On the Nature of Things | Forum

Ibrahim wrote:

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:The APA is a body of functionaries who wish to control all normative questions. To do so, they must constantly campaign to advertise that, as a body, they are on the right (usually the best financed) side of any issue which is currently fashionable.

It has always been the case since its founding in the 1880s.

Beyond the problem of a lack of insight, is our inability to, in the words of kids today, deplatform them. There are no consequences for their quackery. Which also makes them a perfect organization to bolster appeals to authority.

Sort of like how the media and Fortune 500 companies have handed off "hate" to the mail-order scam Southern Poverty Law Center, which has grown ever more powerful because of its irrelevancy.

The same thing has happened with the APA, and similar organizations, which have become ever more entrenched as institutional pillars in proportion to its growing replication crisis of its academic disciplines and its decades long decline on the practitioners' side of things.

The APA is like any other scientific or medical organization: arbiters of fact when they agree with my preconceptions, politically motivated quacks and loons when they don't.

Doesn't the APA realize that men and boys are "under attack!?!?!" All the misogyny and violence is just men defending themselves against the loony left. Men need to embrace their traditional dominant roles, as long as they don't get too ethnic about it.

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:Impressive pier jumping, I'll give you that.

Ibrahim wrote:

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:Impressive pier jumping, I'll give you that.

I don't know what that means. I'm always behind on the latest terminology. I just learned "virtue signaling" but I haven't figured out "intersectionality" yet.

noddy wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:Impressive pier jumping, I'll give you that.

I don't know what that means. I'm always behind on the latest terminology. I just learned "virtue signaling" but I haven't figured out "intersectionality" yet.

intersectionality is the old schoolyard joke of the one legged, black, lesbian jew made into a political platform

Ibrahim wrote:

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:Impressive pier jumping, I'll give you that.

I don't know what that means. I'm always behind on the latest terminology. I just learned "virtue signaling" but I haven't figured out "intersectionality" yet.

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:Impressive pier jumping, I'll give you that.

I don't know what that means. I'm always behind on the latest terminology. I just learned "virtue signaling" but I haven't figured out "intersectionality" yet.

Or your drowning in it.

I'm not using any terminology. I'm saying you dived right in to the lake and began to splash water over nothin'.

Nothing I said in passing fits your presumptuous strawman.

And I am confused how saying that the APA has always been staffed by quack-functionaries is bad-faith selectivity on my part. The whole trade union has been rotten from the start- from 1880s on- I'm not cherry-picking anything from 'em.

Ibrahim wrote: I think it was easier to ignore the incels before they started committing mass-murders,

and more alarmingly for those uninitiated in the more disturbing parts of the internet, that the killers are lauded in the forums where these people congregate.

Ibrahim wrote: Presently mass-murders by "incels" and white nationalists are more frequent than those by Islamists in North America,

but I would agree that the motivations are similar. In both cases we are talking about frustrated young men who adopt a cargo cult version of traditional culture as an excuse or justification for what is ultimately nihilistic violence. Misogyny seems to be the common denominator of both groups, and other regional variations on extremism besides.

Mr. Perfect wrote:

Ibrahim wrote: I think it was easier to ignore the incels before they started committing mass-murders,

Fascinating. How many incel mass murderers have there been, say compared to Islamic mass murderers.

Mr. Perfect wrote:

Ibrahim wrote: Presently mass-murders by "incels" and white nationalists are more frequent than those by Islamists in North America,

Really. What are numbers are you basing that on.

-From January 2008 to the end of 2016, we identified 63 cases of Islamist domestic terrorism, meaning incidents motivated by a theocratic political ideology espoused by such groups as the Islamic State. The vast majority of these (76 percent) were foiled plots, meaning no attack took place.

-During the same period, we found that right-wing extremists were behind nearly twice as many incidents: 115. Just over a third of these incidents (35 percent) were foiled plots. The majority were acts of terrorist violence that involved deaths, injuries or damaged property.

