Syria

[Ibrahim]

Does that make you feel better about yourself? No lunch for you, much more devout than those chumps getting shelled by Assad, right?

In your case all that "devotion" was a waste of time.

[Hans Bulvai]

Does that make you feel better about yourself? No lunch for you, much more devout than those chumps getting shelled by Assad, right?

In your case all that "devotion" was a waste of time.

It is forbidden for a Muslim to decide who is or not a 'true' Muslim.
Only God can judge; which we already established in your case you are God.
Those "chumps" have been fasting longer than the 30 days that some of us went with no lunch.

Who are you to judge what devotion was a waste of time?

Tell us Magic carpet boy, how many pounds did you lose this Ramadan?
How many poor did you feed in the Middle East?

[Ibrahim]

I think you missed the point, champ. What you did during Ramadan doesn't justify or mitigate your disgusting political stances. "I may support dictatorship for certain people, but you should watch me fast!"


I don't care about your literally holier-than-thou argument. We couldn't probably find somebody who fasts and preys even better than you, then chucks acid in some girl's face for going to school. You're both part of the problem.

[Ibrahim]

How many poor did you feed in the Middle East?

Riiiight. The most important part of charity is bragging about it to strangers on the internet.

[Hans Bulvai]

I think you missed the point, champ. What you did during Ramadan doesn't justify or mitigate your disgusting political stances. "I may support dictatorship for certain people, but you should watch me fast!"


I don't care about your literally holier-than-thou argument. We couldn't probably find somebody who fasts and preys even better than you, then chucks acid in some girl's face for going to school. You're both part of the problem.

I think that it is you who missed the point, holmes. What I did, or didn't do, has nothing to do with politics. That much you are right about.
But this was not about politics. This was about you questioning anyone's devotion based on some warped idea you have in your larger then life head.

I see. So anyone praying and fasting is equated with throwing acid in a girl's face. A sleazy way to defend an argument when it is you defending those who are razing mosques and burning books just so that you can jerk-off to your Rambo-like figure dropping pianos on those dictators.

[Hans Bulvai]

How many poor did you feed in the Middle East?

Riiiight. The most important part of charity is bragging about it to strangers on the internet.

Good one.

No one was bragging. But what strangers?
Hell, I thought that internet strangers are the only ones that can tolerate your annoying, watch me scream the loudest, holier than thou attitude.

[Hans Bulvai]

Not sure what those last two posts even mean, especially Rhapsody's which doesn't have any coherent point in it at all. Fortunately both of you have outed yourselves in the past, so we know what you are trying to say. Hans supports the dictatorship and Rhapsody just wants as many Muslims dead as possible. Thus the pathetic attempts to support the Assad regime or extend the conflict.

Let me see.
An article that talks about a regime co-opting a certain segment of the population into supporting it is somehow translated into support for a dictatorship.

huh...

[Ibrahim]

Hell, I thought that internet strangers are the only ones that can tolerate your annoying, watch me scream the loudest, holier than thou attitude.

Weren't you just bragging to me about how much weight you lost during Ramadan and your copious philanthropy?

[Ibrahim]

Let me see.
An article that talks about a regime co-opting a certain segment of the population into supporting it is somehow translated into support for a dictatorship.

I was referring to your consistent criticism of all of the Arab states that have overthrown various dictatorial regimes, and the "Arab Spring" in general. In all cases you chose the wrong side, and continue to support the wrong side because, as you stated, you believe that Arabs require dictatorial governments. You are diligently advocating for an ideology that is both a proven failure and immoral on a purely theoretical level. It's inexplicable and repugnant.

[Parodite]

"Create a new patchwork of national territories in the ME where people re-marry and form society with those that decide they want and can live together under one roof. New borders, different countries is what they need! "

Perhaps Right but hard to get there........

Most national divorces are not as polite as the Czech/Slovak one......

Quite true. In the case of the Middle East to redraw the lines where all birds of ethnic-sectarian feathers can flock together in newly created territorial units is utopian for many reasons. So it can be removed from the list of options.

