Egypt

noddy
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Re: Egypt

Post by noddy »

Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:if you want to integrate into a muslim community...
That's where the problem starts. Communities are not Muslim, Christian, Socialist or Liberal. People - individuals - are. Of course if everybody in a community is Muslim, they tend to do the Muslim thing together. But a Christian would not be outside that community because he wasn't Muslim. He just would not join the others in the specifically religious activities, but would live with them, work with them, eat with them, participate with them in choosing their rulers, etc. A community is not the same thing as a church, or a political party, or a football club. A community is a social and political entity which must be all-inclusive. Even the most civilized people seem to forget this sometimes...
the ole treat your neighbour as your family thing huh - tis a nice thought and i wouldnt argue against it on any level.

i wouldnt go expecting it either, people have funny ways of dealing with this particular problem and most of them involve certain symbols to help identify which people are worthy neighbours and which are not.

those symbols tend to manifest themselves as strict definitions on what one must believe before one can be trusted.

it would be nice if you had solved this particular conundrum, you could be the next great prophet who succeeded when all others have failed.
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Torchwood
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Re: Egypt

Post by Torchwood »

One always wondered if Islamist parties' dedication to democracy was akin to that of a certain German party in 1932, but one thing is now certain: they will learn that they will not be allowed to gain power peacefully, so that leaves the alternative.

Shades of Algeria in 1991, one hopes not. It would have been wiser to continue to allow the Muslim Brotherhood rule to self destruct.
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Endovelico
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Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

noddy wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:if you want to integrate into a muslim community...
That's where the problem starts. Communities are not Muslim, Christian, Socialist or Liberal. People - individuals - are. Of course if everybody in a community is Muslim, they tend to do the Muslim thing together. But a Christian would not be outside that community because he wasn't Muslim. He just would not join the others in the specifically religious activities, but would live with them, work with them, eat with them, participate with them in choosing their rulers, etc. A community is not the same thing as a church, or a political party, or a football club. A community is a social and political entity which must be all-inclusive. Even the most civilized people seem to forget this sometimes...
the ole treat your neighbour as your family thing huh - tis a nice thought and i wouldnt argue against it on any level.

i wouldnt go expecting it either, people have funny ways of dealing with this particular problem and most of them involve certain symbols to help identify which people are worthy neighbours and which are not.

those symbols tend to manifest themselves as strict definitions on what one must believe before one can be trusted.

it would be nice if you had solved this particular conundrum, you could be the next great prophet who succeeded when all others have failed.

Image

I know this is important to many people, but can't we talk it over a bit?... :roll:
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Egypt

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote: If anything this shows that Egyptians border the idiotic.
Well, no more idiotic than the next country. Morsi had an approval rating of %46 in April, which is comparable to Obama's today. Democracy means you're governed by a party that around half of the country (at best) didn't vote for, and people tend to be sore losers. The problem is that a) there is enough instability to actually oust the president, which there isn't in many countries, and b) the global community will tolerate and even encourage or actively instigate coups in non-western countries.
Mursi was nothing but an interim stooge.
As if the military could have done anything without getting the blessings of Ambassador Extraordinary Patterson.
I think they would have picked another stooge if they could have, and I don't think the US has as much pull as all that. They send billions to the Egyptian military, but what choice do they have? Americans are so terrified of Islamists and without the foreign-funded army the country would be under Islamist control indefinitely. Short of making Bin Laden's head on a robot body the new president the army can do pretty much wahtever they want and Washington will keep sending cheques. Hell, they murdered and tortured for decades, sometimes directly on behalf of the US. This is a partnership with roots.

Ideally there would be no foreign military aid.
Mursi was the interim stooge. This Sisi guy is the real stooge. A darling of the Israeli's by the way.
I heard the Egyptian ambassador to Washington today say how Sisi was put in place by Mursi himself so any allegations that the army is taking sides are unfounded. Well, hogwash. Mursi did not appoint him but rather there was a deal done with the military for Tantawi to step aside and Sisi take over. The US is not afraid on 'Islamists'. They need each other.



But I will hand it to the planners. They for sure knew how to steer the foolish populace.


What do you figure the Egyptians should have done? The Islamists want more Islamism, Western racists and Islamophobes just want as many Arabs to suffer and die as possible, but what should Egyptians and progressive types who want what's best for Egypt be rooting for?
Too late for that. They should have rejected the speedy elections first. One does not need to be very sharp to realize that it takes a while to purge the system of the corrupt and stake holders. The military and former regime are the same entity. These guys who are cheering for the military's coup were the first condemn the military when it interfered the first time. Now they are friends.

I guess now we now who really holds the reigns of power in Egypt.

I said it before and will say it again. They do not know what they want. These people in the street are driven like sheep. First they want a democracy. When they get it, they want to overturn their own participation. This guy did not have a chance to do anything. One year in office and the supposed liberal press is telling us that he is even more hated than Mubarak. What a joke...

What are they expecting to happen next? Freedom and French fries? An overturning of the status quo?

I am not impressed by Egyptians anymore. On the contrary, they deserve what they have coming. I hate to say it.
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Ammianus
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Re: Egypt

Post by Ammianus »

Two years on and I am still awed by the power of the Arab Revolution to make, among other things, Dan a enthusiastic believer in Arab democracy and Hans Bulvai into an inveterate Arab hater.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Egypt

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Hans Bulvai wrote:.

I am not impressed by Egyptians anymore. On the contrary, they deserve what they have coming. I hate to say it.

.



Hans, you need "balls of steel" to say something and stick last 35 years with it no matter what .. and .. send satellite to orbit (passing over Tel Aviv :lol: ) and nobody daring touching you :D .. and .. look @ your enemies falling one by one (thank you America)


Persian nation must be honored, to stand it's ground, and, 2B fair, thank you Mr. Ayatollahs


Said many times, Arab (speaking) nations not yet realized who their REAL enemy is, once this "Christal clear", things will be much easier

Fighting Shia, fighting Iran, fighting an Arab (speaking) patriot but in bed with Cameron and Erdogan (with the colonial history) .. all those traitors, Qatari (baby) monkey, Al Saud wahhabi and and trained in British (or CIA) military academy not to fight Iran, but their own people


Things will not become better B4 Arabs have straightened their priorities




.
Ammianus
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Re: Egypt

Post by Ammianus »

Adam Garfinkle has some tough barbs to lob that have more than a shade of truth:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/garfinkle/
Adam Garfinkle From the very beginning of the so-called revolution in Egypt, I have taken some pains to throw a wet mop in the face of all those clueless Western commentators who believed that democracy, as we understand it, let alone liberal democracy, was at hand in Egypt—or anywhere else in the Arab world save maybe Tunisia. I said at the time in this blog—you can look it up—that the likelihood of any Arab country ending up as a genuine democracy was small, that opportunities for authoritarian-minded political Islam of many shapes and sizes to thrive were large, and, specifically in Egypt, that betting on twittering 20-something “democrats” to outduel the Army over time was a big-time losing proposition. Just before the election of Mohamed Morsi, in June of 2012, I had this to say in conclusion to a post entitled “The Muddled East (Updated)”: “[W]hen all is said and done, post-revolutionary Egypt will function a whole lot like pre-revolutionary Egypt. It may look a little or a lot different, depending on the density of the constitutional veil now being manufactured, but it won’t really be different.” The Army, in other words, would prevail one way or another.
As editor of The American Interest I have imposed my view on the magazine, too. Take a look back at our May/June 2011 issue and you’ll see, from the cover to the inside, that we were very skeptical of all the breathless optimism in the air about the riotously misnamed “Arab Spring.” Compare and contrast with other publications: I dare you.

Why tell you this now? Because just a few hours ago the Egyptian Minister of Defense, General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, issued an ultimatum to the Morsi government: Fix this ugly roiling mess within 48 hours or you’re breakfast foule. (If you don’t know what this is, MSM guy or gal, it means you’ve never been to Egypt, and you probably don’t know a fava bean from a blue-eyed fart.)

Morsi can’t fix anything, of course, whether in 48 hours or in 48 days. During yesterday’s massive demonstrations the police stepped aside while crowds torched the Muslim Brotherhood headquarters building in Cairo. He doesn’t control the guns, neither in the Army, the police or the para-military police. Four members of his cabinet resigned before al-Sisi’s ultimatum, knowing it was coming. The Army is back, exactly as I said it would be… sort of.

