On the Nature of Things | Forum

On Oct. 1 the citizens of Spain’s northeastern province of Catalonia will vote in a referendum for national independence, despite arm-twisting by the Spanish government and stern warnings by world leaders – including Donald Trump, who last week stood next to Spain’s Prime Minister at the White House and told the Catalans that they would be “foolish” to secede.

noddy wrote:spain once again proving its incredible incompetency.

they turned a 50/50 situation into a 90/10 with clumsy authoritarianism - this could have played out like england/scotland, i believe the numbers where similar until the idiots started throwing the police force around.

noddy wrote:spain once again proving its incredible incompetency.


they turned a 50/50 situation into a 90/10 with clumsy authoritarianism - this could have played out like england/scotland, i believe the numbers where similar until the idiots started throwing the police force around.

Simple Minded wrote:.

That's exactly what the Russians want you to believe is happening there.

IIRC, our old buddy Endovelico was heavily involved in attaining Catalonic independence. I hope he is doing well.

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noddy wrote:they turned a 50/50 situation into a 90/10 with clumsy authoritarianism - this could have played out like england/scotland, i believe the numbers where similar until the idiots started throwing the police force around.

noddy wrote:a) i have no doubt a heavy handed spainish regime will create another basque type situation.
b) claiming "contempt" for the spanish is a childish statement in itself

contempt also encapsulates an authoritarian response with media shutdowns and police beatings - the illegality of the vote and misrepresentation of its results are a given *because* of the actions of the government.

Alexis wrote:

noddy wrote:a) i have no doubt a heavy handed spainish regime will create another basque type situation.
b) claiming "contempt" for the spanish is a childish statement in itself

I think you do not know very much Catalan independentism.

Regarding the Spanish government trying to get the law respected, and the resulting situation in Catalonya, well we'll see.

contempt also encapsulates an authoritarian response with media shutdowns and police beatings - the illegality of the vote and misrepresentation of its results are a given *because* of the actions of the government.

The vote is illegal because a court of law had declared it is. Actions of the government are posterior to that decision. They aim at applying it.

If you think applying the decisions of a court is "authoritarianism", then I have to disagree. Also, the dictionnary disagrees.

noddy wrote:
I think we are in a time of splitting and how the larger grouping deals with it will be crucial to how it plays out - if the larger grouping is truly a net benefit to all involved it will conduct itself accordingly.

noddy wrote:this is highly publicised.

the spanish government shutdown the internet to disable the voter verification, destroyed ballot boxes triggering a second round of voting and then used police force to beat people who showed up at the main locations.

you can paint it however you like but the difference between this and the british or canadian responses to similar situations is quite striking.

noddy wrote:my state voted to suceed in 1933, the federals just ignored it and nothing happened after that.

their is another push for it at the moment as we are far more integrated with asia than the rest of australia so would be less europe/america orientated without them - we would also be far better off economically.

Alexis wrote:

noddy wrote:my state voted to suceed in 1933, the federals just ignored it and nothing happened after that.

their is another push for it at the moment as we are far more integrated with asia than the rest of australia so would be less europe/america orientated without them - we would also be far better off economically.

Thanks, I didn't know it: Secessionism in Western Australia

Is secession of a province compatible with Australian Constitution, or would it have to be reformed first?

Simple Minded wrote: I agree and think you are correctly reading current social mood. In the US, the popular appeal of Palin, Obama, Occupy Wall Street, Tea Party, Trump, and Sanders are all recent indicators. People all over want "different."

California exiters are another example. But the lines of demarcation are what interest me. Why make the determination by state lines? People group in so many different manners these days. Looking at county voting patterns reveal there is no such thing in the US as a red state or a blue state. If California leaves the US, and declares any moral platform for doing so, can they contain the counties within their border? What will be the hook (carrot & stick) to make them want to stay?

Group ID is the question. I recently saw an interview with Cheryl Atkinson, and another one with Faith Goldy.

It has never been easier for a small group of people to appear to be a mass movement to the general population.

Tabarnia - the 'region' that wants to leave Catalonia

A satirical petition proposing that Tabarnia, a non-existent part of independence-minded Catalonia, should break away from the region and remain part of Spain went viral on Tuesday.

[...]

Its backers mirror the language of Catalan separatists to argue that Tabarnia -- a word formed from Barcelona and Tarragona, the names of Catalonia's two main cities on the Mediterranean coast -- "is a region that differs in many aspects from the rest of the region it belongs to."

[...]

They argue that Barcelona and Tarragona suffer a "fiscal deficit" with the rest of the region, echoing the argument of separatists who say Catalonia, one of Spain's richest regions, pays more in taxes to the central government than it gets back in investments.

[...]