On conservative and libertarian stupidity

[Parodite]

Interesting read, Parodite, yet, in my experience, many religious conservatives who are politically active see it as a mandate to have government impose their morality upon everyone. That's as far from libertarian as it gets. It's partly due to these busybody conservatives having been ascendant in the GOP that I still don't fully embrace it. The kind, gentle folk you describe might be a majority if not whipped along by a more vocal minority, just like many other groups,of course.

True enough. IIRC, when Heal Boortz was on the air, he often mentioned that if Republicans could learn to not talk about abortion, their membership roles might increase significantly.

But when people think they are on a mission from God, they start thinking that their special thinking should be adopted by everyone. The "We're special agents of God" herd has a tough time becoming "the big tent" herd.

noddy nailed it long ago with one word, indifference.

Indifference is lethal. I think you are a special agent SM, it is a pity you don't believe it yourself.

[Doc]

Some good brains at work here, but I put it in this thread nevertheless because it was a missed opportunity. Ayn Rand enthusiasts always have the same deficiency: they are unable to make their case.

How so.

True libertarians not being able to make their case and only repetitively throw their messianic "deregulation" into the air waves are the greatest threat to individual freedom.

Libertarion/Randites yearn for the US Constitution as it was before the Federal Reserve.

It worked great.

Deregulation is a hoax, it doesn't exist. Changing regulation does exist however. Grizzly Adams has no government regulation his behavior, but nature pulls all the regulating strings that constrain and shape his actions. A "self-regulating" free market with property rights is in part created by government regulations creating that space with law and law enforcement protecting the playing field, and within that space behavior is regulated by a plethora of forces and variables. Libertarians who just blab deregulation are pulling a bag over your head.

I think pulling a bag over your head is in the Libertarian code..

Apparently according to Trump anyway the bureaucracy is happily deleting regulations off the books. Trump's original rule was scratch two regulations for ever new regulation. He says they are doing much better than that. It seems they are happy, for whatever reason, to remove regulations.

[Parodite]

How to fight or is resistance futile?

It looks more and more a lost case. Democrats cheating with vote counting.

Strange that the USA is able to produce the highest tech, has the best universities in the world.. but is not able to create a water-proof election system resistant to fraud. It begs the question.. how much do Mericans actually care about their democracy? Can't be that much...

Maybe an economic default, democracy killed with maggots feeding on the carcasses. With the constitution and bill of rights hanging in frames on walls for decorating purposes and as trophies on display in courts where the new Gods of Social Justice rule inspired by their own mood of the day. Autocratic rule returned under a new guise; the face of a caring mother.

Maybe when all is lost a new urge to fight emerges! But it will be much harder this time. A new world order type China with algorithms occupying the techno-communist seats of the globalist party controlling all the input and output. Full surveillance and AI censorship. The new emperor code-Xi, everybody follows its orders - hardly being aware of that fact. Nobody of course has ever seen it as it runs on OS-666. Is it even there? You don't know.. and you never know.

The Great Invisible will be in charge again. Of course it also produces its own cult of worship. Not that much changed...perhaps.

[Parodite]

I think pulling a bag over your head is in the Libertarian code..

Apparently according to Trump anyway the bureaucracy is happily deleting regulations off the books. Trump's original rule was scratch two regulations for ever new regulation. He says they are doing much better than that. It seems they are happy, for whatever reason, to remove regulations.

I also have little doubt there exist way too many regulations. They are cancerous. But it still and always matters what the specifics, the effects are. Less regulations doesn't mean that things will necessarily improve.

On the other hand, it is true that if the cancer is so wide spread and massive... even an untrained and blindfolded surgeon who starts to chop away body tissue at random is doing the patient a great service already.

[Doc]

How to fight or is resistance futile?

It looks more and more a lost case. Democrats cheating with vote counting.

Strange that the USA is able to produce the highest tech, has the best universities in the world.. but is not able to create a water-proof election system resistant to fraud. It begs the question.. how much do Mericans actually care about their democracy? Can't be that much...

