Romney vs. Obama

[Enki]

Yea, and we get to the heart of the matter, religious extremism. You view politics as inherently sinful and anyone who would want to participate in it socially as some kind of villain.

[cdgt]

Yea, and we get to the heart of the matter, religious extremism.

No, and I figured you couldn't get past your stereotypes to get the analogy. But I figured others would understand the point. Including some of the atheists on this board, btw.

You view politics as inherently sinful and anyone who would want to participate in it socially as some kind of villain.

Wrong and wrong.

[Enki]

I understand what you were getting at. But at the bottom line I reject the notion that you're getting at, that people are hopelessly corrupt, cannot govern themselves, so we should let go and let god. I simply don't agree with it. And you won't let go of your stereotypes long enough to realize that someone disagrees with you.

Especially since two other posters have said precisely the same thing to me in the last couple of hours. cgdt, Marcus and Yukon Cornelius all said the same thing essentially.

[cdgt]

I understand what you were getting at. But at the bottom line I reject the notion that you're getting at, that people are hopelessly corrupt, cannot govern themselves, so we should let go and let god. I simply don't agree with it.

That's not my position. But thanks for guessing badly again.

And you won't let go of your stereotypes long enough to realize that someone disagrees with you.

You can't disagree with what you don't understand. You disagree with a strawman caractature of me, which is either honestly or dishonestly held. You can't move out of your ideological paradigm to consider that I don't fit into one of your neat little boxes.

Especially since two other posters have said precisely the same thing to me in the last couple of hours. cgdt, Marcus and Yukon Cornelius all said the same thing essentially.

"precisely the same thing ... the same thing essentially." You want to pick one of those before I respond?

[Enki]

Well then I guess it was your baseless stereotypes that threw me off. The left doesn't think in terms of 'political perfection'. They believe in 'Progress', that the system can be improved if responsibly governed.

For better or worse when y'all spread the false Spenglerian narrative of 'Utopian thinking' and apply it to any belief in good government, I think you're just getting all religious and thinking that there is any sort of competition with God going on in the minds of the people who are participating.

[cdgt]

Well then I guess it was your baseless stereotypes that threw me off.

My fault, of course.

The left doesn't think in terms of 'political perfection'. They believe in 'Progress', that the system can be improved if responsibly governed.

For better or worse when y'all spread the false Spenglerian narrative of 'Utopian thinking' and apply it to any belief in good government, I think you're just getting all religious and thinking that there is any sort of competition with God going on in the minds of the people who are participating.

No, no, no, no. You completely missed the point, if that's what you think I was saying.

I was saying that the social progressives have no higher aspiration than to replace the present "wealthy and powerful minority" with another "wealthy and powerful minority" that better suits them.

Try it this way:

• Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[AzariLoveIran]

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Poll : US Jewish voters prefer Obama to Romney by 61 percent to 28%


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[Enki]

I was saying that the social progressives have no higher aspiration than to replace the present "wealthy and powerful minority" with another "wealthy and powerful minority" that better suits them.

Not even wrong.

[Ibrahim]

Not even wrong.

This is the running theme lately.

[cdgt]

I was saying that the social progressives have no higher aspiration than to replace the present "wealthy and powerful minority" with another "wealthy and powerful minority" that better suits them.

Not even wrong.

^ This from a guy who serially misunderstands everything I write.

[Mr. Perfect]

Seems to misunderstand reality serially. Did you seem him on the Trayvon Martin thing? He built a great monument to anti-intellectualism.

[Hoosiernorm]

Will American voters accept and then vote for not only a mormon but mormonism? Can Mitt distance his mormon belief?

[Mr. Perfect]

Perhaps you can flesh out your thoughts. How is Mormonism being voted for here?

[Hoosiernorm]

Perhaps you can flesh out your thoughts. How is Mormonism being voted for here?

Can his being a mormon be separated from his identity? If it cannot be separated then can it be overlooked? Are voters going to look at his faith and be able to support his candidacy?

[Typhoon]

Perhaps you can flesh out your thoughts. How is Mormonism being voted for here?

Can his being a mormon be separated from his identity? If it cannot be separated then can it be overlooked? Are voters going to look at his faith and be able to support his candidacy?

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Plus ça change . . .

[Ibrahim]

Will American voters accept and then vote for not only a mormon but mormonism? Can Mitt distance his mormon belief?