* * *

What do I mean by “sort of”? I will tell you, but first a brief analysis of what has gone so very wrong for Morsi.

I can be brief because my TAI colleague, Walter Russell Mead, has most of the “right stuff” laid down in his excellent blog post from June 29, “A Light Fails in Egypt.” Read it if you haven’t yet. The one thing that’s missing from this fine analysis, and that ties together a lot of the descriptive elements in it, is that Egypt is experiencing a headlong bureaucratic/administrative collapse. It’s important, I think, to understand this, and the main reasons for it.

Since July 1952, increasingly over time, the Army ran the economy. It ran—indeed, it created and it was—the Egyptian deep state. Since Field Marshal Tantawi and the elders were pushed off the stage nearly a year ago, the non-military elements of the state have tried to run what is, on balance, a highly centralized, quasi-socialist apparatus. (Only the local non-monetarized subsistence agricultural economy still works, and even it doesn’t work very well thanks to the state’s incessant meddling in it over the years.) Everything else is collapsing because the sectarian/patriarchal patronage networks that have formed over the past year consist of people who have no idea whatsoever how to run anything. It’s similar, on a much, much larger scale, to what’s been happening in Libya since Qaddafi.

Years ago a clever and truth-telling fellow named David Lamb devised what he called the IBM syndrome to describe political culture in Egypt and the Arab world. The “I” stands for “inshallah“, may God will it: in other words, fatalism. The “B” stands for “bokr“—tomorrow morning, or just tomorrow: suggestive of an extremely elastic, pre-modern perception of time, vaguely akin to some uses of the Spanish word mañana. The “M” stands for “malesh“, which is untranslatable, but which kind of means “whatever”, “never mind” or “fagetaboutit”: not my job, someone else will take care of it, or not, who cares? What difference does it make?

Now, it is very politically incorrect to say this, but I will say it anyway: A typical Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood rank-and-file type now saddled up on the gyrating entrails of the Egyptian state bureaucracy not only is afflicted with the IBM syndrome, but he does not accept or understand causality as we use the word. Takfiris assert that God recreates the universe in full each instant, so there is no need for causality, since that would imply a diminution of God’s power. He also does not accept the existence of an objective fact separate from how he feels about it, and if he should feel negatively disposed toward the fact, whatever it is, the fact can be made simply to disappear. (Want an example, from elsewhere? Easy: When the mother of the Tsarnaev brothers denied that her sons could be murderers or terrorists, she made a fact disappear, right before her eyes. Some anthropologists call this a votive act, and in some places it is really quite common. Egypt is one of those places.) And he usually cannot navigate even a simple syllogism.

In short, we are talking about mostly culturally pre-modern people who flat-out flunk abstraction. They cannot run a centralized modern state. Obviously, this does not apply to all MB types, and certainly it does not apply to all Egyptians; but it applies to enough of them currently in the state administrative sector to matter. If you don’t believe me, ask an Egyptian who does have a decent Western education. You’ll get quite an enlightening earful.

As it happens, the Army in Egypt is the only institution in the history of the country, at least since Tutankhamun’s time, that does not suffer utterly from the IBM syndrome. That’s probably because its members have long been exposed to modern technology in the form of weaponry and had to adapt themselves to its exigencies—something they have not done especially well, true, but the effort has nevertheless put them a light year or so ahead of the rest of country (save for the elite 2 percent who have Western educations… but, as Walter said, probably most of them live and work abroad). At least the senior Army types understand agency, time and the requisites of basic organizational order. And that is why, from the start of Egypt’s most recent political adventure, I have insisted that the Army will end up running the country. Because, the way it’s been made path dependent on a gigantic dirigiste bureaucracy since Nasser’s time, no one else can.

* * *

Which brings me to what I mean by “sort of.”

Egypt is such a mess—and was becoming that mess in Mubarak’s later years—that the Army developed an interest in not being as directly involved as before in day-to-day affairs, lest blame fall upon it for the state’s manifest and multiple failures. So I thought last summer that the Army would accept a civilian-led, democratically elected government so long as every major actor knew where the red lines were. And the main red lines as far as the Army was concerned were fourfold: We decide our own promotions and retirements; we control our own budget—once we tell you what it is; we control foreign and national security policy; and you keep your hands off the Army-controlled parastatals in the economy that represent our “pension plan”, so to speak.

I was right about that, but I (as well as many smart Egyptians I know) underestimated how fast Morsi would be able to consolidate some charismatic authority, and thus show himself able to wriggle out from under those red lines. I was surprised by how fast Field Marshal Tantawi and company were dispatched from the scene, and I wasn’t sure that the younger generation of officers was as steeled as the old vets, many of whom still remembered King Farouk and the Brits.

Maybe they were all along. Maybe they were just waiting for Morsi and the Brotherhood to hang themselves on the ropes of their own ineptitude and authoritarian instincts. I have heard this theory from some Egyptians. But maybe things just deteriorated faster and further than anyone thought they would. Whatever the case, the Army is now poised to again be arbiter of Egypt’s political future.

So what will happen next? Anyone who claims to be sure is not to be taken seriously. But here’s my hunch.

The Army will not seek to rule formally or openly. Rather, it will convene all the major political forces and dictate a new arrangement for a transitional authority. (A transition to what? Too soon even to ask; besides, as Adam Ulam once said, nothing endures in politics like the provisional.) The Muslim Brotherhood will be part of the arrangement, to be sure, and maybe Morsi himself will be included in the new pantheon—partly because there is no delicate constitutional way to depose him. Other non-MB civilian names will be named, however, as minister of this and that—including maybe Amr Moussa, Mohamed elBaradei and the like. But the senior echelons of the military will be calling the major shots. The deep state will once again, slowly or not-so-slowly but surely, come under the full direction of the Army. The gas lines will end.

Alas, this will not summarily solve Egypt’s problems, either the immediate ones or the longer-term ones. There will still be “revolutionaries” out in the street 48 and 72 hours from now, most likely, although keeping the MB in the mix ought to diminish outright armed opposition to the new arrangement. Will the Army shoot such “revolutionaries” to restore order? Maybe, and if it shoots the right people—and not too many of them (Egyptians are not like Iraqis; they don’t enjoy violence for its own sake)—most Egyptians will silently applaud. (The Obama Administration’s warning that Morsi should not shoot protestors is really passing strange: How would he do that, now that the police and Army are pretty much beyond his command?!)

But there will still be no money, and the growing strain on the country’s ability to feed itself will not abate just because of the Army-directed musical chairs soon to come in Cairo. As long as the Muslim Brotherhood government stood, the Qataris have been willing to kick in a few billion dollars a month, but they are not likely to continue that with the de facto return of the Army.

One item on the American “to do” list, therefore, if only our President and Secretary of State can reposition their attention away from their respective obsessions with profoundly old business (I speak of the atavistic perseverations with U.S.-Russian arms control and the Arab-Israeli conflict), would be to twist some Saudi and Emirati arms to replace that money before all Hobbesean hell breaks lose in Egypt. Because it otherwise will, and it may do so anyway.

* * *

Most Americans who have cared to observe what has been happening in Egypt over the past two years do what most Americans always do in the face of telegenic foreign dramas: They superimpose their own unselfaware frames of reference, which are parochial but are presumed to be universal, onto others, where they have neither cultural nor historical reasons for being. And then, seeing what they want to see, and applying the only verbs and nouns they know to describe it, they wonder why they don’t have a clue as to what is happening, or why it is happening.

An example: Some American observers chide the Obama Administration for pushing Mubarak from power because that’s what enabled the rise of political Islam in Egypt; but other observers chide the Administration for not distancing itself faster from the old regime and racing to embrace the new democracy, so that unseemly behavior, like the Morsi government’s conviction of pro-democracy Egyptian and American NGO workers, could have been averted via sincere “engagement.” Both of these views border on the ridiculous.First, the U.S. Government did not push Mubarak from power; betraying a functioning ally was not its sin. Its sin, its failure, which goes back some years, is that it failed to encourage and support Egyptians’ efforts to plan for the inevitable transition to a post-Mubarak era—and failing that to make our own prophylactic plans for that eventuality. Or do those who argue that we pushed Mubarak from power think that the man was going to live and thrive forever? Have they never seen an actuarial chart? He was 83 and in poor health when he was deposed, for heaven’s sake; the place was falling apart apace with our “ally” infirmly in place.

