An Integrated Muslim

[Torchwood]

Mohammed (Mo) Farah is the main GB sporting hero of these games after a double gold at the 5000 and 10,000m. If East Africans win all these events, well we got ourselves an East African...

In the press conference after his 10,000m win, he was asked whether any tiny part of him would like to have been representing Somalia, the country he left at the age of eight to join his father in London, speaking not a word of English, and where his mother and brother still live.

The athlete was indignant. "Look, mate, this is my country. This is where I grew up, this is where I started my life ... And when I put on my Great Britain vest I'm proud." He says that the most profound influence on his life was his school sports master, who spotted his talent.

He says he is a devout Muslim. I note than when interviewed his wife Tania was not wearing any funny headgear. Somalis have a reputation here of the being the most clannish and difficult to integrate of recent immigrants (curse our liberal asylum laws...)

[Endovelico]

I couldn't help thinking of another integrated Muslim:



Zeinal Abedin Mohamed Bava is a Sunni Muslim, a Portuguese citizen born in Mozambique, whose family came from India. He graduated as an electronics engineer at University College London. He is a devout Muslim but is married to a Portuguese catholic woman with whom he has three children. Although he studied in the UK and has there some family, he preferred to come back to Portugal because of the more tolerant environment. He is presently CEO of one of the largest Portuguese firms, Portugal Telecom, and one of the most successful businessmen in Portugal.

[Ibrahim]

This all seems like redundant tokenism to me.

[Endovelico]

This all seems like redundant tokenism to me.

That might be the case if you could artificially create such a situation so that you could use it for propaganda purposes. But how would you manage to that with such a high profile figure as Zeinal Bava?

[Ibrahim]

This all seems like redundant tokenism to me.

That might be the case if you could artificially create such a situation so that you could use it for propaganda purposes. But how would you manage to that with such a high profile figure as Zeinal Bava?

You mistake my meaning, which is reasonable considering how brief my comments were.


My point is that pointing out high-profile Muslims in Western countries and saying "hey look at this guy, he's not trying to blow anything up and his wife doesn't wear a bedsheet outside the house" seems a little redundant to me. Shouldn't most sane people be able to comprehend that there are "regular folks" who are Muslims? It pointing them out individually really necessary? It's like old news copy about Jack Johnson.

[Mr. Perfect]

Isn't it also racist?

[jj_appelbaum]

Isn't it also racist?

Seems a bit paternal, but I think Torchwood is British, so he may be allowed some scope in his phrasing.

[Endovelico]

This all seems like redundant tokenism to me.

That might be the case if you could artificially create such a situation so that you could use it for propaganda purposes. But how would you manage to that with such a high profile figure as Zeinal Bava?

You mistake my meaning, which is reasonable considering how brief my comments were.


My point is that pointing out high-profile Muslims in Western countries and saying "hey look at this guy, he's not trying to blow anything up and his wife doesn't wear a bedsheet outside the house" seems a little redundant to me. Shouldn't most sane people be able to comprehend that there are "regular folks" who are Muslims? It pointing them out individually really necessary? It's like old news copy about Jack Johnson.

You are right when you say that it should be normal for Muslims to be integrated in their community, and that it shouldn't be pointed out as something exceptional. But the point is: if there are well integrated Muslims who are very successful and accepted by non-Muslims, why is it that so many are not? You may say that a Muslim is only well accepted if he doesn't "act" like a Muslim, or when he doesn't "look" like a Muslim. In other words, when he "disguises" the fact that he is a Muslim. But the truth is that it is desirable for people not to have any obvious signs of belonging to any particular religion. A religion is a personal choice and shouldn't be flaunted. A Muslim who sticks to particular forms of dressing, or an orthodox Jew who does the same, are annoying to many people and make it very difficult to treat them like common folk. If, by your clothes or form and shape of beard or hair you keep shouting, "Look, I'm a Muslim!!!", or "Look, I am a chosen one!!!" you risk being treated also in an exceptional manner. For the sake of integration people should conform to their societies' norms of dress and behaviour. And then believe in whatever things they believe, in a private manner.

Does a person who looks like this



be more truly Jewish than one who dresses like anyone else in the US or Europe?

Does a person who dresses like this



be more truly Muslim?

