Gender and Identity

[Typhoon]

9XhXdMbfNKo

A humourous take on the issue, but it raises intriguing questions . . .

[Antipatros]

Indeed. If all contestants must be natural-born women, must they all remain "natural"? Should the pageant allow breast augmentation? Botox? Preparation H to correct undereye bags? Cosmetic dentistry? Where's the line?

[Ibrahim]

Philosophically speaking, this pageant should take place in Bangkok.

[Typhoon]

Indeed. If all contestants must be natural-born women, must they all remain "natural"? Should the pageant allow breast augmentation? Botox? Preparation H to correct undereye bags? Cosmetic dentistry? Where's the line?

Indeed.

Anecdotally, it's often crossed my mind how strong and different is the male and female self-identification of gender.

Hard, if not impossible, for me to imagine what it would be like to self-identify with the gender opposite from one's own physical body.

On another note, I've read that there is no explicit requirement in the pageant application - contract that a contestant be born physically a woman. If so, then she may have a legal case, no?

I suppose she could take her banning as a back-handed compliment: the organizers were sufficiently concerned that she may win . . .

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

I would vote for shim.

[Antipatros]

On another note, I've read that there is no explicit requirement in the pageant application - contract that a contestant be born physically a woman. If so, then she may have a legal case, no?

So the National Post reports:

Contest rules state that contestants must be Canadian citizens and between the ages of 18 and 27. They cannot be pregnant or married, but there is no mention of any cosmetic or sex-reassignment surgery being prohibited.

They also report growing international outrage at her disqualification and an online petition drive to have her reinstated.

There was an attempt last year to amend the B.C. Human Rights Code so that "sex" would expressly include "gender identity and gender expression." However, that was a private member's bill which only received first reading before dying on the order paper.

Some B.C. human rights tribunals have said that "sex" as a prohibited ground of discrimination includes discriminating against a transsexual.

The problem for Talackova is that the B.C. legislation refers to discrimination in specific circumstances, such as renting property or providing "any accommodation, service or facility customarily available to the public." I don't know if the authorities there would be willing to construe a beauty pageant as a "service." If they would, the Trump people might well argue that being born a woman is a "bona fide and reasonable justification" in a beauty pageant for women. Which brings everything back to square one....

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

It's hilarious that people are debating whether or not to let a man into a woman's beauty contest (even more ridiculous than that, in 2012, we still have beauty contests at all).

[Typhoon]

It's hilarious that people are debating whether or not to let a man into a woman's beauty contest

On your authority? I don't that's sufficient.

(even more ridiculous than that, in 2012, we still have beauty contests at all).

Are you a sports fan? Do you follow and cheer on some pro sports team?

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

I also enjoy the fact that people who champion an enlightened, post-gender point-of-view on this issue are arguing for this nice lady to be allowed into one of the most gender-regressive events in the world.

[Typhoon]

I also enjoy the fact that people who champion an enlightened, post-gender point-of-view on this issue are arguing for this nice lady to be allowed into one of the most gender-regressive events in the world.

Once again. Are you a sports fan? Do you follow and cheer on some pro sports team?

[noddy]

id get more into this whole beauty is oppression thing if more women didnt enjoy being beautiful and get so much pleasure out of playing round with their appearance... i believe if being fat n ugly was the cultural ideal then we would have a whole bunch of pretty skinny chicks angsting over that aswell.

which funnily enough is an experience i had in polynesia, the "hot chick" (from my western perspective) was very insecure about her inability to pack on the pounds.

are body builders victims ?

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

I also enjoy the fact that people who champion an enlightened, post-gender point-of-view on this issue are arguing for this nice lady to be allowed into one of the most gender-regressive events in the world.

Once again. Are you a sports fan? Do you follow and cheer on some pro sports team?

I'm apparently a fan of post-op trannies, if my initial reaction to this Miss Universe contestant is any indication. Does quidditch count?

[Typhoon]

I also enjoy the fact that people who champion an enlightened, post-gender point-of-view on this issue are arguing for this nice lady to be allowed into one of the most gender-regressive events in the world.

Once again. Are you a sports fan? Do you follow and cheer on some pro sports team?

I'm apparently a fan of post-op trannies, if my initial reaction to this Miss Universe contestant is any indication. Does quidditch count?

