Ukraine

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

.

I think western Joe misunderstands Ukraine fiasco

Ukraine to Russia is much more than Canada to US of A.

. . . the usual ethnic nonsense . . .

Not even wrong.

Even if we were to entertain an ethnic angle, Russian propagandists such as Vladimir Solovyov were as little as 15 years ago were saying an invasion of the Ukraine by Russia would be criminal:

https://youtu.be/wTbEEG_GZfU

wTbEEG_GZfU

To quote the Solovyov translation in the video [bolded words mine]:

Let me put it this way-- there will never be any war between Russia and Ukraine because any person who attempts in full seriousness to undertake such an act is a criminal. What's more, I can't even imagine how big a criminal. In Ukraine, there live people who are absolutely fraternal in spirit, blood and common history, a war with whom would be the worst crime you could think of. We don't need to shout, "Sevastopol's ours!" We don't need to shout, "Crimea's ours!" We just need to make life in our country so attractive that Ukrainians, Belarusians, Moldovans, Armenians, Georgians, all of them want to live in peace with us and come to us.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Ethnic angle & national angle are 17c - 20c way of propagandizing warmongering.

Stirring up a desire for war by framing understanding in terms of identity politics and emotional manipulation.

[Heracleum Persicum]

Russia says tank deliveries to Ukraine "direct involvement" by West in conflict

told you

Now, waiting for the other shoe to drop

[noddy]

.

I think western Joe misunderstands Ukraine fiasco

Ukraine to Russia is much more than Canada to US of A.

. . . the usual ethnic nonsense . . .

Not even wrong.

Even if we were to entertain an ethnic angle, Russian propagandists such as Vladimir Solovyov were as little as 15 years ago were saying an invasion of the Ukraine by Russia would be criminal:

https://youtu.be/wTbEEG_GZfU

wTbEEG_GZfU

To quote the Solovyov translation in the video [bolded words mine]:

Let me put it this way-- there will never be any war between Russia and Ukraine because any person who attempts in full seriousness to undertake such an act is a criminal. What's more, I can't even imagine how big a criminal. In Ukraine, there live people who are absolutely fraternal in spirit, blood and common history, a war with whom would be the worst crime you could think of. We don't need to shout, "Sevastopol's ours!" We don't need to shout, "Crimea's ours!" We just need to make life in our country so attractive that Ukrainians, Belarusians, Moldovans, Armenians, Georgians, all of them want to live in peace with us and come to us.

exactly.

one only has to look at the member states of NATO to see the preferences of most slavs in terms of which sphere they want to be in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO

all this nonsense about American interference in elections, of course their was interference in elections, everyone is doing that all the time everywhere.

America interferes in our elections, Russia interferes in as many elections as it possibly can, its the natural state of the world.

the reality is interference tends to only work when their is a solid amount of local support for the message of the interference.

putin knows that inside and out.

[Heracleum Persicum]

one only has to look at the member states of NATO to see the preferences of most slavs in terms of which sphere they want to be in.

This argument is often thrown in when issues not understood.

1.5 Billion Indians and 1,4 Billion Chinese and Indonesians and Philipino and all those millions Syrian and Afghan and Libyan and African refugee in Germany and Europe were free to leave to Europe last 50 yrs , but they didnt .. they were poor but very happy at home

When McCain and Graham armed terrorists in Syria, those who started beheading westerners , when Obama and NATO bombed Libya without any reason (reason only being Europe now taking Libyan oil neither metered nor paid for) , that is when those millions were escaping and walking to Germany.

It ain't so that Germany is a paradise for those refugees, they there only because West is bombing them at home.

The insecurity in those countries are generated by West, otherwise Syrians were living together in peace for 1000s of yrs .. same in Iraq and Afghanistan etc etc.

Only place where West could not touch is our beloved Iran .. thanks to mad mullahs

mad mullahs speak the same language that West speaks .. Poor Qaddafi

That SOB being able to fool mad mullahs not yet born

[noddy]

you do understand that eastern europe.. is in europe ?

they dont need to go nowhere, its just a matter of which politics and markets they are attached to.

they chose NATO, you and Putin dont like that choice.

so what ?

