Hate Crimes

[cincinnatus]

Actually, I do blame the cast you ID'd for bringing in the white-black side. GZ is a self-identified Hispanic. But, a dead 17-year old and no charges filed that night? That brings in the DA and PD, and their either competence, or motivation. Hell, even if you accept GZ's story word for word, all it does is admit he racially stereotyped (what exactly "suspicious" was TM doing other than walking at night?), thus making it possible to believe the 17-year old was the one with the fear that some stranger was following him, and chose to stand-his-ground and defend himself against this random dude. It is the racial-stereotyping, and the common defense of it by the "right" that makes it nationally interesting. It has been waaaaay politicized by the cast you ID'd though (excluding Ibrahim, as I don't think he's a U.S. national figure).

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, but I'm wondering if it is impossible for a black person to act suspiciously, or if we know that white people, or any other color people, are never at looked at or confronted for suspicious activity. I understand Tinker is white and according to him he has been relentlessly confronted by NYPD pre fleabagging for his suspicious activities. Just as one example.

I'm wondering why you would broadcast your intent to murder someone over race onto a taped 9-11 call. Son of a judge I'm told.

I'd define suspicous as walking up to multiple homes and looking in windows, trying to open doors, trying to open random cars. Just walking doesn't seem to fit the bill.

I don't see how one can't have that opinion about this case and still see how the race hustlers are doing their usual overplay (evidently the Duke Lacross case didn't induce any sense of restraint). Why does it offend you so much?

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

GZ seems to have been overzealous, but let's not turn it into something it wasn't. There had been a spate of robberies by young black males in the neighborhood recently, and that was why he showed special interest in TM, a young black male he didn't recognize in a neighborhood he knew very well, at night walking around in the rain. I agree he was overzealous and in over his head, but there is plenty of evidence that this wasn't a "don't like the color of his muddy skin" kind of racial profiling. It certainly wasn't fair to TM, obviously.

[Demon of Undoing]

Cincinatus

First, just so you know, Autocorrect wants to change your handle to "Cinci ass". Apparently, the town is famous.

Second, out of respect for better men than I, I have to clarify. I am not former SF. I was born into a family that, where intact, was in some very nonexistent units in the Vietnam era and after. These are often multigenerational affairs, with loose nets of " uncles", and when I was raised at all ( at least 50% of my first eleven years!), it was by those guys. Brothers, cousins, nephews and friends in the business abound. They made me a mascot, so childhood was interesting and short. I'm as tight with it as you can be without having " been there", but I haven't " been there". I am both thankful and dishonored.

I did, however, survive the peak years of the violence of the War on Drugs. On both sides, in fact.


And I was wondering when the " whites" comment would draw attention. I find it a trigger word. This is interesting for a few reasons. It implies a distinction where once there was a default. This is uncomfortable, because it acknowledges the truth that in many areas, " white" is just another subgroup. In Central Florida, such is exacerbated, as a large portion of the demographic that there is, is functionally inert. The visitors and the retired are largely disengaged from most every issue that would confront someone feeling the struggle. So the white slice of the pie that can be seen to make a cultural presence is even smaller than it appears.

Don't get too fast with the " ah HAH!" ,though. This is gonna have repercussions yet. Calling 'em " scary" isn't an insult, it's a description. And a warning. They have been artificially stoked into a false sense of existential crisis ( "They're coming right at you!") for going on two generations, all the while facing a real existential crisis ( demographic slip) that they even mention at their own social peril. Poorly equipped to confront the real problem, they are preparing like hell for the ( mostly) exaggerated one. It's a stew of cognitive dissonance, fear, ignorance, violent cultural tendencies, manipulation and a coming, nasty surprise. Hint: what demographic category practically owns the " lone wolf/ solo operator" label, the most dangerous domestic terrorist category?

Bing bing bing bing.


Incidentally, I am not fearless. Somewhere, Roseanne Barr breathes.

[Yukon Cornelius]

TM is a national case because GZ was not arrested, pure and simple.

He was arrested Tinker. There is video of him in handcuffs at the Police station.

'Can attest to that on the video -- I saw one officer do a double-take at the back of Zimmerman's head. (must have been Republican)

Tinker, we need to let this shake out. Let the FOIA or whatever applies here kick in -- no one's going to hide. You can't stop the signal, Mal.

(Unless it's like the 2000 Florida returns -- then it won't count.)

[Yukon Cornelius]

Wait, Samoans are WHITE... right?