But that leaves only 2 other options. Either those ethnic-sectarian groups learn to live together under the exisiting roofs as reasonably happy families, or war/ civil war with enormous numbers of casualties will change the maps.

Between the Utopia of Dr. Phil and Nature Red in Tooth and Claw there may be a less violent way out still. The Arab Spring is a hopeful sign, but the road ahead is bumpy with many ups and downs the coming decades. Dictatorial tendencies and non-democratic theocratic traditions don't disappear just like that. Things may also go different per ME country. It might also get totally out of control in the ME still. One can only hope it won't.

There's a fraction too much friction.

[Sparky]

Hell, I thought that internet strangers are the only ones that can tolerate your annoying, watch me scream the loudest, holier than thou attitude.

Weren't you just bragging to me about how much weight you lost during Ramadan and your copious philanthropy?

Weight loss? Many of the Muslims I know actually put on weight during Ramadan. Post sunset belly-bursting, sumptuous, multi-course meals and pancreas-cracking sugary confections seem to be the order of the night, culminating in a splendid blow out at the end on the season.

It's like a month of daily Christmas dinners.

Hans, you seem to have very little faith in the Arab's ability to better his own lot and create his own accountable and equitable form of government. Why?

[noddy]

from my perspective ibrahim is playing the big picture, long term spengler position that like china and europe the arabs need to go through the constant warfare unification stage until either a big ruler shows up or the people become so sick of death they want to try other ways, aka more killing please... kind of odd seeing as he ridicules that position.

hans is taking the small picture position, minimising the pain and suffering of the people that live their now, the previous status quo being less horrid in the grand spectrum of horrids

[Sparky]

I think Ib is more of a "fight for self determination, liberty and rule of law though the cost may be heavy" sort of a cove, really.

The preserving the status quo with universal oppression and a steady trickle of murder and torture line seems futile to me. It cannot defuse the inevitable detonation of the explosive mix of social and political problems - it just defers the day of the blast, whilst adding to the bodycount on a daily basis.

[Hans Bulvai]

Hell, I thought that internet strangers are the only ones that can tolerate your annoying, watch me scream the loudest, holier than thou attitude.

Weren't you just bragging to me about how much weight you lost during Ramadan and your copious philanthropy?

Weight loss? Many of the Muslims I know actually put on weight during Ramadan. Post sunset belly-bursting, sumptuous, multi-course meals and pancreas-cracking sugary confections seem to be the order of the night, culminating in a splendid blow out at the end on the season.

It's like a month of daily Christmas dinners.

Hans, you seem to have very little faith in the Arab's ability to better his own lot and create his own accountable and equitable form of government. Why?

Why?

Exactly because of what you said.

Many of the Muslims I know actually put on weight during Ramadan. Post sunset belly-bursting, sumptuous, multi-course meals and pancreas-cracking sugary confections seem to be the order of the night, culminating in a splendid blow out at the end on the season.

They are missing the big picture. They have drifted away from the even simple teachings of the Prophet. Where he united them they are now more than ever being divided.

[Hans Bulvai]

from my perspective ibrahim is playing the big picture, long term spengler position that like china and europe the arabs need to go through the constant warfare unification stage until either a big ruler shows up or the people become so sick of death they want to try other ways, aka more killing please... kind of odd seeing as he ridicules that position.

hans is taking the small picture position, minimising the pain and suffering of the people that live their now, the previous status quo being less horrid in the grand spectrum of horrids

Not quite. Regardless of what Ibrahim spews, both here and in PM's, I am not a supporter of Dictators killing and torturing their people. Raping women and throwing them off roof tops. You can go back to all my posts and you will not find anyting remotley close to that garbage. My position is simple. While it is great and heroic the efforts being put by the various Arab people to shed the boot from their neck, I forsee a worst future than what was there; for the region as a whole and Arabs as a people. Division is the biggest factor that will play a role in making sure that the future governments they envision to be ruled by, will not materialize. I even said it before, a strong central government (dictator, federal govt.,etc..) is what is needed. Never did I advocate the use of torture and killing to achieve those ends.

The status quo can never be maintained. Dictators and systems will enevitably fall. The next steps will be worst for the Arabs to self-determination than what was. That is my opinion.