Maybe an economic default, democracy killed with maggots feeding on the carcasses. With the constitution and bill of rights hanging in frames on walls for decorating purposes and as trophies on display in courts where the new Gods of Social Justice rule inspired by their own mood of the day. Autocratic rule returned under a new guise; the face of a caring mother.

Maybe when all is lost a new urge to fight emerges! But it will be much harder this time. A new world order type China with algorithms occupying the techno-communist seats of the globalist party controlling all the input and output. Full surveillance and AI censorship. The new emperor code-Xi, everybody follows its orders - hardly being aware of that fact. Nobody of course has ever seen it as it runs on OS-666. Is it even there? You don't know.. and you never know.

The Great Invisible will be in charge again. Of course it also produces its own cult of worship. Not that much changed...perhaps.

Well it seems that the head of voting for at least BRoward County FL is willing to go to jail for election fraud.

[Simple Minded]

Indifference is lethal. I think you are a special agent SM, it is a pity you don't believe it yourself.

My god says that deplorable hemorrhoids are more special than the other hapless bastards who are perpetually claiming that they speak for him.

Humility is the proof in the cosmic pudding.

[noddy]

being indifferent to bad outcomes doesnt mean you didnt try for the good outcome - it just means you try and minimize crying over spilled milk.

the modern super organsim is bigger than any one humans ideas for it, or understanding of it - we are all reduced to soothsayer economists, sniffing at the entrails of statistical outcomes.

i must say that in my more morbid moments I dont have much hope for new world liberty , old world europe shows the endgame for these cultural quirks.

[Simple Minded]

being indifferent to bad outcomes doesnt mean you didnt try for the good outcome - it just means you try and minimize crying over spilled milk.

the modern super organsim is bigger than any one humans ideas for it, or understanding of it - we are all reduced to soothsayer economists, sniffing at the entrails of statistical outcomes.

i must say that in my more morbid moments I dont have much hope for new world liberty , old world europe shows the endgame for these cultural quirks.

very well said. I heard a commenter the other day state that their research indicated that humans are biologically hardwired to be able to deal with only about 150 people. His point was that thru much of history, people tended to self-segregate into small groups.

That might explain the tendency for hyper-simplification into group identity. I have long thought that group identity is mental shorthand or laziness. Perhaps we just don't have the software upgrades to deal with billions of unique individuals.

There's more than 150 people in the small area of my zip code!!! Mental overload imminent! Initiate group ID US-Them software protocols: dems, repubs, vets, blacks, whites, jews, Presbyterians, Baptists, left-handers, Merkins, Yurps, Striners, Asians, etc.

Modern communication tech maybe overloading our narrow bandwidth brains. We're trying to drink from a fire hose.

[Parodite]

Indifference is hardly about spilled milk. It is about us decent civilians sitting idle, while corruption has taken over the election process backed by a criminal CIA FBI NSA cohort married to democrat operatives and MSM click-baiters doing the diversions to keep everybody busy looking elsewhere: any gossip will do, clickbait perfect.

Something to shiver about:

PZ_XSd1SXXk

Which brings me back to the question how to fight this corrupt, criminal and violent playing field? Decent people just don't have it in them to become a fanatic activist, let alone do an eye-for-an-eye. Sweet Judeo-Christians love to leave it all to God, and good libertarians and classical liberals just love to think good 'n smart things and live decently. I'm one of them of course Unfortunately I am of eye-for-an-eye type so things just get me boiling. Loads of spilled milk to clean.

[Mr. Perfect]

Interesting read, Parodite, yet, in my experience, many religious conservatives who are politically active see it as a mandate to have government impose their morality upon everyone. That's as far from libertarian as it gets. It's partly due to these busybody conservatives having been ascendant in the GOP that I still don't fully embrace it. The kind, gentle folk you describe might be a majority if not whipped along by a more vocal minority, just like many other groups,of course.

Everyone is trying to impose their morality on everyone else when they vote. Every single person. Including you.

[Mr. Perfect]

True enough. IIRC, when Neal Boortz was on the air, he often mentioned that if Republicans could learn to not talk about abortion, their membership roles might increase significantly.