[Heracleum Persicum]

you do understand that eastern europe.. is in europe ?

they dont need to go nowhere, its just a matter of which politics and markets they are attached to.

they chose NATO, you and Putin dont like that choice.

so what ?

Dont understand what you getting at

Seems you mean when shooting began in Ukraine, Ukraine refugee went West, to eastern and western Europe .. and .. not toward east , to Russia.

Reason for that is Western Europe (including eastern Europe) PAID (and paying) the bills .. media full of reports saying that.

Many reports in media that they were not as welcomed as reported and "many went back despite being bombed at home" .. they rather be teacher at home than dishwasher in Poland. (a mother of 2 kids said returning from Poland)

and

Many many went to Russia as they had relatives in Russia and were welcomed as "equals". You dont read RT and Russian (english) media

https://tass.com/

https://www.rt.com/

https://sputniknews.com/

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/

Good to read both side

[noddy]

Literally the stated reason for this war is too many slav countries joined NATO and want to be in the EU.

'Expansion'

Which is what Napster posted about.

[Heracleum Persicum]

Literally the stated reason for this war is too many slav countries joined NATO and want to be in the EU.

'Expansion'

Which is what Napster posted about.

What West, US, Europe did and doing, is , going to POOR, eastern European countries, promising them prosperity in case they gang against that bad bad evil Russia

West did this with Romania, Bulgaria (they sold themselves to CIA), same was done by Scandinavians to naive Baltic States.

NATO fooled them into believing they would have "security".

Now all this "unraveling"

Now, Attila knocking on NATO door.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

What West, US, Europe did and doing, is , going to POOR, eastern European countries, promising them prosperity in case they gang against that bad bad evil Russia

West did this with Romania, Bulgaria (they sold themselves to CIA), same was done by Scandinavians to naive Baltic States.

NATO fooled them into believing they would have "security".

Now all this "unraveling"

Now, Attila knocking on NATO door.

That'll show them, wanting security (from Russia) only to have Russia attack.

This is the "I don't hit my wife, but she did ask for it" defense.

[Heracleum Persicum]

What West, US, Europe did and doing, is , going to POOR, eastern European countries, promising them prosperity in case they gang against that bad bad evil Russia

West did this with Romania, Bulgaria (they sold themselves to CIA), same was done by Scandinavians to naive Baltic States.

NATO fooled them into believing they would have "security".

Now all this "unraveling"

Now, Attila knocking on NATO door.

That'll show them, wanting security (from Russia) only to have Russia attack.

This is the "I don't hit my wife, but she did ask for it" defense.

If Ukraine was not next door to Russia, if it was in Africa, Ukraine would be "worthless" for the West.

What makes Ukraine a 'trophy" is it's "next to Russia"

Ukrainian people "democratically" elected Viktor Yanukovych because he did not want to take advantage of "monetizing" Ukraine's 'trophy" location "next to Russia".

West overthrow "democratically" elected Viktor Yanukovych and brought in a faction that "naively" thinks Ukraine's 'trophy" location "next to Russia" can be sold to West, NATO

All small nations living next to powerful big nations, their "vital national interest" is to take in consideration the big neighbour's "vital national interest" .. meaning Ukraine "must", PRIMARILY, cater to Russian "vital national interest"... that is Valid for Mexico, for Canada and many others.

Zelenskyy, naively, thinking can "monetize" Ukraine geography by selling Ukraine national interest to West, NATO.

Zelenskyy, foolishly, does not understand that this big geopolitical game, and, at the end, when dust settles, West/NATO/Europe will settle with Russia but in the meantime Ukraine is thrown to the dogs.

Zelenskyy should look what happened last 70 yrs to all those who relied on US .. they all fell under the Bus

Unfortunately (for Ukrainians .. they innocent in all this)

[noddy]

Literally the stated reason for this war is too many slav countries joined NATO and want to be in the EU.

'Expansion'

Which is what Napster posted about.