Second, the idea that the U.S. government could ever have been a decisive factor in Egyptian domestic politics in the throes of upheaval is preposterous. We had no power to make a Muslim Brotherhood government less authoritarian-minded than it was going to be. We had no power to understand, let alone control, the swirling fluid forces of Egyptian society once the bulwarks of Mubarak’s era gave way. We certainly had no power to come to the rescue of a young democracy, insofar as it ever existed. No social receptacle existed to collect the few precious drops of Egyptian democracy there were and turn them into a powerful political force. Between the Army to the one side and the Brotherhood to the other, the idea that a single relatively free election could birth a democracy, in a country with virtually no democratic habits of the heart, testifies only to the cartoonish understanding behind that idea.

This drama has never been about the fate of democracy or liberal attitudes and institutions. That was our passion play, not Egypt’s. This drama has always been about the fractionation and dissipation of traditional sources of social authority in a country that has tried and failed now at least three times since Napoleon’s 1799 invasion to come to terms with the press of modernity. There has been significant and positive social change in Egypt in recent years, but not enough of it to command the political heights–not yet. And maybe not ever, for it has now come down, in the summer of 2013, to the survival of order, any order. It has vanishingly little to do at this point with elections or constitutions or certainly with the U.S.-Egyptian bilateral relationship. American pressmen who think otherwise suffer from the standard failure of our Enlightenment-“lite” imagination.

I’m not rooting these days for the survival of democracy in Egypt because, as Walter Lippmann once wrote, it is a disease of the soul to be in love with impossible things. I am rooting only for the survival of civilization.
Ooooh, splashes of Spengler on those red ones!
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Endovelico
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Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

The disease of some peoples is too much religion. In fact, an obsession with religion, no matter which religion, although it tends to be Islam. People who believe too seriously that God can do anything or, even worse, that God will do anything, will tend to leave things to God. Inshallah. That's why secularism is essential for Middle East progress. Maybe God can do anything, if He is so inclined. But we are the ones who must do it. Religion can be a good thing when it helps people focus on being good, constructive, tolerant. Otherwise it is like heroin to an heroin addict. It turns you on but will lead to your death by OD... Some genetic engineering would be welcome...
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Endovelico
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Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

For Islamists, Dire Lessons on Politics and Power
By David D. Kirkpatrick and Ben Hubbard

CAIRO — Sheik Mohamed Abu Sidra had watched in exasperation for months as President Mohamed Morsi and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood bounced from one debilitating political battle to another.

“The Brotherhood went too fast, they tried to take too much,” Sheik Abu Sidra, an influential ultraconservative Islamist in Benghazi, Libya, said Thursday, a day after the Egyptian military deposed and detained Mr. Morsi and began arresting his Brotherhood allies.

But at the same time, Sheik Abu Sidra said, Mr. Morsi’s overthrow had made it far more difficult for him to persuade Benghazi’s Islamist militias to put down their weapons and trust in democracy.

“Do you think I can sell that to the people anymore?” he asked. “I have been saying all along, ‘If you want to build Shariah law, come to elections.’ Now they will just say, ‘Look at Egypt,’ and you don’t need to say anything else.”

From Benghazi to Abu Dhabi, Islamists are drawing lessons from Mr. Morsi’s ouster that could shape political Islam for a generation. For some, it demonstrated the futility of democracy in a world dominated by Western powers and their client states. But others, acknowledging that the takeover accompanied a broad popular backlash, also faulted the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood for reaching too fast for so many levers of power.

The Brotherhood’s fall is the greatest in an array of setbacks that have halted the once seemingly unstoppable march of political Islam. As they have moved from opposition to establishment, Islamist parties in Turkey, Tunisia and now Egypt have all been caught up in crises over the secular practicalities of governing like power sharing, urban planning, public security or even keeping the lights on.

Brotherhood leaders — the few who have not been arrested or dropped out of sight — have little doubt about the source of their problems. They say that the Egyptian security forces and bureaucracy conspired to sabotage their rule, and that the generals seized on the chance to topple the Morsi government under the cover of popular anger at the dysfunction of the state.

Their account strikes a chord with fellow Islamists around the region who are all too familiar with the historic turning points when, they say, military crackdowns stole their imminent democratic victories: Egypt under Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1954; Algeria in 1991; and the Palestinian territories in 2006.

“The message will resonate throughout the Muslim world loud and clear: democracy is not for Muslims,” Essam el-Haddad, Mr. Morsi’s foreign policy adviser, warned on his official Web site shortly before the military detained him and cut off all his communication. The overthrow of an elected Islamist government in Egypt, the symbolic heart of the Arab world, Mr. Haddad wrote, would fuel more violent terrorism than the Western wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And he took aim at Western critics of the Islamists. “The silence of all of those voices with an impending military coup is hypocritical,” Mr. Haddad wrote, “and that hypocrisy will not be lost on a large swath of Egyptians, Arabs and Muslims.”

In Egyptian Sinai just hours later, thousands of Islamists rallied under the black flag of jihad and cheered widely at calls for “a war council” to roll back Mr. Morsi’s ouster. “The age of peacefulness is over,” the speaker declared in a video of the rally. “No more peacefulness after today.”

“No more election after today,” the crowd chanted in response.

After a night of deadly clashes at Cairo University that accompanied the takeover, some ultraconservative Islamists gathered there said their experiment in electoral politics — a deviation from God’s law to begin with — had come to a bad end.

“Didn’t we do what they asked,” asked Mahmoud Taha, 40, a merchant. “We don’t believe in democracy to begin with; it’s not part of our ideology. But we accepted it. We followed them, and then this is what they do?”

In Syria, where the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood once hoped to provide a model of moderation and democracy, some fighters battling President Bashar al-Assad now say it is the other way around. Egyptian Islamists “may have to pursue the armed option,” said Firas Filefleh, a rebel fighter in an Islamist brigade in Idlib, in northern Syria. “That may be the only choice, as it was for us in Syria.”

In the United Arab Emirates, where the authoritarian government just sentenced 69 members of a Brotherhood-linked Islamist group to prison in an effort to stop the spread of Arab spring revolts, Islamists said the crackdowns were driving a deeper wedge into their movement.

“The practices that we see today will split the Islamists in half,” said Saeed Nasar Alteneji, a former head of the Emirates group, the Islah association. “There are those who always call for centrism and moderation and peaceful political participation,” he said. “The other group condemns democracy and sees today that the West and others will never accept the ballot box if it brings Islamists to power.”

“And they have lots of evidence of this,” he said, now citing Egypt as well as Algeria.

Other Islamists, though, sought to distance themselves from what they considered the Egyptian Brotherhood’s errors.

As the military takeover began to unfold, Ali Larayedh, the Islamist prime minister of Tunisia, emphasized in a television interview that “an Egypt scenario” was unlikely to befall his Ennahda movement because “our approach is characterized by consensus and partnership.”

Emad al-din al-Rashid, a prominent Syrian Islamist and scholar now based in Istanbul, said that he “expected this to happen” because of the Muslim Brotherhood’s style of governance. “The beginning was a mistake, a sin, and the Brotherhood were running Egypt like they would run a private organization, not a country,” he said. “They shouldn’t have rushed to rule like they did. If they had waited for the second or third elections, the people would have been asking and yearning for them.”

Hisham Krekshi, a senior member of the Libyan Muslim Brotherhood in Tripoli, Libya, said the Egyptian Brotherhood “were not transparent enough. They were not sharing enough with other parties. We have to be sure that we are open, to say, ‘We are all Libyans and we have to accept every rainbow color, to work together.’ ”

Even among Egyptian Islamists there have been signs of dissent from the Brotherhood leadership. The largest ultraconservative party, Al Nour, had urged the Brotherhood to form a broader coalition and then to call early presidential elections, and it finally supported the takeover.

Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh, a relatively liberal former Brotherhood leader and presidential candidate popular among many younger members, also urged Mr. Morsi to step down to defuse the polarization of the country.