-Right-wing extremist terrorism was more often deadly: Nearly a third of incidents involved fatalities, for a total of 79 deaths, while 13 percent of Islamist cases caused fatalities. (The total deaths associated with Islamist incidents were higher, however, reaching 90, largely due to the 2009 mass shooting at Fort Hood in Texas.)

-Incidents related to left-wing ideologies, including ecoterrorism and animal rights, were comparatively rare, with 19 incidents causing seven fatalities – making the shooting attack on Republican members of Congress earlier this month somewhat of an anomaly.

-Nearly half (48 percent) of Islamist incidents in our database were sting operations, more than four times the rate for far-right (12 percent) or far-left (10.5 percent) incidents.

and more alarmingly for those uninitiated in the more disturbing parts of the internet, that the killers are lauded in the forums where these people congregate.

What would be an example of that.

Minutes before Alek Minassian allegedly launched Monday's deadly attack in Toronto, Canada, he posted to Facebook: "The Incel Rebellion has already begun! We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys! All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger!"

Police have not yet confirmed any motive for the attack in which he is accused of murdering 10 people but his post on Facebook has drawn new attention to a mass murderer whose crimes inspired a dubious following.

[...]

On dedicated incel websites, users are split. Some disavow Rodgers but others admire him, seeking to rationalise and even celebrate his actions. Likewise the attack attributed to Alek Minassian.

Of the Toronto suspect, one post says: "I hope this guy wrote a manifesto because he could be our next new saint."

Another proclaims: "I will have one celebratory beer for every victim that turns out to be a young woman between 18-35."

Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

Ibrahim wrote: You mean all-time? Give these incels a chance to catch up with ancient religious movements like Islam and Christianity in terms of generating mass-murders.

Mr. Perfect wrote:

Ibrahim wrote: Presently mass-murders by "incels" and white nationalists are more frequent than those by Islamists in North America,

Really. What are numbers are you basing that on.

-From January 2008 to the end of 2016, we identified 63 cases of Islamist domestic terrorism, meaning incidents motivated by a theocratic political ideology espoused by such groups as the Islamic State. The vast majority of these (76 percent) were foiled plots, meaning no attack took place.

-During the same period, we found that right-wing extremists were behind nearly twice as many incidents: 115. Just over a third of these incidents (35 percent) were foiled plots. The majority were acts of terrorist violence that involved deaths, injuries or damaged property.

-Right-wing extremist terrorism was more often deadly: Nearly a third of incidents involved fatalities, for a total of 79 deaths, while 13 percent of Islamist cases caused fatalities. (The total deaths associated with Islamist incidents were higher, however, reaching 90, largely due to the 2009 mass shooting at Fort Hood in Texas.)

-Incidents related to left-wing ideologies, including ecoterrorism and animal rights, were comparatively rare, with 19 incidents causing seven fatalities – making the shooting attack on Republican members of Congress earlier this month somewhat of an anomaly.

-Nearly half (48 percent) of Islamist incidents in our database were sting operations, more than four times the rate for far-right (12 percent) or far-left (10.5 percent) incidents.

https://www.typeinvestigations.org/inve ... home-hate/
and a note of their methodology
https://www.typeinvestigations.org/inve ... incidents/

and more alarmingly for those uninitiated in the more disturbing parts of the internet, that the killers are lauded in the forums where these people congregate.

What would be an example of that.

Minutes before Alek Minassian allegedly launched Monday's deadly attack in Toronto, Canada, he posted to Facebook: "The Incel Rebellion has already begun! We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys! All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger!"

Police have not yet confirmed any motive for the attack in which he is accused of murdering 10 people but his post on Facebook has drawn new attention to a mass murderer whose crimes inspired a dubious following.

[...]

On dedicated incel websites, users are split. Some disavow Rodgers but others admire him, seeking to rationalise and even celebrate his actions. Likewise the attack attributed to Alek Minassian.

Of the Toronto suspect, one post says: "I hope this guy wrote a manifesto because he could be our next new saint."

Another proclaims: "I will have one celebratory beer for every victim that turns out to be a young woman between 18-35."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43892189

Thanks!