Neal Bortz would likely be wrong. The GOP has won plenty on the pro life platform since 1980. In fact, in recent years the pro life position is near majority status.

But when people think they are on a mission from God, they start thinking that their special thinking should be adopted by everyone. The "We're special agents of God" herd has a tough time becoming "the big tent" herd.

noddy nailed it long ago with one word, indifference.

?

What's great about indifference.

[Mr. Perfect]

Indifference is hardly about spilled milk. It is about us decent civilians sitting idle, while corruption has taken over the election process backed by a criminal CIA FBI NSA cohort married to democrat operatives and MSM click-baiters doing the diversions to keep everybody busy looking elsewhere: any gossip will do, clickbait perfect.

Something to shiver about:

Which brings me back to the question how to fight this corrupt, criminal and violent playing field? Decent people just don't have it in them to become a fanatic activist, let alone do an eye-for-an-eye. Sweet Judeo-Christians love to leave it all to God, and good libertarians and classical liberals just love to think good 'n smart things and live decently. I'm one of them of course Unfortunately I am of eye-for-an-eye type so things just get me boiling. Loads of spilled milk to clean.

Honestly we are approaching violent uprising.

[Mr. Perfect]

I think so too. The silent majority of people are moderate, decent democrats and republicans. A minority of vocal fanatics make most of the noise in the room and the closer you get to the places of vacant power it all becomes a frenzied pack of piranhas. The USA in a two-party stranglehold doesn't help either.

I'm not so sure.

SM committed the fallacy the other day that 80% of the people were in the middle and think like him, it was the fringe 20% causing all the problems. This defies all logic, in a Democracy 80% easily override 20%.

No, the truth is that no more than 10% ever change their vote. We have 45 to 45 extremists pitted against each other, vying for the 10% middle.

It's the opposite of SM says, which I imagine he finds terrifying.

[Mr. Perfect]

How to fight or is resistance futile?

It looks more and more a lost case.

We are getting there.

[Simple Minded]

I'm not so sure.

SM committed the fallacy the other day that 80% of the people were in the middle and think like him, it was the fringe 20% causing all the problems. This defies all logic, in a Democracy 80% easily override 20%.

No, the truth is that no more than 10% ever change their vote. We have 45 to 45 extremists pitted against each other, vying for the 10% middle.

It's the opposite of SM says, which I imagine he finds terrifying.

Not terrifying at all Mr. P. I have long thought that your world, thankfully, is very different from my world.

Mr. Perfect: "This is my world view. Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong and must be evil or terrified or both. The election is over. Hilary won. Permanent Republican supermajority. Democrats are finished forever."

You're 0 and 2 since 2016. So, who is terrified? We talked about your imagination/projection addiction before...... You might want to get some professional help.

[Parodite]

How to fight or is resistance futile?

It looks more and more a lost case.

We are getting there.

Will squeeze some ideas on how to fight later.

[Mr. Perfect]

Not terrifying at all Mr. P. I have long thought that your world, thankfully, is very different from my world.

I believe in objective reality. I don't believe people have different "worlds".

Eg, in my world Democrats just won the House. What happened in your "world".

Mr. Perfect: "This is my world view. Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong and must be evil or terrified or both.

Wow. That is not my worldview. I wonder why you need to believe this.

The election is over. Hilary won. Permanent Republican supermajority. Democrats are finished forever."

You're 0 and 2 since 2016. So, who is terrified? We talked about your imagination/projection addiction before...... You might want to get some professional help.

True. An occasional prediction doesn't come true. That is the nature of predicting things.

But in order to be able to taste the sweetness of victory, you have to risk a bitter defeat. Some people are afraid of that.

As such they never taste victory, and are always relegated to being a spectator watching on the sidelines.

[Mr. Perfect]

How to fight or is resistance futile?

It looks more and more a lost case.

We are getting there.

Will squeeze some ideas on how to fight later.

We will be fighting on, we just won't be winning enough, not for the rest of my life.