But, said Ibrahim Houdaiby, a former Brotherhood member, “the feeling of exclusion might actually lead to the empowerment of a more radical sentiment in the group that says, ‘Look, we abided by the rules, we were elected democratically, and of course we were rejected, and of course by a military coup, not by popular protest.’ ”

Reporting was contributed by Mayy El Sheikh and Kareem Fahim from Cairo; Hala Droubi from Dubai, United Arab Emirates; and Robert F. Worth from Washington.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/world ... d=all&_r=0
“The message will resonate throughout the Muslim world loud and clear: democracy is not for Muslims”

Wrong. Democracy is also for Muslims but may not be used to impose Islamism on those who do not want it...
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Post by monster_gardener »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote: If anything this shows that Egyptians border the idiotic.
Well, no more idiotic than the next country. Morsi had an approval rating of %46 in April, which is comparable to Obama's today. Democracy means you're governed by a party that around half of the country (at best) didn't vote for, and people tend to be sore losers. The problem is that a) there is enough instability to actually oust the president, which there isn't in many countries, and b) the global community will tolerate and even encourage or actively instigate coups in non-western countries.
Mursi was nothing but an interim stooge.
As if the military could have done anything without getting the blessings of Ambassador Extraordinary Patterson.
I think they would have picked another stooge if they could have, and I don't think the US has as much pull as all that. They send billions to the Egyptian military, but what choice do they have? Americans are so terrified of Islamists and without the foreign-funded army the country would be under Islamist control indefinitely. Short of making Bin Laden's head on a robot body the new president the army can do pretty much wahtever they want and Washington will keep sending cheques. Hell, they murdered and tortured for decades, sometimes directly on behalf of the US. This is a partnership with roots.

Ideally there would be no foreign military aid.
Mursi was the interim stooge. This Sisi guy is the real stooge. A darling of the Israeli's by the way.
I heard the Egyptian ambassador to Washington today say how Sisi was put in place by Mursi himself so any allegations that the army is taking sides are unfounded. Well, hogwash. Mursi did not appoint him but rather there was a deal done with the military for Tantawi to step aside and Sisi take over. The US is not afraid on 'Islamists'. They need each other.



But I will hand it to the planners. They for sure knew how to steer the foolish populace.


What do you figure the Egyptians should have done? The Islamists want more Islamism, Western racists and Islamophobes just want as many Arabs to suffer and die as possible, but what should Egyptians and progressive types who want what's best for Egypt be rooting for?
Too late for that. They should have rejected the speedy elections first. One does not need to be very sharp to realize that it takes a while to purge the system of the corrupt and stake holders. The military and former regime are the same entity. These guys who are cheering for the military's coup were the first condemn the military when it interfered the first time. Now they are friends.

I guess now we now who really holds the reigns of power in Egypt.

I said it before and will say it again. They do not know what they want. These people in the street are driven like sheep. First they want a democracy. When they get it, they want to overturn their own participation. This guy did not have a chance to do anything. One year in office and the supposed liberal press is telling us that he is even more hated than Mubarak. What a joke...

What are they expecting to happen next? Freedom and French fries? An overturning of the status quo?

I am not impressed by Egyptians anymore. On the contrary, they deserve what they have coming. I hate to say it.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Hans.
What are they expecting to happen next?
......French fries?
AIUI for many of them, understandably pretty close to that: affordable bread and cooking oil.

AIUI the "Arab Spring" was fueled largely by rising food prices...... Bad weather and speculators on "Wall Street"

I am not impressed by Egyptians anymore. On the contrary, they deserve what they have coming. I hate to say it.
Nothing despicable about wanting food when one is hungry.....*
People do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy his hunger when he is starving.
http://biblehub.com/proverbs/6-30.htm

Wondering what it would cost to bring bread back down to an affordable level....

My guess is less than the mess in Egypt and especially Syria.........

But I could be wrong..........

One irony is that Egypt in Roman times was the breadbasket of Rome......

*Though destroying greenhouses gifted to you is....... Maybe they should have been given to the Egyptians.........
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

Elbaradei to be named Egypt's interim PM

Opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei was chosen as Egypt's interim prime minister, according to sources close to the presidency.

A military source confirmed that the former UN nuclear watchdog chief was to be sworn in later on Saturday, three days after the army overthrew President Mohamed Morsi.

Interim leader Adly Mansour summoned ElBaradei to the presidential palace, the state news agency reported, without giving more details.

The Tamarod (rebellion) campaign had nominated ElBaradei to represent the movement in transition negotiations with the military.

The news came as thousands of Morsi supporters massed in Nasr City and other place across Egypt to reinforce their demand for the reinstatement of the ousted leader.

A senior official in the Freedom and Justice Party, the Muslim Brotherhood's political wing, said he rejected ElBaradei's appointment.

"We reject this coup and all that results from it, including ElBaradei," he told Reuters news agency at an Islamist gathering in northern Cairo.

ElBaradei, who won the Nobel peace prize in 2005 for his work with International Atomic Energy Agency, returned to Egypt in 2010 and became a prominent opponent of former president Hosni Mubarak in the lead-up to the 2011 uprising that overthrew him.

Al Jazeera's Sherine Tadros, reporting from Cairo, said the main question is how much power ElBaradei will have in his new role as interim prime minister.

"[ElBaradei's appointment] is not really a surprise. He was sitting next to General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi when he announced the ouster of President Morsi, which already indicated that ElBaradei was to take up an important role in the new government."

ElBaradei, who resigned from his political party Al Dostour to focus on new role, was to be sworn in at 8pm (18:00 GMT).

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 52978.html
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Azari's Choice ElBardei gets the job........

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
Elbaradei to be named Egypt's interim PM

Opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei was chosen as Egypt's interim prime minister, according to sources close to the presidency.

A military source confirmed that the former UN nuclear watchdog chief was to be sworn in later on Saturday, three days after the army overthrew President Mohamed Morsi.

Interim leader Adly Mansour summoned ElBaradei to the presidential palace, the state news agency reported, without giving more details.

The Tamarod (rebellion) campaign had nominated ElBaradei to represent the movement in transition negotiations with the military.

The news came as thousands of Morsi supporters massed in Nasr City and other place across Egypt to reinforce their demand for the reinstatement of the ousted leader.

A senior official in the Freedom and Justice Party, the Muslim Brotherhood's political wing, said he rejected ElBaradei's appointment.

"We reject this coup and all that results from it, including ElBaradei," he told Reuters news agency at an Islamist gathering in northern Cairo.

ElBaradei, who won the Nobel peace prize in 2005 for his work with International Atomic Energy Agency, returned to Egypt in 2010 and became a prominent opponent of former president Hosni Mubarak in the lead-up to the 2011 uprising that overthrew him.

Al Jazeera's Sherine Tadros, reporting from Cairo, said the main question is how much power ElBaradei will have in his new role as interim prime minister.

"[ElBaradei's appointment] is not really a surprise. He was sitting next to General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi when he announced the ouster of President Morsi, which already indicated that ElBaradei was to take up an important role in the new government."

ElBaradei, who resigned from his political party Al Dostour to focus on new role, was to be sworn in at 8pm (18:00 GMT).

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 52978.html
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endo.

Azari will probably like this.......
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Re: Egypt

Post by Hans Bulvai »

monster_gardener wrote:

What do you figure the Egyptians should have done? The Islamists want more Islamism, Western racists and Islamophobes just want as many Arabs to suffer and die as possible, but what should Egyptians and progressive types who want what's best for Egypt be rooting for?
Too late for that. They should have rejected the speedy elections first. One does not need to be very sharp to realize that it takes a while to purge the system of the corrupt and stake holders. The military and former regime are the same entity. These guys who are cheering for the military's coup were the first condemn the military when it interfered the first time. Now they are friends.

I guess now we now who really holds the reigns of power in Egypt.

I said it before and will say it again. They do not know what they want. These people in the street are driven like sheep. First they want a democracy. When they get it, they want to overturn their own participation. This guy did not have a chance to do anything. One year in office and the supposed liberal press is telling us that he is even more hated than Mubarak. What a joke...