Mr. Perfect wrote:

Ibrahim wrote: You mean all-time? Give these incels a chance to catch up with ancient religious movements like Islam and Christianity in terms of generating mass-murders.

Would you like to put some money on it.

The writer of these articles works with the SPLC which recently had to settle a defamation lawsuit with this guy.

The also appear to have left out the Pulse nightclub shooing which killed 49 people in the name of Islam/Islamic State, for starters.

On dedicated incel websites, users are split. Some disavow Rodgers but others admire him, seeking to rationalise and even celebrate his actions. Likewise the attack attributed to Alek Minassian.

Of the Toronto suspect, one post says: "I hope this guy wrote a manifesto because he could be our next new saint."

Another proclaims: "I will have one celebratory beer for every victim that turns out to be a young woman between 18-35."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43892189

So 2 anonymous comment section quotes?

Ibrahim wrote: Sounds great. Let's meet back here in 1000 years for the results.

The SPLC is a fine organization. It makes sense that supporters of far-right politics don't like them though, and would support harassment lawsuits against them. Remember the alt-right/neo-nazi rule: free speech for us, censorship for everyone else.

What makes you think that?

Most misogynist forums are anonymous, and these types of comments are endemic. Don't take my word for it, a few second on Google should set you right.

Nonc Hilaire wrote: Muslim, but not religious.

noddy wrote:its a tag team thing to make sure the new surveillance state is constantly fed.

right wing gets fed mozzie horror stories, left wing gets fed neonazi horror stories, anyone that points out that both occur below the level of regular druggie/loon violence we have accepted for centuries gets accused of being one or the other, by the other.

one day folks are going to remember that any power you give your team, is available to the evil other team at the next election,.

Ibrahim wrote:The SPLC is a fine organization.

The Southern Poverty Law Center demonizes respectable political opponents as “hate groups”—and keeps its coffers bulging.


... Critics of the SPLC accuse the lavishly funded organization of peddling fear and smearing political opponents—mostly conservatives—as bigots. Its “Hatewatch” list is avowedly ideological, acknowledging that it “monitors and exposes the activities of the American radical right.” Few left-wing organizations—and no Islamist groups—are branded in this way by the SPLC. Nevertheless, the SPLC, founded in 1971, has burrowed itself into the civil rights movement, the organized bar, the cloistered culture of large law firms, the education system, and even law enforcement as a champion for “the exploited, the powerless and the forgotten.” Its executives are richly compensated, some in excess of $400,000 annually. Operating from palatial six-story quarters in Montgomery, Alabama (sometimes called the “Poverty Palace”), it enjoys a $300 million endowment, including more than $23 million in cash. It fundraises ceaselessly. It’s no coincidence that SPLC co-founder Morris S. Dees Jr. has been inducted into the Direct Marketing Association’s Hall of Fame.

Despite numerous exposés over the years in publications spanning the political spectrum—including Harper’s, The Progressive, The Weekly Standard, Reason, the Baltimore Sun, and even the SPLC’s hometown newspaper, the Montgomery Advertiser—the liberal establishment continues to treat the group as credible, largely because its preoccupation with right-wing bigotry aligns with the stereotypical view of liberals who dominate newspapers like the Washington Post and New York Times. In our polarized culture, the epithet “hate group” is the ultimate slander of political opponents. The SPLC’s spurious imprimatur gives mere calumny gravitas, allowing liberal journalists to wield its highly charged judgments as a weapon, citing it as if it were a dispassionate authority. Many liberal (or merely lazy) journalists discredit conservative organizations by noting that they are “listed by the SPLC as a hate group,” treating its often dubious designations as gospel truth.

Mr. Perfect wrote:

Nonc Hilaire wrote: Muslim, but not religious.

Lol you would have to spell that out for me. Is that like an atheist Christian.

Apollonius wrote:

Ibrahim wrote:The SPLC is a fine organization.

A demagogic bully - Mark Pulliam, City Journal, 27 July 2017
https://www.city-journal.org/html/demag ... 15370.html

The Southern Poverty Law Center demonizes respectable political opponents as “hate groups”—and keeps its coffers bulging.


