. But otherwise the measurement itself is in question.

I am sorry if this is a ignorant question, but I am relatively a novice. I know of only a small fraction of the experiments made and even if I knew of all, the majority of them I probably would not understand.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5729
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Parodite »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmG2ah5Df4g

MmG2ah5Df4g

Very nice visualisation!

Moving away from particle obsession with its associated quantum weirdnesses, back to the elephant in every room that is studied in QFT.
Deep down I'm very superficial
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5729
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Parodite »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBLVtCYHVO8

CBLVtCYHVO8

Looks like all that money is better spent on nuclear energy development.
Deep down I'm very superficial
User avatar
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
Posts: 2166
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

You need quantum something or other in order to keep the Chinese from eating your lunch..... and Sabine is delightfully salty.....;)........
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27532
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Typhoon »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:35 am You need quantum something or other in order to keep the Chinese from eating your lunch..... and Sabine is delightfully salty.....;)........
A classic example of someone opining far outside their circle of supposed expertise.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27532
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics

Post by Typhoon »

Parodite wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:48 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmG2ah5Df4g

MmG2ah5Df4g

Very nice visualisation!

Moving away from particle obsession with its associated quantum weirdnesses, back to the elephant in every room that is studied in QFT.
Probability amplitudes, not probabilities..
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Post Reply