What are they expecting to happen next? Freedom and French fries? An overturning of the status quo?

I am not impressed by Egyptians anymore. On the contrary, they deserve what they have coming. I hate to say it.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Hans.
What are they expecting to happen next?
......French fries?
AIUI for many of them, understandably pretty close to that: affordable bread and cooking oil.

AIUI the "Arab Spring" was fueled largely by rising food prices...... Bad weather and speculators on "Wall Street"
Not what I meant by "French Fries". You have to read between the lines in what I write Monster.
I have nothing against wanting to feed yourself and family. But that is not their main objective.

I am not impressed by Egyptians anymore. On the contrary, they deserve what they have coming. I hate to say it.
Nothing despicable about wanting food when one is hungry.....*
People do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy his hunger when he is starving.
http://biblehub.com/proverbs/6-30.htm

Wondering what it would cost to bring bread back down to an affordable level....

My guess is less than the mess in Egypt and especially Syria.........

But I could be wrong..........

One irony is that Egypt in Roman times was the breadbasket of Rome......

*Though destroying greenhouses gifted to you is....... Maybe they should have been given to the Egyptians.........
Stealing bread to feed yourself and your hungry family a thief does not make you.
Robbing a country for 35 years does. Keeping those in power that made that robbery possible is just plain shortsighted.

Irony is what made the brotherhood popular in the first place is their social services including the half-priced breads at MB owned bakeries. Clinics and schools (both for boys and girls; ditto.

Ultimately they will not get the low-cost bread you speak off. The next guy will sell out to the World Bank, IMF and others and the situation will be even worst. They will get 'elections' but no power to change the system once it is put in place.
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Re: Azari's Choice ElBardei gets the job........

Post by Hans Bulvai »

monster_gardener wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Elbaradei to be named Egypt's interim PM

Opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei was chosen as Egypt's interim prime minister, according to sources close to the presidency.

A military source confirmed that the former UN nuclear watchdog chief was to be sworn in later on Saturday, three days after the army overthrew President Mohamed Morsi.

Interim leader Adly Mansour summoned ElBaradei to the presidential palace, the state news agency reported, without giving more details.

The Tamarod (rebellion) campaign had nominated ElBaradei to represent the movement in transition negotiations with the military.

The news came as thousands of Morsi supporters massed in Nasr City and other place across Egypt to reinforce their demand for the reinstatement of the ousted leader.

A senior official in the Freedom and Justice Party, the Muslim Brotherhood's political wing, said he rejected ElBaradei's appointment.

"We reject this coup and all that results from it, including ElBaradei," he told Reuters news agency at an Islamist gathering in northern Cairo.

ElBaradei, who won the Nobel peace prize in 2005 for his work with International Atomic Energy Agency, returned to Egypt in 2010 and became a prominent opponent of former president Hosni Mubarak in the lead-up to the 2011 uprising that overthrew him.

Al Jazeera's Sherine Tadros, reporting from Cairo, said the main question is how much power ElBaradei will have in his new role as interim prime minister.

"[ElBaradei's appointment] is not really a surprise. He was sitting next to General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi when he announced the ouster of President Morsi, which already indicated that ElBaradei was to take up an important role in the new government."

ElBaradei, who resigned from his political party Al Dostour to focus on new role, was to be sworn in at 8pm (18:00 GMT).

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 52978.html
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endo.

Azari will probably like this.......
It shouldn't.

All that means is that he is part of the military's game.

Who chose him? The ballot box? Facebook? The millions that are poor and living in Egypt's suburbs??
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Azari's Choice ElBardei gets the job........

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Elbaradei to be named Egypt's interim PM

Opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei was chosen as Egypt's interim prime minister, according to sources close to the presidency.

A military source confirmed that the former UN nuclear watchdog chief was to be sworn in later on Saturday, three days after the army overthrew President Mohamed Morsi.

Interim leader Adly Mansour summoned ElBaradei to the presidential palace, the state news agency reported, without giving more details.

The Tamarod (rebellion) campaign had nominated ElBaradei to represent the movement in transition negotiations with the military.

The news came as thousands of Morsi supporters massed in Nasr City and other place across Egypt to reinforce their demand for the reinstatement of the ousted leader.

A senior official in the Freedom and Justice Party, the Muslim Brotherhood's political wing, said he rejected ElBaradei's appointment.

"We reject this coup and all that results from it, including ElBaradei," he told Reuters news agency at an Islamist gathering in northern Cairo.

ElBaradei, who won the Nobel peace prize in 2005 for his work with International Atomic Energy Agency, returned to Egypt in 2010 and became a prominent opponent of former president Hosni Mubarak in the lead-up to the 2011 uprising that overthrew him.

Al Jazeera's Sherine Tadros, reporting from Cairo, said the main question is how much power ElBaradei will have in his new role as interim prime minister.

"[ElBaradei's appointment] is not really a surprise. He was sitting next to General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi when he announced the ouster of President Morsi, which already indicated that ElBaradei was to take up an important role in the new government."

ElBaradei, who resigned from his political party Al Dostour to focus on new role, was to be sworn in at 8pm (18:00 GMT).

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 52978.html
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endo.

Azari will probably like this.......
It shouldn't.

All that means is that he is part of the military's game.

Who chose him? The ballot box? Facebook? The millions that are poor and living in Egypt's suburbs ? ?


.


Am astonished ElBaradei accepted this, really astonished


Situation in Egypt pretty much "hopeless"

unless

West has a "Master Plan" for dramatically supporting ElBaradei on a "massive scale" .. would mean, Those monkey's, Amir & Kings, have to pay $ 100+ billion into Egypt.

ElBaradei can not do anything empty handed

That Qatari instead of buying "Valentino" or "Dolce Gabbana", should heavily poor money into Egypt

Otherwise ElBaradei is doomed

and

Hans

once things stabilize and improve, once Egyptian Nation sees the road-map put in place by ElBaradei, and happy with it, free election can be held and, ElBaradei or anybody else, can be elected

ElBaradei job will be to stabilize things, draw and put in motion the road-map, pull a free election, and let chips fall where it may



.
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Bread..... Honest Thieves...... Playing for Time....

Post by monster_gardener »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:

What do you figure the Egyptians should have done? The Islamists want more Islamism, Western racists and Islamophobes just want as many Arabs to suffer and die as possible, but what should Egyptians and progressive types who want what's best for Egypt be rooting for?
Too late for that. They should have rejected the speedy elections first. One does not need to be very sharp to realize that it takes a while to purge the system of the corrupt and stake holders. The military and former regime are the same entity. These guys who are cheering for the military's coup were the first condemn the military when it interfered the first time. Now they are friends.

I guess now we now who really holds the reigns of power in Egypt.

I said it before and will say it again. They do not know what they want. These people in the street are driven like sheep. First they want a democracy. When they get it, they want to overturn their own participation. This guy did not have a chance to do anything. One year in office and the supposed liberal press is telling us that he is even more hated than Mubarak. What a joke...

What are they expecting to happen next? Freedom and French fries? An overturning of the status quo?

I am not impressed by Egyptians anymore. On the contrary, they deserve what they have coming. I hate to say it.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Hans.
What are they expecting to happen next?
......French fries?
AIUI for many of them, understandably pretty close to that: affordable bread and cooking oil.

AIUI the "Arab Spring" was fueled largely by rising food prices...... Bad weather and speculators on "Wall Street"
Not what I meant by "French Fries". You have to read between the lines in what I write Monster.
I have nothing against wanting to feed yourself and family. But that is not their main objective.

I am not impressed by Egyptians anymore. On the contrary, they deserve what they have coming. I hate to say it.
Nothing despicable about wanting food when one is hungry.....*
People do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy his hunger when he is starving.
http://biblehub.com/proverbs/6-30.htm

Wondering what it would cost to bring bread back down to an affordable level....

My guess is less than the mess in Egypt and especially Syria.........

But I could be wrong..........

One irony is that Egypt in Roman times was the breadbasket of Rome......

*Though destroying greenhouses gifted to you is....... Maybe they should have been given to the Egyptians.........
Stealing bread to feed yourself and your hungry family a thief does not make you.
Robbing a country for 35 years does. Keeping those in power that made that robbery possible is just plain shortsighted.