The point is that beauty contests are a way women compete just as men compete through sports.

[ Yes, women also compete through sports, and there are outstanding female athletes, but what women's pro sport has the same number of viewers?
Also, how much attention is given to a woman top athlete's appearance compared to that of a man. ]

Women are just as interested in female beauty contests as men are if not more so.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Hmm... being judged based on skill and performace is not quite the same thing as getting front of a bunch of men in a bathing suit and having them decide if you're pretty enough to deserve a blue ribbon, like a hog at the county fair, but if you say so...

[Simple Minded]

It's hilarious that people are debating whether or not to let a man into a woman's beauty contest (even more ridiculous than that, in 2012, we still have beauty contests at all).

Exactly the kind of post an ugly person would make..

Hey... you have the assests on which to capitalize, why not? Is that not what all entertainers/sports stars/celebrities/politicians do?

I would vote for shim too....

"You are the slave of those from whom you seek approval."

Are the beautiful and famous oppressed by others, oppressed by themselves, happy, miserable? Lets exclude the whiney, cry baby politicians we all know for the time being.......

To each their own.

[Simple Minded]

I also enjoy the fact that people who champion an enlightened, post-gender point-of-view on this issue are arguing for this nice lady to be allowed into one of the most gender-regressive events in the world.

It has been my experience that those who consider themselves to be enlightened, usually ain't.

And those who consider themselves to be more enlightned than me are a bunch of jealous, racist profilers.

[Hoosiernorm]

So is this man really a dolphin?

[Typhoon]

Hmm... being judged based on skill and performace is not quite the same thing as getting in front of a bunch of men in a bathing suit and having them decide if you're pretty enough to deserve a blue ribbon, like a hog at the county fair, but if you say so...

I would guess that the training and preparation involved at a national level beauty contest is considerable.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

So is this man really a dolphin?

I heard he applied for a job as a performer at Sea World, and is suing for discrimination because he was turned down.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Hmm... being judged based on skill and performace is not quite the same thing as getting in front of a bunch of men in a bathing suit and having them decide if you're pretty enough to deserve a blue ribbon, like a hog at the county fair, but if you say so...

I would guess that the training and preparation involved at a national level beauty contest is considerable.

Yes, I suppose anyone can do it if they just work hard enough (or, in this case, have enough money for surgeries). "If the people don't think you're pretty enough, it's because you didn't work hard enough. Now get back to the toilet and throw up your salad, slacker!"

[Typhoon]

Hmm... being judged based on skill and performace is not quite the same thing as getting in front of a bunch of men in a bathing suit and having them decide if you're pretty enough to deserve a blue ribbon, like a hog at the county fair, but if you say so...

I would guess that the training and preparation involved at a national level beauty contest is considerable.

Yes, I suppose anyone can do it if they just work hard enough (or, in this case, have enough money for surgeries). "If the people don't think you're pretty enough, it's because you didn't work hard enough. Now get back to the toilet and throw up your salad, slacker!"

Of course, a male pro athlete would never even consider using something like a performance enhancing drug . . .

[noddy]

turning mutton into lamb is a skill that needs lots of deportment training and camouflage skills and what not.

ive seen plenty of people reduce sport to "naturally gifted wallies chasing a lump of pig leather around" aswell.

the greeks used to blur the lines between to the two, perhaps thats the truth of it.

[Typhoon]

9XhXdMbfNKo

A humourous take on the issue, but it raises intriguing questions . . .

An innie, then an outie, now an innie again . . .

CNN | Miss Universe allows transgender contestant back into competition

In a statement late Monday night, the Miss Universe Organization said Jenna Talackova can compete provided "she meets the legal gender recognition requirements of Canada, and the standards established by other international competitions."

The statement, however, did not elaborate on what the requirements were.

The news came a day before Talackova was expected to hold a news conference with high-profile feminist lawyer Gloria Allred to talk about her experience.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Gaaaaaa...... err, dah...... If David's so gonna have a cow over this, I suppose I hafta keep this in the closet......:/...........

[Typhoon]

Gaaaaaa...... err, dah...... If David's so gonna have a cow over this, I suppose I hafta keep this in the closet......:/...........

You're very knowledgeable about such things . . .

Spenglerman doth protest too much, methinks.