What West, US, Europe did and doing, is , going to POOR, eastern European countries, promising them prosperity in case they gang against that bad bad evil Russia

West did this with Romania, Bulgaria (they sold themselves to CIA), same was done by Scandinavians to naive Baltic States.

NATO fooled them into believing they would have "security".

Now all this "unraveling"

Now, Attila knocking on NATO door.

your whole argument about NATO is incomprehensible - first you argue NATO is helping them, now you argue NATO is not helping them.

[noddy]

All small nations living next to powerful big nations, their "vital national interest" is to take in consideration the big neighbour's "vital national interest" .. meaning Ukraine "must", PRIMARILY, cater to Russian "vital national interest".[/color].. that is Valid for Mexico, for Canada and many others.

if you look to Ukraines left, you see the EU, which has 3 times the population and 10 times the economy of Russia, including all the other slavic countries except Belarus.

compare Belarus to Poland, who lives better.

Russia is not a big boy nation, it used to be , before the soviet empire collapsed, now its barely as relevant as post empire Britain.

can start regional wars with Ukraine (like Britain and Argentenia) but would never dare take on a big boy like NATO.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

What makes Ukraine a 'trophy" is it's "next to Russia"

NATO isn't the one who sent in paratroopers and shot off missiles to go big trophy hunting. The warhawk faction of NATO had no "in" until Russia opened the way. Several times by this point-- everyone looked the other way with Crimea which shows just how enthusiastic they were to fight over the Ukraine.

Ukrainian people "democratically" elected Viktor Yanukovych because he did not want to take advantage of "monetizing" Ukraine's 'trophy" location "next to Russia".

West overthrow "democratically" elected Viktor Yanukovych and brought in a faction that "naively" thinks Ukraine's 'trophy" location "next to Russia" can be sold to West, NATO

The man was censored by his own party and replaced by a constitutionally designated official. The national legislature of the time was elected 2 years previous to that president and was satisfied with the results. No one as far as I'm aware in local elections formed a coalition to fight what happened to Yanukovych. All of these people were paid off in a slow-rolling, years-long coup just to get Viktor Yanukovych specifically?

And that includes the waning support over the last decade for pro-Russian parties, who've been losing any constituency they did have; and the majority of that came from the Crimea, the Donetsk oblast, and the Lukhansk oblast, with only the Crimea having any indication of pro-Russia being a majority sentiment. And even then, every region, including the Crimea, voted in favor of the declaration of sovereignty in the 1991 referendum.

Just a 40 year coup against one Viktor long in the making.

------------------

The flip side of this coin is that the current policy of the Russian president is that the country is captured by gay demon neo-nazis because merging back into Russia was polling in the single digits.

Zelenskyy, naively, thinking can "monetize" Ukraine geography by selling Ukraine national interest to West, NATO.

Zelenskyy, foolishly, does not understand that this big geopolitical game, and, at the end, when dust settles, West/NATO/Europe will settle with Russia but in the meantime Ukraine is thrown to the dogs.

Zelenskyy should look what happened last 70 yrs to all those who relied on US .. they all fell under the Bus

Unfortunately (for Ukrainians .. they innocent in all this)

Zelensky? The guy who danced on Russian television and was characterized as Russian-friendly before, you know, he started having his cities shelled?

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

If Ukraine was not next door to Russia, if it was in Africa, Ukraine would be "worthless" for the West.

A meaningless counterfactual. But in raising the question of value-- of what value is Ukraine to Russia? There is no substantial problem in either Ukraine or Russia that a merger of the two solves. And the invasion from almost a year ago has burned any possible good will that they have circumscribed goals.

The one obvious conjecture is left: conquest for eventual border expansion along the lines of the old Warsaw Pact, sans East Germany.

No one in the West is supposed to recognize this?

This is how stupid the invasion has been all along. The whole thing hinged on a divided NATO rolling over yet again-- this hasn't materialized. So Russia is left in a position where there is no exit from stupidity and any victory will be worse-- decades of guerilla warfare, terrorism, very pissed off neighbors...and basically handing the keys of NATO over to people who want her destruction.