Irony is what made the brotherhood popular in the first place is their social services including the half-priced breads at MB owned bakeries. Clinics and schools (both for boys and girls; ditto.

Ultimately they will not get the low-cost bread you speak off. The next guy will sell out to the World Bank, IMF and others and the situation will be even worst. They will get 'elections' but no power to change the system once it is put in place.
Thank You VERY Much for your reply, Hans.
Ultimately they will not get the low-cost bread you speak off.
You may well be correct but at one time they did the bread from Uz..........

At least in Egypt......*

Still recall seeing on 60 Minutes, an Egyptian farmer feeding US subsidized bread to his farm animals.....

Admittedly years ago..........

And now the bread would have to go directly to the people instead of fattening animals.......


Azari thinks $100 Billion is necessary........

Sounds too high...... really and politically.......

But IMHO $1 Billion might be possible......

All we have to do is cut 10 presidential trips like the current fiasco......... ;)

And make sure it benefits some powerful group here, Farmers/Agribusiness, without hurting the Down in the Black Gang Uz consumers too much......

Remembering the Russian Wheat Deal/Great Grain Robbery..... :|

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_grain_robbery

Might also be well to tweak the results of the Asswan Damn ;) oops sorry Aswan Dam....

See about having some Uz or whoever pays for it firm see if the fishing industry can be revived some more since the bread needs to go to people and not goats however tasty........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Dam#Other_impacts

Stealing bread to feed yourself and your hungry family a thief does not make you.
You might like this Japanese story about an honest thief and a clever judge named Ooka.

http://mrmillenwiki.wikispaces.com/file ... -thief.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ooka_Tadasuke


Playing for time........

Till there are sustainable Space Colonies or the Messiah comes/returns.......

Or something scarier............


*IIRC the problem in Syria to a large degree was cooking oil which got hoarded more and more as the price rose making the price rise more and more :roll:
Last edited by monster_gardener on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Egypt

Post by Ibrahim »

That's the end of whatever appeal El Baradei ever had in Egypt. He made some bold statement in 2012 about how he's never accept office without the legitimacy of elections, then proved to be full of sh!t. Picking on him is easy but it doesn't really matter, nobody installed in this interim period has any legitimacy until:

1. the roundups and purges end,
2. martial law ends,
3. there is an open election.


And while all of this chaos delights racists who just enjoy watching Arabs die, the chorus of Western "liberals" advocating various forms of dictatorship are somehow worse. I mean you expect the racists, but I caught a bit of CNN this evening and they had a panel of Western Christians and Jews talking about how thrilled Egyptians were with their coup and political reprisals. Presumably the circa %40 of Egyptians who were satisfied with Morsi aren't thrilled, and the people currently held in military dungeons, or those who've died in street clashes, definitely aren't thrilled.
Ibrahim
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Re: Egypt

Post by Ibrahim »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle- ... WEET814272
Egypt unrest: Morsi supporters 'shot dead' in Cairo
At least seven people have been killed after the army raided a sit-in staged by supporters of ousted President Mohammed Morsi in Cairo, reports say.
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Re: Azari's Choice ElBardei gets the job........

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Elbaradei to be named Egypt's interim PM

Opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei was chosen as Egypt's interim prime minister, according to sources close to the presidency.

A military source confirmed that the former UN nuclear watchdog chief was to be sworn in later on Saturday, three days after the army overthrew President Mohamed Morsi.

Interim leader Adly Mansour summoned ElBaradei to the presidential palace, the state news agency reported, without giving more details.

The Tamarod (rebellion) campaign had nominated ElBaradei to represent the movement in transition negotiations with the military.

The news came as thousands of Morsi supporters massed in Nasr City and other place across Egypt to reinforce their demand for the reinstatement of the ousted leader.

A senior official in the Freedom and Justice Party, the Muslim Brotherhood's political wing, said he rejected ElBaradei's appointment.

"We reject this coup and all that results from it, including ElBaradei," he told Reuters news agency at an Islamist gathering in northern Cairo.

ElBaradei, who won the Nobel peace prize in 2005 for his work with International Atomic Energy Agency, returned to Egypt in 2010 and became a prominent opponent of former president Hosni Mubarak in the lead-up to the 2011 uprising that overthrew him.

Al Jazeera's Sherine Tadros, reporting from Cairo, said the main question is how much power ElBaradei will have in his new role as interim prime minister.

"[ElBaradei's appointment] is not really a surprise. He was sitting next to General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi when he announced the ouster of President Morsi, which already indicated that ElBaradei was to take up an important role in the new government."

ElBaradei, who resigned from his political party Al Dostour to focus on new role, was to be sworn in at 8pm (18:00 GMT).

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 52978.html
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endo.

Azari will probably like this.......
It shouldn't.

All that means is that he is part of the military's game.

Who chose him? The ballot box? Facebook? The millions that are poor and living in Egypt's suburbs ? ?


.



Democracy, as understood in the west, is not for many countries and nations


Democracy is not somethings you switch on or off, is not something coming from above

For democracy, FIRST , the culture and civilization and people, mindset, must be democratic

Meaning, people must have in their blood the "ingredient" of "democratic mindset"


Main Pillar of democracy is acceptance and respect of "minority rights" within "universal human right" of Cyrus the Persian

Majority rule is not democracy, but "Tyranny of Majority" .. Israel is not democracy, but Tyranny of Majority

A very good sample of Tyranny of majority is HITLER episode .. @least 90% of Germans were with Hitler, a free election would have given Hitler @least 90% of the vote, who would not like being told they the best and other sh*t ? ? (VP) George Bush, after US shot down an Iranian passenger plane, said he will not apologize for America no matter what the facts, the idi*t not realizing not he but histories judgement, that is what happens when illiterates become leaders

Arab (speaking) civilization and culture does not have "democratic" mindset, culture and history

Meaning, speaking of election and other free stuff a sign one not comprehend the reality


Problem of Arab countries is not democracy or not .. issue in Arab countries is rulers are traitors to their own people

Nasser was no democrat or won by free election .. Atta Turk was no democrat .. Reza Shah (father of last Shah) was no democrat winning by free election


Hans, democracy and free election is a farce to fool the common people .. in all world .. America, Europe, China, Iran and and and .. ELITE rules

Only difference is, whether the "ruling elite" sold their's to enemy of their nation .. or .. they patriot


At this point and time, Mohamed ElBaradei is the closes Egypt has patriot Egyptian, not perfect, but the closest (among all candidates for the job)





.
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Endovelico
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Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

How Morsi, Brotherhood Lost Egypt
By: Bassem Sabry for Al-Monitor Posted on July 4.

CAIRO — I was in Tahrir when they announced Mubarak was ousted. I was in Tahrir when they announced Morsi had won. And I was also in Tahrir as they announced Morsi was ousted.

Each time was a remarkably different experience for me, only united by roaring crowds, waving flags, fireworks, hugs from strangers and a big sense of relief. This time, the cheers were even more deafening. They were not just in Tahrir, but in other squares around Cairo and the country, all packed without any real organizational power behind them. The floods of people in the streets around Cairo appeared to me bigger than before, people seemed to genuinely believe they “took back their country,” and that the military was a hero doing all the right things. But perhaps what characterized this time in Tahrir for me was my sense of worry, deeper than ever before.

I believe that Mohammed Morsi had won his election, despite the more hardcore of the anti-Morsi camp's claims of fraud and voter intimidation by the Muslim Brotherhood, and that the Brotherhood had secretly threatened violence if they lost (likely, this narrative will be intentionally magnified now to make the new order even more acceptable). I believe in democracy and I have always argued in favor of the democratic process taking its course in Egypt, and always argued against any political exclusion. I consistently called for national reconciliation and compromise as the most sustainable way forward. Having said all of that, I cannot shake my conviction that Morsi, and the Brotherhood, had it coming. It was inevitable that an explosion was coming.

Until November, many had held on to the idea that Morsi and the Brotherhood were wise enough not to overplay their hand, that they knew how complicated the situation in Egypt was and that unilateralism would only bring them down. Many believed that the Brotherhood would learn from the poignant history of deposed president Hosni Mubarak and the National Democratic Party, from which they suffered perhaps the most. Many felt Morsi would be wise enough to realize he was barely elected (51.7% of the vote) against a candidate who many viewed as representing the former regime, and with the vital aid of a strong, multi-ideological revolutionary coalition that supported him based on promises of inclusion and unity.