Probably people who do not integrate are people who do not want to integrate, and then they should stay with their original communities and not emigrate to the West.

[Ibrahim]

This all seems like redundant tokenism to me.

That might be the case if you could artificially create such a situation so that you could use it for propaganda purposes. But how would you manage to that with such a high profile figure as Zeinal Bava?

You mistake my meaning, which is reasonable considering how brief my comments were.


My point is that pointing out high-profile Muslims in Western countries and saying "hey look at this guy, he's not trying to blow anything up and his wife doesn't wear a bedsheet outside the house" seems a little redundant to me. Shouldn't most sane people be able to comprehend that there are "regular folks" who are Muslims? It pointing them out individually really necessary? It's like old news copy about Jack Johnson.

You are right when you say that it should be normal for Muslims to be integrated in their community, and that it shouldn't be pointed out as something exceptional. But the point is: if there are well integrated Muslims who are very successful and accepted by non-Muslims, why is it that so many are not?

I don't think I understand your question. Some minority groups adopt the mainstream habits of those groups more than others. I wouldn't assume there is any kind of profound significance to it. Indeed, the basis of this distinction would have to be the most superficial of details, such as clothing.

You may say that a Muslim is only well accepted if he doesn't "act" like a Muslim, or when he doesn't "look" like a Muslim.

I didn't say that, though perhaps some people have.

In other words, when he "disguises" the fact that he is a Muslim.

Again, not clear what this would really mean. It would require some built in assumption about stereotypical look/behavior of "Muslims" that doesn't necessarily correspond to any real definition.

But the truth is that it is desirable for people not to have any obvious signs of belonging to any particular religion.

Depends on the context. In a given place it may be very desirable to appear to belong to a given religion. E.g. in Saudi Arabia it is in your interest to appear to be a Wahhabi Sunni Muslim. In Utah it doesn't hurt to belong to the LDS church. Probably shouldn't join the Spanish Legion unless you're a devout Catholic. Etc.

A religion is a personal choice and shouldn't be flaunted. A Muslim who sticks to particular forms of dressing, or an orthodox Jew who does the same, are annoying to many people and make it very difficult to treat them like common folk.

While I would agree that some people hold these views, it would be irrational discrimination by definition. I don't agree that concealing your identity is the best way to cope with discrimination in the long run.

If, by your clothes or form and shape of beard or hair you keep shouting, "Look, I'm a Muslim!!!", or "Look, I am a chosen one!!!" you risk being treated also in an exceptional manner. For the sake of integration people should conform to their societies' norms of dress and behaviour. And then believe in whatever things they believe, in a private manner.

While this view appeals to certain groups, there is nothing morally correct about it. Essentially you are saying "if you don't make yourself noticeable to racists, racists won't hassle you." Again, it's technically true but seems to miss the point.



I would also say that we are straying from the original point. Which was: To point out a Muslim citizen in a Western nation that is "loyal" to that nation, and doesn't display any outward signifiers of any religion, is condescending and redundant at best. Your argument - that half the Muslims in e.g. England who don't appear to blend in should do so more readily - is another subject entirely.

[Parodite]

We're not totally there yet...

[Typhoon]

Isn't it also racist?

Seems a bit paternal, but I think Torchwood is British, so he may be allowed some scope in his phrasing.

Don't see how T's observations could be construed as racist, noting that at issue are nation and religion rather than the ill-defined concept of race.

Anyways, the garb of both the Orthodox Jew and the fundamentalist Muslims are archaic cultural conventions rather than textual religious prescriptions.

The ancient Jews did not go around the ME sporting oversized fur hats and heavy winter overcoats. Such fashion only makes sense in a shtetl in pre-20th century E Europe and Russia.

Also, as far as I know, the Koran only advises women to "dress modestly" not play peek-a-boo in public.

When in the village, do as the village.

~ Japanese proverb

[noddy]

yeh, they should wear standard western clothing and fit right in.

[Hans Bulvai]

Burqa's, shadours, etc... are not Islamic. They are cultural.
Only the Prophet's wives were required to conceal their faces.
The rest, as the good colonel pointed out, should be modest in their dress.

Assless chaps are a given no no! Then again, I have only seen them on Bourbon street.

[Ibrahim]

When in the village, do as the village.

~ Japanese proverb

What if the village is Hong Kong or New York? Or a major university?