[Heracleum Persicum]

If Ukraine was not next door to Russia, if it was in Africa, Ukraine would be "worthless" for the West.

.. of what value is Ukraine to Russia ?

Ukraine , Baltics , and , East Europe .. their value to Russia is they "Buffer Zone" between mother Russia and those "beasts" who overrun Russia TWICE and killed millions of Russians, last time not even 80 yrs ago they killed 28 m Russians.

Russia is vast and does not need Latvian or Estonian or Romanian or Bulgarian or Ukrainian land .. but .. these lands "must be" NEUTRAL lands between the Russians and the bad guys like Bonaparte and aDolf.

That was the deal between Bush (Baker) and Gorbachev .. based on that, USSR handed back East Europe

Deal was NATO stays where it is 1990

And

Putin wrote a letter to Biden, Europe proposing a "comprehensive security arrangement" with West

West said NO.

Well, you no more dealing with fools

--

West still thinkin this "the old good days" that west was riding on horse and all others were on foot

Now, everybody is on foot, including the West

--

Same mindset rules with Western confront with mad mullahs

mad mullahs saying since 40 yrs , " talk with Iran with RESPECT " .. they mean, West gets off the horse and we talk as EQUALS .. West can not swallow that, thinkin "who the f*ck are you"

West not comprehending things have changed in the world .. all facts are at the fingertip for 6 Billion non Westerns (information technology cuts both way), and, military power is neutralized, with little BIG damage can be done .. AND .. being Nuke Power not anymore what it meant, now many nations are "nuclear" threshold powers, including mad mullahs

West hindering Iran getting advanced jet fighters lead to Iran developing "pinPoint" ballistic missiles that are steerable to the last second before impact flying ZigZak (no defence against it), pretty much intercontinental .. making owning jet fighters obsolete .. $ 7000 worth drones flying on lawnmower engines with 30 hrs endurance making fun of Million Dollar countermeasure.

World has changed .. That is what Putin is all about

mad mullahs pretty much won the confront with West .. that was their job, to make West understand the "old good days" no more.

[Heracleum Persicum]

https://www.rt.com/news/570547-trump-uk ... ams-tanks/

“FIRST COME THE TANKS, THEN COME THE NUKES. Get this crazy war ended, NOW. So easy to do,” Trump wrote on his social media platform Truth Social on Thursday. The 45th president has argued in the past that the conflict between Russia and Ukraine would not have happened had he still been in office.

Republican Congressman Troy Nehls suggested in a Fox News interview on Thursday that President Joe Biden should call Trump and that Trump could later call Russian President Vladimir Putin. “We must stop this war, and Donald Trump can do it,” Nehls said.

The Abrams tank “requires an enormous amount of logistical support,” Nehls explained, adding that, instead of additional military aid to Kiev, the US should focus on other crises in the world and on issues at home. “We’re depleting our munitions. It’s going to take years for the industry to catch up.”

[noddy]

Pepe escobar from atimes has the Azari positiion

https://mobile.twitter.com/RealPepeEscobar

To me , its not even wrong as some might say.

All of these processes are underway, have been for decades.

So while i can understand the schaudenfraude of much of the world watching europe get bombed, this doesnt explain why NATO have to sit back and let Russia do whatever it wants.

Wishful thinking isnt reality, NATO still has order of magnitude more resources

The other problem with it, is its overblown exageration - the world never really was under western control, the sanctions, the markets, all were easily bypassed and always will be.

Iran can buy anything it wasnts on the grey market, all it required was a middle man , and this has always been the case.

so yeh, the world doesnt care what the west thinks - but lets not get too excited about how much it cares about what China thinks, or Russia thinks either.

the world will continue to be a chaotic mix of all sorts, with their own agendas, and the west will continue to be the one of the strongest agendas around.

for all this talk about Russias vast financial reserves and ability to sell oil and gas to other countries, its now a year later, and they are burning through their savings and unable to push the price of energy back up to where it was

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... ficit.html

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from ... SD&view=5Y

rememeber, India and China doesnt care who wins, it doesnt matter to them - they win either way.

only some angry anti establishmentarians in the middle east, Africa and South America are all in with Putin.

and thats just letting off steam

[Heracleum Persicum]

Pepe Escobar is "Lefti" and anti establishment

Azari is conservative right leaning, West leaning, Persian Patriot

-

Why did WW-2 happen (same as WW-1) ? ?