[Hans Bulvai]

Hell, I thought that internet strangers are the only ones that can tolerate your annoying, watch me scream the loudest, holier than thou attitude.

Weren't you just bragging to me about how much weight you lost during Ramadan and your copious philanthropy?

I did?
You managed to equite fasting to throwing acid in people's faces.

[Hans Bulvai]

The preserving the status quo with universal oppression and a steady trickle of murder and torture line seems futile to me. It cannot defuse the inevitable detonation of the explosive mix of social and political problems - it just defers the day of the blast, whilst adding to the bodycount on a daily basis.

You are right. Whether what comes next is indeed better remains to be seen.

[Hans Bulvai]

I think Ib is more of a "fight for self determination, liberty and rule of law though the cost may be heavy" sort of a cove, really.

Ask him if the same applies to the Kurds.

[Ibrahim]

from my perspective ibrahim is playing the big picture, long term spengler position that like china and europe the arabs need to go through the constant warfare unification stage until either a big ruler shows up or the people become so sick of death they want to try other ways, aka more killing please... kind of odd seeing as he ridicules that position.

I don't see how you get there from where I am. Spengler wants killing for killing's sake, that's why he was tenting his fingers and cheerfully predicting mass starvation and endless civil war in Egypt right after the initial Tahir Square protests.

I'm talking about a series of revolutions against known-to-be-shitty dictators which are obviously going to cost lives but are an obvious improvement over the previous situation. To argue that people should live interminably under dictators because fighting them would cost lives and the new regime would not be perfect is a rationale that could be used to justify not fighting WW2 just as easily.

I think Ib is more of a "fight for self determination, liberty and rule of law though the cost may be heavy" sort of a cove, really.

The preserving the status quo with universal oppression and a steady trickle of murder and torture line seems futile to me. It cannot defuse the inevitable detonation of the explosive mix of social and political problems - it just defers the day of the blast, whilst adding to the bodycount on a daily basis.

To me it's a choice between tolerating an evil regime or attempting to create a better one. I'm handing out candy here, I don't even get the counterargument. If it's not an out-and-out support of dictatorship then it can't be anything else than "It's haaaard, why try?"

It also flies in the face of what is actually happening. The people in question are already conducting - or have completed - revolutions against these dictators. What kind of contrarian asshole do you have to be to argue that they should have stayed in their place and hope the hand fed them well?

[Ibrahim]

Hell, I thought that internet strangers are the only ones that can tolerate your annoying, watch me scream the loudest, holier than thou attitude.

Weren't you just bragging to me about how much weight you lost during Ramadan and your copious philanthropy?

I did?
You managed to equite fasting to throwing acid in people's faces.

No, I pointed out that even super-duper religious people can be evil pricks.

Ask him if the same applies to the Kurds.

Kurds can vote and have their own elected representatives in a functioning democracy (in Turkey anyway). Syrians have never had that, and according to you they aren't fit for it. You're pretty obviously wrong, regardless of how many times a day you pray.

[Hans Bulvai]

Hell, I thought that internet strangers are the only ones that can tolerate your annoying, watch me scream the loudest, holier than thou attitude.

Weren't you just bragging to me about how much weight you lost during Ramadan and your copious philanthropy?

I did?
You managed to equite fasting to throwing acid in people's faces.

No, I pointed out that even super-duper religious people can be evil pricks.

Super-duper religious people are generally pricks. Has nothing to do with fasting or praying.

Ask him if the same applies to the Kurds.

Kurds can vote and have their own elected representatives in a functioning democracy (in Turkey anyway). Syrians have never had that, and according to you they aren't fit for it. You're pretty obviously wrong, regardless of how many times a day you pray.[/quote]

I pray for the day when Arabs en masse can be united. Then they can pick whatever government they chose.

Can Kurds in a functioning democracy vote for their own country?