Patrick Kavanaugh and Ko Un wrote some nice poetry about village life, but we all know the action isn't in Mayberry. It's in the places that are most "multicultural" and nobody is phased by different hues and hats.

[Endovelico]

Burqa's, shadours, etc... are not Islamic. They are cultural.

Indeed. And therefore one should tell those people who seem not to be able to sacrifice certain cultural traits, as clothing, that they shouldn't emigrate to countries which do not share those traits with them. And if they do emigrate, then they should not complain about being discriminated against. If western women are smart enough not to walk in a miniskirt in the streets of Saudi Arabia, why can't middle-eastern women be smart enough not to dress in a burqa in Paris?... If one knows one is giving offense to one's hosts, why insist? Would someone in punk's attire be allowed in a gala dinner for the Queen? Would a Chelsea football fan, dressed accordingly, be allowed to seat among Arsenal supporters?...

[Sparky]

I doubt it, but you can appear at a parliamentary committee dressed like this:

So I guess it's ok to go to the supermarket draped in a black bed sheet.

If you believe in living in a free society with all that goes with it, there's really not much you can do about it seeming being foolish or highly illiberal.

[Typhoon]

yeh, they should wear standard western clothing and fit right in.

This species of penguin is currently in great danger of extinction.

All are on fringe of society - marginalized.

Entertainer: so this drag queen receives a pass.

[Typhoon]

When in the village, do as the village.

~ Japanese proverb

What if the village is Hong Kong or New York? Or a major university?

Patrick Kavanaugh and Ko Un wrote some nice poetry about village life, but we all know the action isn't in Mayberry. It's in the places that are most "multicultural" and nobody is phased by different hues and hats.

Burqa's, shadours, etc... are not Islamic. They are cultural.

Indeed. And therefore one should tell those people who seem not to be able to sacrifice certain cultural traits, as clothing, that they shouldn't emigrate to countries which do not share those traits with them. And if they do emigrate, then they should not complain about being discriminated against. If western women are smart enough not to walk in a miniskirt in the streets of Saudi Arabia, why can't middle-eastern women be smart enough not to dress in a burqa in Paris?... If one knows one is giving offense to one's hosts, why insist? . . .

Well, there is an asymmetry. France is an enlightened relatively tolerant industrially advanced state whereas S Arabia is a backwards feudal intolerant corrupt theocracy so I don't see why one would want to emulate the latter.

The problem is that facial identification and expressions are a fundamental part of social interaction.

If someone wants to go around in the equivalent of a kid's Halloween ghost costume playing peek-a-boo, then that's their business not mine as it "neither picks my pocket or breaks my leg".

However, I draw the line on two points:

1/ Equal treatment before the law of the land; and

2/ Attempting to impose one's beliefs on others.

Offhand:

For [1] I can think of refusing to removing a facial covering for a photo ID or female circumcision. The laws of the land should apply to everyone with no exceptions on [foreign] religious - cultural grounds.

For [2] a women wearing a mini-skirt being harassed for her manner of dress by religious - cultural fanatics in, say, Tokyo, New York, or Paris.

Summarized by

When in the village, do as the village.

[Ibrahim]

However, I draw the line on two points:

1/ Equal treatment before the law of the land; and

2/ Attempting to impose one's beliefs on others.

Offhand:

For [1] I can think of refusing to removing a facial covering for a photo ID or female circumcision. The laws of the land should apply to everyone with no exceptions on [foreign] religious - cultural grounds.

For [2] a women wearing a mini-skirt being harassed for her manner of dress by religious - cultural fanatics in, say, Tokyo, New York, or Paris.

Summarized by

When in the village, do as the village.

I think this saying has to mean a little more than obeying the law. Certainly that's what Endo has talked about on occasion, and what Torchwood was drawing attention to with the initial post, and furthermore what I take your proverb to mean. That is, that you should attempt to blend in, and that this is better for everybody. I'm taking obeying the law as a given.

My contrary observation is that the places where everybody doesn't blend in are the most culturally, intellectually, and commercially vibrant.

[Typhoon]

However, I draw the line on two points:

1/ Equal treatment before the law of the land; and

2/ Attempting to impose one's beliefs on others.