Reason was, Brits were controlling the world (natural resources) and Pound was world currency

Brits were the arbiter who gets what and at what price (more and less)

Germans (and Japan) said NO (meaning we don't accept this)

The rest we know

After the war, Americans made Brits to (more or less .. on the paper only) give up the colonies .. and .. promised Germans and Japan "plain playing field", natural resources @ market price, and open markets.


Bit by Bit, again, things reverted to same situation as pre WW-2 built up

This time not the Brits .. but the US said I'm the "arbiter" who gets what and what price (good sample is extra territorial laws and sanctions) .. and .. those ex-colonies were thrown to the dogs (communism the evil).

Now we in same situation as pre WW-2

In WW-2 main loser was British empire .. main winner of WW-2 was the 3rd world , India and Iran etc etc, shackles were coming off. Vietnam was the start, next came Khomeini , and now Russia and China and mad mullahs

World does not accept (anymore) any "arbiter" .. that is what Multi Polar world means

[noddy]

sure, none of that has anything to do with Russia dropping bombs on Ukraine tho.

lets be real - their is not one single part of Europe that wanted to attack Russia - Germany and England, the 2 biggest powers both wanted integrated Russia into their systems, Germany made itself dependant on Russian gas, London was a playground for Russian elite.

anyone that says blah blah buffer zone against NATO is not being real, their is ZERO interest in attacking Russia, Europe can barely be interested in maintaining its armies - after decades of discussion it still doesnt have a EU army, despite France screaming for it.

NOW they are talking about seriously, and the neutral parts of europe want to join NATO - Putin made it happen, not America.

what is real, is slowly and surely, despite western european racism, eastern europe has been turning into europe proper - all the eastern countries that have joined the EU have growing economies and better lives, Russia is no longer the centre of the slavic world , Poland and Ukraine would have been.

Russia knows damn well it is becoming a nobody, a gas station and its demographics are doomed if it waits.

so it attacks people that want to leave its downward spiral, a last attempt to be relevant.

doesnt matter if Russia wins the eastern strip of Ukraine, eventually , one day.

they will have burnt all their savings, burnt all their connections to the west and now become a petrol station for China.

this is the only outcome possible, this is garunteed no matter what happens, no matter who wins.

so yeh they get to sell oil and wheat to asia and africa in russian dollars, they could have done that anyway.

I say once again, China doesnt care either way now, nor does India, they did not need daddy Putin to attack Europe to make their plans happen, those plans where happening already.

all Putin has done is pushed Russia into a corner with no flexability left - all the successful countries will not make such a rookie mistake.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

If Ukraine was not next door to Russia, if it was in Africa, Ukraine would be "worthless" for the West.

.. of what value is Ukraine to Russia ?

Ukraine , Baltics , and , East Europe .. their value to Russia is they "Buffer Zone" between mother Russia and those "beasts" who overrun Russia TWICE and killed millions of Russians, last time not even 80 yrs ago they killed 28 m Russians.

Russia is vast and does not need Latvian or Estonian or Romanian or Bulgarian or Ukrainian land .. but .. these lands "must be" NEUTRAL lands between the Russians and the bad guys like Bonaparte and aDolf.

Last I checked, Bonaparte and Adolph were six feet under and no threat to Russia or anyone on this side of life. Moreover, that so called buffer- territory is filled with people who've chosen for the last 30 years to distance themselves from the Russians.

Additionally, having any of them occupied by Russians in a military capacity doesn't make them neutral or buffering. It brings Russia into NATO territory and opens up years of guerilla warfare and conflict. What sort of buffer is that?

If all this buffer talk were serious, they have plenty of room to move the important stuff to within the interior of their own country, in event of an emergency.