[Demon of Undoing]

I thought he was a 'Rican.

[cincinnatus]

Cincinatus

First, just so you know, Autocorrect wants to change your handle to "Cinci ass". Apparently, the town is famous.

Second, out of respect for better men than I, I have to clarify. I am not former SF. I was born into a family that, where intact, was in some very nonexistent units in the Vietnam era and after. These are often multigenerational affairs, with loose nets of " uncles", and when I was raised at all ( at least 50% of my first eleven years!), it was by those guys. Brothers, cousins, nephews and friends in the business abound. They made me a mascot, so childhood was interesting and short. I'm as tight with it as you can be without having " been there", but I haven't " been there". I am both thankful and dishonored.

I did, however, survive the peak years of the violence of the War on Drugs. On both sides, in fact.


And I was wondering when the " whites" comment would draw attention. I find it a trigger word. This is interesting for a few reasons. It implies a distinction where once there was a default. This is uncomfortable, because it acknowledges the truth that in many areas, " white" is just another subgroup. In Central Florida, such is exacerbated, as a large portion of the demographic that there is, is functionally inert. The visitors and the retired are largely disengaged from most every issue that would confront someone feeling the struggle. So the white slice of the pie that can be seen to make a cultural presence is even smaller than it appears.

Don't get too fast with the " ah HAH!" ,though. This is gonna have repercussions yet. Calling 'em " scary" isn't an insult, it's a description. And a warning. They have been artificially stoked into a false sense of existential crisis ( "They're coming right at you!") for going on two generations, all the while facing a real existential crisis ( demographic slip) that they even mention at their own social peril. Poorly equipped to confront the real problem, they are preparing like hell for the ( mostly) exaggerated one. It's a stew of cognitive dissonance, fear, ignorance, violent cultural tendencies, manipulation and a coming, nasty surprise. Hint: what demographic category practically owns the " lone wolf/ solo operator" label, the most dangerous domestic terrorist category?

Bing bing bing bing.


Incidentally, I am not fearless. Somewhere, Roseanne Barr breathes.

Sorry, thought you were a Ranger in a past life (I remember the former police thing, and that you walked away due to the drug war).

All I was (not in the eloguent manner of some here) trying to point out is everyone has life experiences and perceptions (whether from Hollywood, news, 2nd hand, RUMINT, in person like me) that are hard-wired to their innate "spidey sense." In this country, our "race" relations tend to become shouting matches with no listening or empathy. Maybe if more people would just listen to each other, and to try to respect that maybe the other guy/girl had different events/stimuli that color their own filters, we might stop the worst excesses. Maybe people could remember that compromise ain't a dirty word. After what I saw in the Balkans in person with IFOR and KFOR, I don't want us to keep going down this road. Maybe it's too late anyway.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Is Demon of Undoing the former Berserk Savant? He's the only other person whose posts I've enjoyed reading this much. And if they're not the same person, we've gotta get you two in the same room some time.

[Demon of Undoing]

Is Demon of Undoing the former Berserk Savant? He's the only other person whose posts I've enjoyed reading this much. And if they're not the same person, we've gotta get you two in the same room some time.

Guilty as charged.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Is Demon of Undoing the former Berserk Savant? He's the only other person whose posts I've enjoyed reading this much. And if they're not the same person, we've gotta get you two in the same room some time.

Guilty as charged.

Jesus f*cking Christ... it's an honor to make your acquaintance again, sir.

I say the following in all seriousness: If you haven't given consideration to a career as a writer, you absolutely should. I would work a shitty job to pay good money...

[Mr. Perfect]

I'd define suspicous as walking up to multiple homes and looking in windows, trying to open doors, trying to open random cars. Just walking doesn't seem to fit the bill.

To be brief, I will simply say I have a hard time believing a hispanic son of judge is going to call 911 (tape recorded voice) based on race gut instincts, and that's before we get to the fact that Martin was apparently wearing a hoodie, in the evening, in the rain (i think I read), so may have not actually know the race.

edit, if you listen to the audio of the Zimmerman 911 call, when asked he said he looks black, and later clarifies that he is, so when he made the call he probably did not know.

I don't see how one can't have that opinion about this case and still see how the race hustlers are doing their usual overplay (evidently the Duke Lacross case didn't induce any sense of restraint). Why does it offend you so much?

It just seems like at this point it feeds the fire. If his initial urge to check him out was indeed race, it doesn't actually matter that much (no law against it) and frankly there isn't really any evidence that is what it was.