Offhand:

For [1] I can think of refusing to removing a facial covering for a photo ID or female circumcision. The laws of the land should apply to everyone with no exceptions on [foreign] religious - cultural grounds.

For [2] a women wearing a mini-skirt being harassed for her manner of dress by religious - cultural fanatics in, say, Tokyo, New York, or Paris.

Summarized by

When in the village, do as the village.

I think this saying has to mean a little more than obeying the law. Certainly that's what Endo has talked about on occasion, and what Torchwood was drawing attention to with the initial post, and furthermore what I take your proverb to mean. That is, that you should attempt to blend in, and that this is better for everybody. I'm taking obeying the law as a given.

My contrary observation is that the places where everybody doesn't blend in are the most culturally, intellectually, and commercially vibrant.

1/ No.

2/ Evidence?

In my experience, the Canadian city of Toronto strikes me as the most multicultural metropolis on earth. I recall riding the metro and thinking "it looks like every person is from a different part of the planet".
Yet most people dressed more or less the same.

The religious - cultural fringes are not know for their cultural, intellectual, and/or commercial contributions. The one unrelated fringe group known for such are the gays.

It's a question of degree.

[Endovelico]

My contrary observation is that the places where everybody doesn't blend in are the most culturally, intellectually, and commercially vibrant.

Blending in doesn't mean giving up one's culture entirely. Only those aspects which may lead to conflict. A Japanese musician living in Paris doesn't have to start composing like Mozart, Prokofiev or Schönberg in order to blend. He may blend and continue to compose Japanese music. In that way he may be adding something to the host country's culture without generating any conflict. Blending in and adding to local cultural diversity are not mutually exclusive.

[Ibrahim]

My contrary observation is that the places where everybody doesn't blend in are the most culturally, intellectually, and commercially vibrant.

Blending in doesn't mean giving up one's culture entirely. Only those aspects which may lead to conflict. A Japanese musician living in Paris doesn't have to start composing like Mozart, Prokofiev or Schönberg in order to blend. He may blend and continue to compose Japanese music. In that way he may be adding something to the host country's culture without generating any conflict. Blending in and adding to local cultural diversity are not mutually exclusive.

So just hats then?

[noddy]

All are on fringe of society - marginalized.

i would have agreed in the 70's, less so by the 90's and now its only in the very white bread conservative areas, which themselves are feeling very marginalised... completely wrong for the modern cities and many of the burbs, especially the highly multiculti ones like melbourne.

Entertainer: so this drag queen receives a pass.

i had only a few moments to do a few google searches and realised i should have put more effort in to find other sub cultures and better pictures of the ones i did find - this drag queen is just copying a certain demographic and it would have been better if i found the source ;P


nutshell argument - the only aspect of "religious clothing" from the middle eastern lands which to my mind is not acceptable to western sensibilities is the extreme face covering and its wrong on many levels, legal and cultural.

the only existing cultural reference point for covering the face in general society is bandits and their modern equivilant of biker gangs and as such most western states have laws against it and even if they dont , thats the reaction you are going to get out the locals if you do cover your face, so either way you are going to be in the sh*t.

in the mixed asian/western environment i grew up in its frowned upon to leave your sunglasses on if your talking to someone, a fully exposed face with all communication channels open is a sign of respect and trust so you are treating the other with contempt by covering these.

[Endovelico]

My contrary observation is that the places where everybody doesn't blend in are the most culturally, intellectually, and commercially vibrant.

Blending in doesn't mean giving up one's culture entirely. Only those aspects which may lead to conflict. A Japanese musician living in Paris doesn't have to start composing like Mozart, Prokofiev or Schönberg in order to blend. He may blend and continue to compose Japanese music. In that way he may be adding something to the host country's culture without generating any conflict. Blending in and adding to local cultural diversity are not mutually exclusive.

So just hats then?

It's not just hats, but insisting on not adopting the local dress code is a sure sign of unwillingness to blend. It's a statement not simply of difference but also of assumed superiority. "I am different, I want you to know I am different, I will never want to be like you, and I am telling you that my way is better than yours!" A punk does that too, but we don't mind because we know he will grow out of it. An orthodox jew or a burqa wearing muslim woman will not grow out of it and thus threaten the social cohesion.

[Sparky]

I can't see how being deeply illiberal to a minority within a minority can do much to promote social cohesion. It may well have the opposite effect.