None of this is serious, this is just an outdated way to justify Russia's bullying and threatening of its neighbors. What does a buffer even mean with today's technology? Congratulations, everyone can not only spy on everyone else in real time but can also hit them with a million missiles within minutes whether the border is 100 miles or 200 miles away.

The only context of buffer here is trying to force the other slavs to be human meat shields against western european missiles if & when Russia stupidly attacks the much bigger and better equipped&trained NATO.

[Heracleum Persicum]

If Ukraine was not next door to Russia, if it was in Africa, Ukraine would be "worthless" for the West.

.. of what value is Ukraine to Russia ?

Ukraine , Baltics , and , East Europe .. their value to Russia is they "Buffer Zone" between mother Russia and those "beasts" who overrun Russia TWICE and killed millions of Russians, last time not even 80 yrs ago they killed 28 m Russians.

Russia is vast and does not need Latvian or Estonian or Romanian or Bulgarian or Ukrainian land .. but .. these lands "must be" NEUTRAL lands between the Russians and the bad guys like Bonaparte and aDolf.

Last I checked, Bonaparte and Adolph were six feet under and no threat to Russia or anyone on this side of life. Moreover, that so called buffer- territory is filled with people who've chosen for the last 30 years to distance themselves from the Russians.

Additionally, having any of them occupied by Russians in a military capacity doesn't make them neutral or buffering. It brings Russia into NATO territory and opens up years of guerilla warfare and conflict. What sort of buffer is that?

If all this buffer talk were serious, they have plenty of room to move the important stuff to within the interior of their own country, in event of an emergency.

None of this is serious, this is just an outdated way to justify Russia's bullying and threatening of its neighbors. What does a buffer even mean with today's technology? Congratulations, everyone can not only spy on everyone else in real time but can also hit them with a million missiles within minutes whether the border is 100 miles or 200 miles away.

The only context of buffer here is trying to force the other slavs to be human meat shields against western european missiles if & when Russia stupidly attacks the much bigger and better equipped&trained NATO.

come on, this serious geopolitics, not foolin kids


Qaddafi was "LoviDovi" with Silvio Berlusconi, with Sarkozy, even with Obama .. they fooled the poor Qaddafi thinking they friends .. Qaddafi disarmed

BANG


Look, this will not be done unless Russian security is established .. that security can not be established with NATO nukes on Russian borders

What does it mean ?

it means this not about Ukraine ONLY .. Baltics and Eastern Europe .. add to this Caucasus etc etc .. long story short, West, NATO must retreat to where it was 1990.

So

Don't hold your breath

Things will get worst, much worst before getting better

And

Many crazy unintended consequences can happen

[noddy]

fever dreams.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

come on, this serious geopolitics, not foolin kids

When are you going to get serious about it? "Punch Anglo-man in the nose" is the extent of your geopolitics. Anything that punches him in the nose, throws dirt in his eyes, pulls his hair gets an apology from HP.

Qaddafi was "LoviDovi" with Silvio Berlusconi, with Sarkozy, even with Obama .. they fooled the poor Qaddafi thinking they friends .. Qaddafi disarmed

BANG

non-sequitur. No one is talking Qaddafi.

Look, this will not be done unless Russian security is established .. that security can not be established with NATO nukes on Russian borders

What does it mean ?

This is a real howler. It means that Russia shouldn't bully and threaten its neighbors and attempt to move their border closer to the bigger kid in the neighborhood that can do real damage to them.

Things will get worst, much worst before getting better

And

Many crazy unintended consequences can happen

Yes, war is generally like that. Full of a stupid waste of lives and resources.

No one is forgetting that Russia invaded their neighbor in a most confounding land grab and are now stuck in a lose-lose situation.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

To understand what really is going on and is at stake , one must read the letter Putin send to West demanding an "comprehensive security arrangement"


NYT
Russia Lays Out Demands for a Sweeping New Security Deal With NATO


it's not about Ukraine (only)

Central Asia too included

and now

Add to this Iran and China have their own demand

so

Don't hold your breath

One of "unintended consequences" could be Europe disengages from US