... Critics of the SPLC accuse the lavishly funded organization of peddling fear and smearing political opponents—mostly conservatives—as bigots. Its “Hatewatch” list is avowedly ideological, acknowledging that it “monitors and exposes the activities of the American radical right.” Few left-wing organizations—and no Islamist groups—are branded in this way by the SPLC. Nevertheless, the SPLC, founded in 1971, has burrowed itself into the civil rights movement, the organized bar, the cloistered culture of large law firms, the education system, and even law enforcement as a champion for “the exploited, the powerless and the forgotten.” Its executives are richly compensated, some in excess of $400,000 annually. Operating from palatial six-story quarters in Montgomery, Alabama (sometimes called the “Poverty Palace”), it enjoys a $300 million endowment, including more than $23 million in cash. It fundraises ceaselessly. It’s no coincidence that SPLC co-founder Morris S. Dees Jr. has been inducted into the Direct Marketing Association’s Hall of Fame.

Despite numerous exposés over the years in publications spanning the political spectrum—including Harper’s, The Progressive, The Weekly Standard, Reason, the Baltimore Sun, and even the SPLC’s hometown newspaper, the Montgomery Advertiser—the liberal establishment continues to treat the group as credible, largely because its preoccupation with right-wing bigotry aligns with the stereotypical view of liberals who dominate newspapers like the Washington Post and New York Times. In our polarized culture, the epithet “hate group” is the ultimate slander of political opponents. The SPLC’s spurious imprimatur gives mere calumny gravitas, allowing liberal journalists to wield its highly charged judgments as a weapon, citing it as if it were a dispassionate authority. Many liberal (or merely lazy) journalists discredit conservative organizations by noting that they are “listed by the SPLC as a hate group,” treating its often dubious designations as gospel truth.

Nonc Hilaire wrote:I live in the Pulse shooting area. The international news coverage was wildly incorrect. The patsy was Muslim, but not religious. He attempted to join ISIS by phone during the event. There were at least two other shooters and someone holding the door closed who were never identified but were reported by survivors on local news interviews.

Mr. Perfect wrote:

Ibrahim wrote: Sounds great. Let's meet back here in 1000 years for the results.

I'm willing to do it next year. I'm willing to place bets on incel mass murders for the year 2019.

The SPLC is a fine organization. It makes sense that supporters of far-right politics don't like them though, and would support harassment lawsuits against them. Remember the alt-right/neo-nazi rule: free speech for us, censorship for everyone else.

The SPLC is a fine organization that had to pay millions to someone that they slandered.

What makes you think that?

I couldn't find any reference to it,

and their numbers didn't add up back of the envelope

I don't take your word for it.

Apollonius wrote:Mention has been made of the SPLC's famous 'Hate Map', which pinpoints localities in the U.S. where organizations (almost all of them with only a very few, maybe no, members) which promote hate.

But to repeat what was said then, their map is really just a map of organizations or groups that the SPLC wants their supporters, affiliates, and other viewers, especially in the 'respectable' media (eg., BBC, CNN, NYT) want you to hate.



Here are some better 'hate maps':


https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/ ... m947_0.png

https://www.washingtonpost.com/pbox.php ... t=20170517

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ap.svg.png

https://imgoat.com/uploads/a38a4a9316/87130.jpeg

http://www.womanstats.org/substatics/20 ... 1-2012.png

Ibrahim wrote: This seems to be a pattern some the "lone wolf" or "self-radicalized" attacks. A mentally ill or just not-too-bright loser adopts a half-understood ideology first to try and ameliorate their aimlessness and isolation, and eventually to justify violence. If you're from a Muslim background it will probably be sympathy with ISIS or whoever the next group of Islamist maniacs turns out to be. If you're from a European background it will probably be online communities of misogynists or white supremacists.

That said, if we're tabulating these things the Pulse shooter should be filed under "Islamist" terror attacks. Self-identification counts, and both Islamist terrorism and neo-nazi or incel terrorism present a similar model of online radicalization that we should take steps to combat.