But the problem was that it became more and more apparent that the Brotherhood was intent not on building a democratic administration, but a new regime.

Following a mixed start with ups and downs, Morsi and the Brotherhood suffered a massive blow after his November constitutional declaration. This was followed by continued and gradual erosion of faith for months. In his most infamous act, Morsi astonishingly saw it justifiable to give himself the power to unilaterally amend the constitutional declaration. He officially declared himself, albeit temporarily until his specific purposes for the time were achieved, immune to any judicial review in an act reminiscent of cartoonish fictional takes on autocrats.

He assaulted the separation of powers by handpicking an allied prosecutor-general in a manner that defied the post-revolution national consensus of letting the judiciary nominate the candidate to such a role, and whose removal remained a strong divisive point in any attempt at national reconciliation. This controllable prosecutor-general, against which almost the entire prosecutorial corps protested and nearly succeeded in firing, was used quite clearly at will to go after the private media and the opposition as a direct extension of Morsi and the Brotherhood, while substantially legally shielding the Brotherhood at the same time.

The president, the Brotherhood and its allies, continuously tried to assume an unfairly tight grip over the constitution-drafting process. They also broke promises to ensure a constitution that garnered sufficient national consensus. Instead, and under the cover of the November constitutional declaration, Morsi and the Brotherhood rushed a referendum on a disappointing and dangerous draft without real proper national debate (in a country with substantial illiteracy and areas with little access to anything but state media, which was also under Brotherhood influence), against the walkout of all opposition members, the church, civil and human rights organizations and others.

The constitution, which was supposed to be the crowning achievement of Egypt’s transition, became one of its most divisive elements and deepest causes for national conflict. The opposition holds that its claims over voting violations never got any real consideration. The Brotherhood later acknowledged some of the holes in the constitution, but the road for its rectification remained a thorny issue.

In another breach of revolutionary consensus, Morsi and the Brotherood tightened control over state media and retained the nationally rejected role of information minister, already abolished briefly after the toppling of Hosni Mubarak. State-owned papers and channels were subjected to appointments of allied or controllable leaderships. The media often ran familiar propaganda-esque headlines that seemed taken out of the Mubarak days. Furthermore, state press and television did not provide neutral and balanced coverage of events, and state TV was almost always forced to host a Brotherhood guest on every talk show, or at the very least not host an opposition figure on his own.

Reports of guest blacklists also began to surface once more. Charges of “insulting the president” and “contempt of religion” began to pile up against media figures, often made by Brotherhood allies rather than directly by the Brotherhood (though the presidency did press some charges before retracting them under local and international pressure). Morsi and the Brotherhood seemed to care very little about fixing the problematic legislative framework for media, and gradually appeared to find it handy, especially with a prosecutor-general that was under full control.

The Brotherhood was also widely seen to be working on the “Brotherhoodization” of the state, even to the outcry of its former Islamist allies such as the Salafist Al-Nour party. Increasingly, the Brotherhood and Morsi began appointing loyalist figures in key state positions. While the appointments of political allies and fellow party members to key positions is a part of democracy, the Brotherhood's actions were widely seen as an attempt to solidify their grip on the state in a manner that threatened any modicum of neutrality by the state institutions, especially while the national mood was still strongly in favor of greater unity. Meanwhile, the Brotherhood continuously defied unanimous demands to subject itself as an organization to full government or public oversight of its activities and resources.

The Brotherhood and Morsi also used the upper house of parliament as an ultra-active legislative house. The Brotherhood-dominated institution was originally an advisory body elected by only 7% of the electorate and whose elections were somewhat ignored by the opposition. Although the original claim was that the Shura Council would only rubber stamp consensus legislation until the lower house would be elected, it was turned into a full parliament. It discussed far-reaching and controversial drafts, including: a non-governmental organization law that was widely seen as capable of stifling civil society in Egypt; divisive electoral and political rights laws that were criticized as favoring the Islamists; and even a disastrous judicial reform law that would have axed around 3,500 existing judges in an already choking legal system. The latter draft was openly seen as a move to get rid of judges that were problematic to the Brotherhood’s plans (though significant politicization of the judiciary could not be denied), while there were wide fears of intentions to replace them with a new generation of more sympathetic judges or outright Brotherhood members.

Already, Morsi and the Brotherhood had antagonized much of the judiciary through his constitutional declaration in November, the appointment of the prosecutor-general, the downsizing of the constitutional court to get ride of specific judges, and more. They remained seemingly defiant on passing their most controversial move against the judiciary, despite wide rejection.

Then there was the Brotherhood’s handling of the Egyptian state, which drew the ire of a vast swathe of the population (not that the opposition-aligned media did not fan the flames, and sensationalist reporting was substantially prevalent). For a year, the country lacked economic vision and governmental transparency or even managerial aptitude. The Qandil government was unanimously criticized by the country’s forces as inept and failing, remarkably (and confusingly) even by the Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party. The country was subject to increasing electricity blackouts, growing foreign debt, the availability of bread and fuel became a deep concern, and more.

Of course, not all of it could be blamed on Morsi and the government, but it was clear that the current policies and government were failing. Morsi, nonetheless, hung on to Qandil despite everyone’s demands to replace him, and refused calls for either a neutral technocratic or a genuine national coalition government to oversee the country until elections. When a government reshuffle did take place, Morsi only brought it more allies, some of whom seemed incapable for their posts, infuriating much of the public and the country’s forces.

There was also the question of Morsi and the Brotherhood's loss of credibility, a strong factor given the banner of the Islamic-based project. The Brotherhood and the president had repeatedly reneged on several key promises and claims. For example, there stunningly turned out to be no “Renaissance Project,” a campaign centerpiece allegedly many years in the making. The project promised a full plan with defined resources to help Egypt grow and prosper. The Brotherhood had promised to run for no more than 30% of parliament, then ran for all seats. They promised not to run for president, and fielded two candidates. While there were public calls for dialogue, behind the scenes the Brotherhood directly rebuffed many of the opposition's core demands as virtually non-negotiable, according to opposition sources.

Christians increasingly felt marginalized under Morsi. Brotherhood-allied media regularly used sectarian language and claims. Many Christians felt unprotected from sectarian violence and that official moves were meant as decorative and to appease international opinion. Many also were deeply perturbed by Morsi's failing to show up for the pope’s enthronement. Few Christians were appointed to high-ranking positions in the state, and claims that the president would appoint vice presidents and include a Christian were not fulfilled.

By the time June 30 neared, Morsi had alienated and antagonized everyone but his most radical allies.

He had earned the strong disapproval of the leaderships of Al-Azhar and the church, the country’s Christians, the largest Salafist (and overall second) political party, civil society, most of the military and the police (pre-existing biases put into consideration), the judiciary, the opposition, the media, his former revolutionary and election partners, much of the business community, and clearly a large majority of the Egyptian population.

Even the president’s Islamist culture minister antagonized much of the intelligentsia. Although people widely agreed that the ministry and its activities needed reforms and were filled with corruption as well as an understanding that the ministry should be open to wider cultural directions, there was an outcry against seemingly arbitrary firings of people in key positions. In one case, a firing occured a couple of days after he promised not to fire the subsequently sacked manager of the Cairo Opera House. The previously unknown minister was being accused of having little qualification for the role, except for having written an article denouncing the opposition and the media months earlier. Two sit-ins defiantly ensued by artists and the intelligentsia, against what they believed to be an aggressive plan to staff the state's cultural institutions with Brotherhood allies and to forcefully change the Egyptian identity, at least as they saw it..

In his speech, days before the June 30 protests, in which Morsi was expected to appeal for national dialogue and reconciliation, Morsi gave two speeches, moving back and forth between them. The first was an official written speech in which he seemed to be making some overtures, written in classic Arabic. The second, a long list of side and largely spontaneous colloquial commentary, was filled with ludicrous and dangerous name-calling of opposing figures, including touting taxation and bank problems for the named owners of opposition TV channels, effectively calling his still popular electoral opponent a criminal despite ongoing investigations, directly accusing a judge of forging previous elections.