[crashtech66]

Interesting read, Parodite, yet, in my experience, many religious conservatives who are politically active see it as a mandate to have government impose their morality upon everyone. That's as far from libertarian as it gets. It's partly due to these busybody conservatives having been ascendant in the GOP that I still don't fully embrace it. The kind, gentle folk you describe might be a majority if not whipped along by a more vocal minority, just like many other groups,of course.

Everyone is trying to impose their morality on everyone else when they vote. Every single person. Including you.

I once had a boss who was a crook. Naturally, she thought everyone else was a crook, too. She is as right as you are.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Interesting read, Parodite, yet, in my experience, many religious conservatives who are politically active see it as a mandate to have government impose their morality upon everyone. That's as far from libertarian as it gets. It's partly due to these busybody conservatives having been ascendant in the GOP that I still don't fully embrace it. The kind, gentle folk you describe might be a majority if not whipped along by a more vocal minority, just like many other groups,of course.

Everyone is trying to impose their morality on everyone else when they vote. Every single person. Including you.

I once had a boss who was a crook. Naturally, she thought everyone else was a crook, too. She is as right as you are.

The Republican and Democratic Parties are omnibus platforms for different sets of groups. The Republican side of the equation currently houses those dissidents from the upper middle-class fads of the day, as well as those in support of a greater economic theme of encouraging state and national policies which would lead to affordable family formation.

This makes the Republican party a natural home for social conservatives. But one where they are so insignificant, zero of their interests or platforms get a hearing within the party outside of stump speeches, gestures and much verbalizing when it's time to grouse up voters.

In the hierarchical pecking order of the party, they are way down on a totem pole which starts with the Chamber of Commerce types, then (arguably) the military-interests types followed by the bourgeoisie, soi-disant libertarian types (who may be over-represented as "Official Conservatives" with media sinecures tend from this group.)

If anything, they are probably slightly underrepresented (but let's not over-exaggerate it), in terms of policy interests of a cross-section of the population. Their most successful issue- abortion- has actually been trending for a long time now their way and fits in nicely with the overall economic theme; which are the only reasons it's mentioned prominently. And yet still, the Republican Party with the full federal government, could not lift a finger to even give them a sentimental gesture.

But these people are the great obstacle to starboard world peace?

Who's leg are we pulling and why should we make the party smaller?

[Mr. Perfect]

Interesting read, Parodite, yet, in my experience, many religious conservatives who are politically active see it as a mandate to have government impose their morality upon everyone. That's as far from libertarian as it gets. It's partly due to these busybody conservatives having been ascendant in the GOP that I still don't fully embrace it. The kind, gentle folk you describe might be a majority if not whipped along by a more vocal minority, just like many other groups,of course.

Everyone is trying to impose their morality on everyone else when they vote. Every single person. Including you.

I once had a boss who was a crook. Naturally, she thought everyone else was a crook, too. She is as right as you are.

So when you vote you do it with no moral consideration?

[Simple Minded]

Not terrifying at all Mr. P. I have long thought that your world, thankfully, is very different from my world.

I believe in objective reality. I don't believe people have different "worlds".

Eg, in my world Democrats just won the House. What happened in your "world".

Mr. Perfect: "This is my world view. Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong and must be evil or terrified or both.

Wow. That is not my worldview. I wonder why you need to believe this.

The election is over. Hilary won. Permanent Republican supermajority. Democrats are finished forever."

You're 0 and 2 since 2016. So, who is terrified? We talked about your imagination/projection addiction before...... You might want to get some professional help.

True. An occasional prediction doesn't come true. That is the nature of predicting things.

But in order to be able to taste the sweetness of victory, you have to risk a bitter defeat. Some people are afraid of that.

As such they never taste victory, and are always relegated to being a spectator watching on the sidelines.

Mr. P, you are a gem!

Reality is objective to be sure, but human interaction would be boring as hell if people didn't misinterpret it.

"Even when you're wrong your right!" Weeks prior to the 2016, you were absolutely certain Trump would loose and chastised all who thought otherwise. So certain, you were physically ill on election night. For two years you proclaim your prediction record is infallible and the republican supermajority is permanent. How could anyone be so wrong as to disagree with the infallible oracle? You were equally certain and arrogant of that prediction. Now suddenly you seem cognizant of reality and of actually being wrong.