I think this might have been an issue in the past, but the sizable Obama victory in 2008 would be the most recent evidence that these identity issues don't bother people anymore. Between race, "birthers," Reverend Wright, and "secret Muslim," there was plenty of grist for the mill, but it didn't hurt his campaign at all. Romney is carrying very little baggage compared to all that.

The only people who might care are extreme Christians, who will also realize that Mormons agree with them on a socially conservative agenda, and anyway it's not like they were going to vote Democrat.


The "flip flopper" accusation is far more damaging to Romney that his religion (a la John Kerry).

[Enki]

I think this might have been an issue in the past, but the sizable Obama victory in 2008 would be the most recent evidence that these identity issues don't bother people anymore. Between race, "birthers," Reverend Wright, and "secret Muslim," there was plenty of grist for the mill, but it didn't hurt his campaign at all. Romney is carrying very little baggage compared to all that.

From what I understand the Mormon religion views black people and homosexuals as subhuman. So it might become an issue.

The only people who might care are extreme Christians, who will also realize that Mormons agree with them on a socially conservative agenda, and anyway it's not like they were going to vote Democrat.

We'll see. It's going to be interesting because criticism from the left on that issue might be muted due to a misguided notion of 'religious tolerance'.

The "flip flopper" accusation is far more damaging to Romney that his religion (a la John Kerry).

Yeah, but Obama is a flip-flopper too.

[Enki]

I think this might have been an issue in the past, but the sizable Obama victory in 2008 would be the most recent evidence that these identity issues don't bother people anymore. Between race, "birthers," Reverend Wright, and "secret Muslim," there was plenty of grist for the mill, but it didn't hurt his campaign at all. Romney is carrying very little baggage compared to all that.

From what I understand the Mormon religion views black people and homosexuals as subhuman. So it might become an issue.

The only people who might care are extreme Christians, who will also realize that Mormons agree with them on a socially conservative agenda, and anyway it's not like they were going to vote Democrat.

We'll see. It's going to be interesting because criticism from the left on that issue might be muted due to a misguided notion of 'religious tolerance'.

The "flip flopper" accusation is far more damaging to Romney that his religion (a la John Kerry).

Yeah, but Obama is a flip-flopper too.

[Mr. Perfect]

From what I understand the Mormon religion views black people and homosexuals as subhuman. So it might become an issue.

I would like to learn more about this, or find out if it is part of your war on truth.

[Mr. Perfect]

The economy it looks like is not going to be there for Obama.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47261886

[Marcus]

I understand what you were getting at . . that people are hopelessly corrupt, cannot govern themselves, so we should let go and let god . . Marcus . . said the same thing essentially.

No, I said no such thing nor do I believe such nonsense.

You are greatly mistaken . . .

Moreover, to essentially accuse Mormonism of viewing blacks and gays as subhuman without documentation is scurrilous.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

It was my understanding that Mormons USED to bar blacks from their priesthood and felt the mark-of-cain was part of their skin coloration, and a whole host of other things that were floating out there in the 19th century.

But it's an awfully cheap move to dredge this up for a presidential election years after Mormons officially abandoned any hint of this stuff.

[Mr. Perfect]

It can't possibly be that, he said subhuman. There must be more to it.

[Milo]

Well, here's some more to it:

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[NapLajoieonSteroids]

It can't possibly be that, he said subhuman. There must be more to it.

Well, I'm sure that was probably true at one point. If you look at apologetics against Mormons, it is an issue often brought up. And if you consider that their higher initiation temple rituals to reach the highest of heavens were barred to blacks for a long time, it's not a stretch to imagine that they were thought of as lesser humans at least soteriologically. I don't even think blacks were allowed to serve as priests until 1980 or so...

From the Mormon's I've known and literature I've come across on the net, Mormons don't exactly seem theologically-inclined, or interested in accounting for this type of stuff. Though this is true of most people, there seems to be a sort of, "oh well, what's important is that we have nice family lives" attitude that outweighs everything including belief. There is an adaptability that's been there since the beginning, which is why bringing up old beliefs seems cheap.

It's like the Ron Paul stuff: was he a racist for the things printed under his name? Who knows, is there any evidence that if elected he'd treated blacks differently than what the current laws dictate? No, none at all. Sometimes racial quirks and prejudices don't have much barring on the job at hand.