Morsi then stunningly began arguing that “one year was enough” for his patience with the media and opposing forces. Immediately after his speech, the investment authority and the prosecutor’s office began to move against the opposition media again, including putting the owner of an opposition channel on a no-fly list, reportedly restarting investigations against media figures. One channel was even taken off the air, and there was wide acceptance that other private media channels and figures were going to be decisively pursued once the June 30 protests would amount to nothing. There were even considerable leaks within the opposition before the uprising that the prosecution was planning to crack down on them after the June 30 protests, though that is a claim more difficult to substantiate. The lead management of a government-run conference center, which had recently hosted opposition news conferences, was also sacked the following day.

One can write even more on the subject, but instead, I wish to move to the other side of the discussion.

I profoundly wish Morsi had just either accepted real reconciliation earlier or had just called early elections given the massive public pressure that built from June 30 onward, even while recognizing a large base demonstrated in support of him. I repeatedly argued that reconciliation was key, beginning with a wiser and a more tactful opposition (whose disorganization, strategy and polarizing tactics were undeniably a genuine part of the problems in Egypt) and a less arrogant Brotherhood.

Egyptian democracy, the stability of the country and the peaceful coexistence of its groups are right now in a deeply worrying place. With the former president and his staff’s liberty under control, the recent moves to arrest Brotherhood leaders and allies, and the immediate blackout of allied religious channels, there is reason to be deeply concerned, and many are worried of a witch hunt against Islamists. What is also troubling is that the return of a police state in this current scenario is a very likely possibility, and potentially with the large blessing of a public that is now worried of Islamist violence and is in desperate need for stability.

As the reign of the military from 2011 to 2012 had demonstrated, the military is not exactly a paragon of freedom. An analyst, tweeting yesterday, rightly argued that the local feeling of mandate for a crackdown on Islamists now was possibly much bigger than anything that might have existed under Mubarak in recent times. But Egypt will never find stability, and its democracy will never thrive, without inclusiveness, fairness, due process and separation of powers. The Brotherhood and its big base cannot be excluded or treated outside of due process. Repression, especially of a genuinely sizable, believing and passionate public group, will only lead to an explosion.

This was a popular and genuine uprising against Morsi. These were undeniably the largest ever and the most self-driven protests in Egypt's history. Nonetheless, the role of the military and its actions surely give us cause for concern, and what became of the first civilian and democratically elected president is troubling.

I wish all of this was different, and it would have been better for Egypt. The current transition has to move wisely, but quickly. Inclusion and civil cohesion must become the cornerstone of this process. Right now, I am of greater worry than I was in February 2011.

Still, there is something utterly inspiring in seeing people rise up once more and show that they will not be taken for granted or intimidated. Of course, one has to wait and keep a vigilant eye before any final conclusions can be made about where Egypt is going.

Let us hope Egyptians never have to rise up a third time.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... sabry.html
Democracy, as understood by Islamists, is not exactly what we have in mind when referring to the concept...
Ibrahim
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Re: Egypt

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:Democracy, as understood by Islamists, is not exactly what we have in mind when referring to the concept...
So let the military that's been torturing and killing people for 50 years shoot them all and then hand-pick the people they want? How is Islamism worse than fascism? There seem to have been more purges and massacres after the coup.

If people wanted to destroy the Muslim Brotherhood they should have let them government for another 3 years, now they aren't going anywhere.
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Egypt

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Ammianus wrote:Two years on and I am still awed by the power of the Arab Revolution to make, among other things, Dan a enthusiastic believer in Arab democracy and Hans Bulvai into an inveterate Arab hater.
Yawn....

Hate... Not many are worth such a profound emotion and less deserve it.

I do hate what Arabs are doing to themselves though and have an inkling as to why it is happening.

I do hate that Arabs are killing each other.

I do hate what is happening to generations of children.

I do hate the destruction of beautiful lands.

I do hate the destruction of a rich culture with all of its imperfections.

And yes, I do hate facebook revolutions.
inveterate
Two years on and I am still awed by willful ignorance.

From the very beginning I had my doubts and the reasons continue to materialize (Libya, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia).
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Azari's Choice ElBardei gets the job........

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Elbaradei to be named Egypt's interim PM

Opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei was chosen as Egypt's interim prime minister, according to sources close to the presidency.

A military source confirmed that the former UN nuclear watchdog chief was to be sworn in later on Saturday, three days after the army overthrew President Mohamed Morsi.

Interim leader Adly Mansour summoned ElBaradei to the presidential palace, the state news agency reported, without giving more details.

The Tamarod (rebellion) campaign had nominated ElBaradei to represent the movement in transition negotiations with the military.

The news came as thousands of Morsi supporters massed in Nasr City and other place across Egypt to reinforce their demand for the reinstatement of the ousted leader.

A senior official in the Freedom and Justice Party, the Muslim Brotherhood's political wing, said he rejected ElBaradei's appointment.

"We reject this coup and all that results from it, including ElBaradei," he told Reuters news agency at an Islamist gathering in northern Cairo.

ElBaradei, who won the Nobel peace prize in 2005 for his work with International Atomic Energy Agency, returned to Egypt in 2010 and became a prominent opponent of former president Hosni Mubarak in the lead-up to the 2011 uprising that overthrew him.

Al Jazeera's Sherine Tadros, reporting from Cairo, said the main question is how much power ElBaradei will have in his new role as interim prime minister.

"[ElBaradei's appointment] is not really a surprise. He was sitting next to General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi when he announced the ouster of President Morsi, which already indicated that ElBaradei was to take up an important role in the new government."

ElBaradei, who resigned from his political party Al Dostour to focus on new role, was to be sworn in at 8pm (18:00 GMT).

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 52978.html
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endo.

Azari will probably like this.......
It shouldn't.

All that means is that he is part of the military's game.

Who chose him? The ballot box? Facebook? The millions that are poor and living in Egypt's suburbs ? ?


.



Democracy, as understood in the west, is not for many countries and nations


Democracy is not somethings you switch on or off, is not something coming from above

For democracy, FIRST , the culture and civilization and people, mindset, must be democratic

Meaning, people must have in their blood the "ingredient" of "democratic mindset"


Main Pillar of democracy is acceptance and respect of "minority rights" within "universal human right" of Cyrus the Persian

Majority rule is not democracy, but "Tyranny of Majority" .. Israel is not democracy, but Tyranny of Majority

A very good sample of Tyranny of majority is HITLER episode .. @least 90% of Germans were with Hitler, a free election would have given Hitler @least 90% of the vote, who would not like being told they the best and other sh*t ? ? (VP) George Bush, after US shot down an Iranian passenger plane, said he will not apologize for America no matter what the facts, the idi*t not realizing not he but histories judgement, that is what happens when illiterates become leaders

Arab (speaking) civilization and culture does not have "democratic" mindset, culture and history

Meaning, speaking of election and other free stuff a sign one not comprehend the reality


Problem of Arab countries is not democracy or not .. issue in Arab countries is rulers are traitors to their own people

Nasser was no democrat or won by free election .. Atta Turk was no democrat .. Reza Shah (father of last Shah) was no democrat winning by free election


Hans, democracy and free election is a farce to fool the common people .. in all world .. America, Europe, China, Iran and and and .. ELITE rules

Only difference is, whether the "ruling elite" sold their's to enemy of their nation .. or .. they patriot


At this point and time, Mohamed ElBaradei is the closes Egypt has patriot Egyptian, not perfect, but the closest (among all candidates for the job)





.
Agree with all of it.
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
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Endovelico
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Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:Democracy, as understood by Islamists, is not exactly what we have in mind when referring to the concept...
So let the military that's been torturing and killing people for 50 years shoot them all and then hand-pick the people they want? How is Islamism worse than fascism? There seem to have been more purges and massacres after the coup.

If people wanted to destroy the Muslim Brotherhood they should have let them government for another 3 years, now they aren't going anywhere.
Islamists, like Christian fundamentalists or Jewish zealots, must be made to understand that they will not be allowed to impose their fantasies on non-believers. If necessary, by force. The rights of religious people do not include the right to impose on others a discipline which they totally reject. We have gone over these issues before, but you will never be able to understand what I mean.
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