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Is Demon of Undoing the former Berserk Savant? He's the only other person whose posts I've enjoyed reading this much. And if they're not the same person, we've gotta get you two in the same room some time.

Guilty as charged.

Jesus f*cking Christ... it's an honor to make your acquaintance again, sir.

I say the following in all seriousness: If you haven't given consideration to a career as a writer, you absolutely should. I would work a shitty job to pay good money...

I don't mean to gush, but I thought I had lost you for good until Tinker turned me onto this reincarnated forum.

[Simple Minded]

Because this gives the various talking heads, race hucksters, and racists of all shapes and sizes something to do and chew upon?

Hey, don't be too hard on them. Even these kinds of people need something to hustle and make a buck out of!

If barbar college's admission policies weren't so racist, Big Al would be gainfully employed right now....

Good assessment IMO Ammianus...... there is a lot of money to be made in agitation.

Anyone think this might have something to do with 2012 being an election year..... and Florida a swing state....?

[Ibrahim]

Check this:

Zimmermann harassed the wrong guy this time . . He should have taken his beating like a man. . . a firearm was unfair.

. . If I had been there I would have been rooting for Trayvon to beat his ass, . . Trayvon got screwed . . Zimmermann was the one deserving the short end of stick . .

I'm embarrassed to say that this drivel was posted last night over on our Alaska forum. This sort of guilty-until-proven-innocent, guilty-because-I-think-so, lynch-law, kangaroo-court, we-don't-need-no-stinking-legal-system mentality is only too typical of the American social atmosphere these days. The country has bigger problems than who becomes the next POTUS.

As ALI would say, what a zooooooooooo . .

All legal systems have some kind of provision for self-defense, the question is in which circumstances you are allowed to use deadly force. I would not take the position that Zimmerman "deserved" to be beaten up (I think his claims for being viciously beaten are exaggerated), but I do think that his use of deadly force was excessive to the point of being criminal.

It also seems, based on the balance of the evidence, the Zimmerman caused or instigated the confrontation. Under Canadian law (with which I am naturally more familiar) you cannot claim self-defense in any confrontation that you provoke. Thus if you believe Zimmerman started the confrontation then his shooting of Martin is criminal (i.e. it is murder).

Florida takes a different stance (Zimmerman only needs to believe that his life is in danger) so I think he will probably walk. This is correct under Florida law, though I don't think it's just.



The knee-jerk anger at Zimmerman seems largely based on race ("another innocent black youth slain" etc.), but the knee-jerk support for Zimmerman seems to mostly be from people who like the idea of being allowed to shoot people in self-defense. As such, I think the two "camps" are largely talking past one another.

[Ibrahim]

So if a Chinese neighborhood watchmen had killed an Armenian, and walked on self-defense, we would be seeing the same coverage? Laughable.

It's a given that the news is "discriminatory" about what it covers. Pretty white college girl disappears? National news. Prostitute disappears? Nobody knows or cares. White-on-black racism, big story. Chinese-on-Armenian racism, not news.
Anything potentially linked to "terrorism" is automatically huge news. Average John gets picked up in some weird sex sting, not news. Congressman does, huge news. Etc.



I only know about the Trayvon Martin shooting because it blew up and became a major news story in the US. I expect most people here (except maybe DoU, who lives nearby) are in the same boat. But since we've all arbitrarily been familiarized with the story there is nothing particularly wrong with debating the ins and outs of the story.

[Demon of Undoing]

Any insight I may have is purposefully blunted by the fact that I try to be as thick as I can safely get away with. Far more fun.

[Mr. Perfect]

All legal systems have some kind of provision for self-defense, the question is in which circumstances you are allowed to use deadly force. I would not take the position that Zimmerman "deserved" to be beaten up (I think his claims for being viciously beaten are exaggerated), but I do think that his use of deadly force was excessive to the point of being criminal.

It also seems, based on the balance of the evidence, the Zimmerman caused or instigated the confrontation. Under Canadian law (with which I am naturally more familiar) you cannot claim self-defense in any confrontation that you provoke. Thus if you believe Zimmerman started the confrontation then his shooting of Martin is criminal (i.e. it is murder).

Well that would be retarded. To suggest that confronting a criminal would strip me of my right of self defense is idiotic. I'm so glad I live in America.