Don't diaper ( Whoa! Best Freudian typo ever! It was supposed to be despair!). dude. Keep the faith!

Democrats are just as prone to self-destruction as the Republicans. Flip flops on majority parties seem designed into the electoral system and human nature. Republicans will regain the house and lose the senate soon enough.

[Mr. Perfect]

Mr. P, you are a gem!

I hear that a lot.

Reality is objective to be sure, but human interaction would be boring as hell if people didn't misinterpret it.

"Even when you're wrong your right!" Weeks prior to the 2016, you were absolutely certain Trump would loose and chastised all who thought otherwise. So certain, you were physically ill on election night. For two years you proclaim your prediction record is infallible and the republican supermajority is permanent. How could anyone be so wrong as to disagree with the infallible oracle? You were equally certain and arrogant of that prediction. Now suddenly you seem cognizant of reality and of actually being wrong.

I know you don't follow a lot of politics, but Trump lost the popular vote by 2-3% exactly as I predicted. It was astonishing how accurate I was. I think I was the most accurate pollster out there.

However, tragically, my prediction about the end of the Democrat Party was indeed wrong. To our eternal dismay.

Don't diaper ( Whoa! Best Freudian typo ever! It was supposed to be despair!). dude. Keep the faith!

Democrats are just as prone to self-destruction as the Republicans. Flip flops on majority parties seem designed into the electoral system and human nature. Republicans will regain the house and lose the senate soon enough.

It doesn't really matter. My goal is not to flip flop with Democrats, but to eliminate them forever and reduce the government by 75%. Certainly the GOP will regain control of the House again at some point, but it doesn't matter to me anymore.

My goal was to see 75% reduction in government, the ability to walk into a sporting good store in San Francisco and buy a machine gun with no questions asked and walk out the door. I will never see that reality in my life time now. It was all for nothing.

[crashtech66]

Interesting read, Parodite, yet, in my experience, many religious conservatives who are politically active see it as a mandate to have government impose their morality upon everyone. That's as far from libertarian as it gets. It's partly due to these busybody conservatives having been ascendant in the GOP that I still don't fully embrace it. The kind, gentle folk you describe might be a majority if not whipped along by a more vocal minority, just like many other groups,of course.

Everyone is trying to impose their morality on everyone else when they vote. Every single person. Including you.

I once had a boss who was a crook. Naturally, she thought everyone else was a crook, too. She is as right as you are.

So when you vote you do it with no moral consideration?

That's not the same thing as voting for the government to impose stricter moral standards. I wish you wouldn't move the goalposts.

[Simple Minded]

It doesn't really matter. My goal is not to flip flop with Democrats, but to eliminate them forever and reduce the government by 75%. Certainly the GOP will regain control of the House again at some point, but it doesn't matter to me anymore.

My goal was to see 75% reduction in government, the ability to walk into a sporting good store in San Francisco and buy a machine gun with no questions asked and walk out the door. I will never see that reality in my life time now. It was all for nothing.

I agree. It really does not matter. Barring some strategic nuclear strike on DC, or a break up of the country into several countries, I doubt the federal govt will ever be reduced by any significant percentage, yet alone 75%.

Once in DC, the money and the power are too addictive. Republicans just don't have the stomach for it. Neither do the Democrats. Incentives are the same for those in power.

It was not all for nothing, you enjoyed the hell out of it. I heard Limbaugh say the other day the whole reason the Repubs lost the house was McCain's vote not to repeal Obamacare. I think Trump signing the omnibus spending bill was another stake in the heart of the Repub party. He should have sent it back to the house. Refusal to address illegal immigration was probably the third stake in the heart.

Limbaugh and Hannity should join forces, seek a few rich donors and start a third party. The newcomer Obama displacing the entire 2008 Dem presidential field, and the non-Repub, non-conservative Trump doing the same to the entire Repub field in 2016 show the country is ready for some more options.