Florida takes a different stance (Zimmerman only needs to believe that his life is in danger) so I think he will probably walk. This is correct under Florida law, though I don't think it's just.

That is an idiotic thing to say. A child can read for them-self and easily understand you are totally wrong, so one wonders how a "lawyer" can get it so completely wrong. I have some ideas on why that is, but...

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/ind ... /0776.html

The knee-jerk anger at Zimmerman seems largely based on race ("another innocent black youth slain" etc.), but the knee-jerk support for Zimmerman seems to mostly be from people who like the idea of being allowed to shoot people in self-defense. As such, I think the two "camps" are largely talking past one another.

Who wouldn't like to be able to shoot someone in self defense? Your characterization paints "knee jerk Zimmerman supporters" in a very good light.

[Mr. Perfect]

So if a Chinese neighborhood watchmen had killed an Armenian, and walked on self-defense, we would be seeing the same coverage? Laughable.

It's a given that the news is "discriminatory" about what it covers. Pretty white college girl disappears? National news. Prostitute disappears? Nobody knows or cares. White-on-black racism, big story. Chinese-on-Armenian racism, not news.
Anything potentially linked to "terrorism" is automatically huge news. Average John gets picked up in some weird sex sting, not news. Congressman does, huge news. Etc.



I only know about the Trayvon Martin shooting because it blew up and became a major news story in the US. I expect most people here (except maybe DoU, who lives nearby) are in the same boat. But since we've all arbitrarily been familiarized with the story there is nothing particularly wrong with debating the ins and outs of the story.

There is nothing wrong with debating the ins and outs, but there is something wrong to repeatedly claim things to be true that are not or that you could not possibly know, as you have done repeatedly. Why you would do that, well I have some ideas.

[Nonc Hilaire]

The real question is how much culpability does a HOA which promotes a "neighborhood watch" incurr.

[Enki]

Well that would be retarded. To suggest that confronting a criminal would strip me of my right of self defense is idiotic. I'm so glad I live in America.

Please present evidence that Trayvon Martin was a criminal.

[Mr. Perfect]

Well that would be retarded. To suggest that confronting a criminal would strip me of my right of self defense is idiotic. I'm so glad I live in America.

Please present evidence that Trayvon Martin was a criminal.

There isn't any in public. I imagine that if Zimmerman convinces a jury that Martin was attacking him with enough force the court will decide that that was a criminal act. But all of that remains to be seen.

However, that is beside the point. Ibrahim says (and he's a lawyer apparently) that in Canada the law is that if you confront somebody then you can't defend your life anymore. So that of course would include criminals. So that would be retarded, and I'm pretty sure not even factually correct. I confront suspicious people about once a year around my property, almost always I'm armed, and to suggest just because I ask someone why they are sitting next to my property with a running engine for 30 minutes, or hiding in some bushes means that I cannot do anything defensive if the guy pulls a gun and shoots me down is retarded and probably not illegal in Canada as Ibrahim claims.

I could be wrong about that, but if so it is just another reason not to copy Canadians.

[Ibrahim]

The real question is how much culpability does a HOA which promotes a "neighborhood watch" incurr.

Nothing in criminal court, but they should be named in a civil suit, and may be found partially liable as part of a wrongful death suit.

[Ibrahim]

Please present evidence that Trayvon Martin was a criminal.

Well, he was black and wearing a hoodie.

[Ibrahim]

Somebody PMed me asking about the actual statues and their differences. They are readily available online in their full versions, I'm going to post the sections relevant to the killing of Trayvon Martin below.


Canadian Criminal Code:

34. (1) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself.

(2) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted and who causes death or grievous bodily harm in repelling the assault is justified if

(a) he causes it under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm from the violence with which the assault was originally made or with which the assailant pursues his purposes; and

(b) he believes, on reasonable grounds, that he cannot otherwise preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm.

The thing to stress here is you are not protected by self-defense provisions in situations you create. Moreover, the individual is required to meet with equal force. You can only use deadly force to prevent your own death. In practice, an armed man comes off very in court if he kills an unarmed man.

Interestingly the Zimmerman defense might actually squeeze in under 34-2b. Except that the Zimmerman version of events requires you to believe that a young man with no history of violence out to buy Skittles intended to beat a man to death for stalking him. The "reasonable grounds" wording would sink this pretty quickly in most courts.



Florida Law:

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


The main differences here are the "no duty to retreat," as well the provision for killing someone to prevent a forcible felony. This is a much broader range of situations in which a citizen can legally kill another.

The other subtle difference is between what "he or she reasonable believes," and what the individual "believes, on reasonable grounds." I'm not sure how the case law clarifies the Florida statute exactly, but "reasonable grounds" in Canadian case law is typically "a set of facts or circumstances which would cause a person of ordinary and prudent judgment to believe beyond a mere suspicion." The Zimmerman version of events might meet this standard, but appears exaggerated. My reading of the Florida statute is that it doesn't depend on ordinary or prudent judgment, but allows for more subjectivity.


My preference is for the Canadian law, as I've previously said, but Floridians are entitled to write their own laws and if those laws reflect the wishes of the people of Florida then the system works. I only point out the lower incidences of violent crime and gun deaths in Canada relative to Florida.

[monster_gardener]

Well that would be retarded. To suggest that confronting a criminal would strip me of my right of self defense is idiotic. I'm so glad I live in America.

Please present evidence that Trayvon Martin was a criminal.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Tinker.

AIUI per the radio, he was suspended from his high school because his school bag was searched and found to contain.

1. A burglar's tool

2. Women's Jewelry

3. An empty Marijuana baggie.

Going to look for a link.....................


Found one......... Claims to be an excerpt from the Miami Hearld

One HUGE difference between this site and the Miami Hearld is that the Hearld uses that probably misleading photo from possibly when Trey was MUCH younger while this patdollard site uses what appears to be an updated and IMVHO unflattering photo of Martin.

Seems that the marijuana was a separate incident....

Excerpted from MiamiHerald – SANFORD — Miami Gardens teenager Trayvon Martin was suspended from school in October in an incident in which he was found in possession of women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that a schools security staffer described as a “burglary tool,” The Miami Herald has learned.

Trayvon, who claimed that an unnamed friend had given him the jewelry, was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald.

A lawyer for the dead teen’s family acknowledged Trayvon had been suspended for graffiti, but said the family knew nothing about the jewelry and the screwdriver, calling the information in the report an attempt to “demonize” the youth.

According to the report, on Oct. 21 staffers monitoring a security camera at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School spotted Trayvon and two other students writing “W.T.F.,” an acronym for “What the f—,” on a hallway locker, according to schools police. The security employee, who knew Trayvon, confronted the teen and looked through his bag for the graffiti marker.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described the screwdriver as a burglary tool.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry, which was mostly women’s rings and earrings, belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.

“Martin was suspended, warned and dismissed for the graffiti,” according to the report prepared by Miami-Dade Schools Police.

That suspension was followed four months later by another one, in February, in which Trayvon was caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it, the boy’s family’s attorney has confirmed. A schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”

http://patdollard.com/2012/03/multiple- ... on-martin/

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2 ... ayvon.html

More at: http://patdollard.com/2012/03/was-trayv ... angbanger/

Including info on Trey's Facebook and Twitter Account.........

Hmmmmmmmn

Makes me wonder about some of the handles used here at On the Nature of Things........ Including ESPECIALLY mine.........

There but for the Grace of G_d.......................

It seems that Tray was also on Twitter, but his account seems to have been recently deleted by his family or friends.

His screen name was “@NO_LIMIT_NIGGA, as you can see from the twitpic account screenshot above. He was also a member of a twitter hash group #team4dat.

At first, I was skeptical that anyone would maintain an account with that sort of derogatory slur in the title, but after doing some research, it’s apparent that it was Trayvon’s account.

The account was in existence long before the shooting occurred a few weeks ago, and was deleted only recently, there are still dozens of references to @NO_LIMIT_NIGGA in google’s cache.

The associated twitpic account matches the account name and is still online at the time of publication. Most of the pics were uploaded months ago, so this account was associated with Trayvon long before the shooting took place.

Several of Tray’s friends have been very open about referring to Trayvon using that account as well. His cousin, who is quite active on Twitter, refers to Trayvon more than a dozen times using the @NO_LIMIT_NIGGA nickname.

Violence & Gang Activity

There seem to be several allusions to violence on Tray’s Twitter account.

His friends posted supportive messages using it as well, about how happy they were that Trayvon whooped Zimmerman’s ass before he died.

@NO_LIMIT_NIGGA IMA MISS YU TILL I DIE DOG I KNOW YU WHOOPED HIS ASS DOE.. CUZ I PRAY GOD HELP ME AND WATCH YU LOVE YOU CUZZ REST ETERNALLY.