Following Turkey's electoral board decision to bar prominent Kurdish candidates who had outstanding warrants or where part of ongoing investigations for terrorist-related crimes from standing in upcoming elections,[21] violent Kurdish protests erupted in April 19, 2011, resulting in at least one casualty.[22]

The European Commission Against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) reports that (as of April 2010): "The public use by officials of the Kurdish language lays them open to prosecution, and public defence by individuals of Kurdish or minority interests also frequently leads to prosecutions under the Criminal Code."[34] From the 1994 briefing at the International Human Rights Law Group: "the problem in Turkey is the Constitution is against the Kurds and the apartheid constitution is very similar to it."[35]

Syrians could not vote but at least have/had their own country...

[Hans Bulvai]

I'm talking about a series of revolutions against known-to-be-shitty dictators which are obviously going to cost lives but are an obvious improvement over the previous situation. To argue that people should live interminably under dictators because fighting them would cost lives and the new regime would not be perfect is a rationale that could be used to justify not fighting WW2 just as easily.

Yeah... Creeping armies across Europe. Millions among millions dead. Concentration camps. Imperial tendencies. Deployment of WMD's. Destabalizing the whole globe. Nations fighting each other. Yup. Sounds like Syria. Asad is a prick and evil but comparing the situation to WW2 is a bit of a stretch counsler.

I think Ib is more of a "fight for self determination, liberty and rule of law though the cost may be heavy" sort of a cove, really.

The preserving the status quo with universal oppression and a steady trickle of murder and torture line seems futile to me. It cannot defuse the inevitable detonation of the explosive mix of social and political problems - it just defers the day of the blast, whilst adding to the bodycount on a daily basis.

To me it's a choice between tolerating an evil regime or attempting to create a better one. I'm handing out candy here, I don't even get the counterargument. If it's not an out-and-out support of dictatorship then it can't be anything else than "It's haaaard, why try?"

It also flies in the face of what is actually happening. The people in question are already conducting - or have completed - revolutions against these dictators. What kind of contrarian asshole do you have to be to argue that they should have stayed in their place and hope the hand fed them well?

Not stay in their place. History is against that notion. Simply what is coming next is not gonna be any better because of massive divisions amongsts the Arabs. Kinda similar to what happened when they fought against the Ottomans only to get fucked by the powers that saved them from the Ottomans. Should've stuck with Turkey.

[Sparky]

Hell, I thought that internet strangers are the only ones that can tolerate your annoying, watch me scream the loudest, holier than thou attitude.

Weren't you just bragging to me about how much weight you lost during Ramadan and your copious philanthropy?

Weight loss? Many of the Muslims I know actually put on weight during Ramadan. Post sunset belly-bursting, sumptuous, multi-course meals and pancreas-cracking sugary confections seem to be the order of the night, culminating in a splendid blow out at the end on the season.

It's like a month of daily Christmas dinners.

Hans, you seem to have very little faith in the Arab's ability to better his own lot and create his own accountable and equitable form of government. Why?

Why?

Exactly because of what you said.

Many of the Muslims I know actually put on weight during Ramadan. Post sunset belly-bursting, sumptuous, multi-course meals and pancreas-cracking sugary confections seem to be the order of the night, culminating in a splendid blow out at the end on the season.

They are missing the big picture. They have drifted away from the even simple teachings of the Prophet. Where he united them they are now more than ever being divided.

Oh, I don't know. Most well governed, relatively content nations have also turned their solemn religious holidays and seasons into family funtime - and the notion of Arabic unity seems pretty fanciful, as absurd as, say, Slavic unity or pan-Turkish unity. On that scale, it's little more than an exercise in herding dozens of vindictive, grudge bearing cats through a tuna canning plant on the way to the vet.

On a smaller scale, I can't see why smaller Arabic countries can't achieve the same level of basic good, consensual government enjoyed by other happier lands.

[Hans Bulvai]

Because even at a smaller scale they can't get along.
Look at the Palestinians, Lebanese, Iraqis, and the rich gulf countries.
They can't even manage to be fair to full segments of their populations.
Look at what is happening in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia where live bullets are being used against people asking for simple basic rights. In countries that can afford to be generous with them. They use the Sunni/Shia divide and Iran as the boogey man. Same is happening in Jordan today where many long-time Palestinian residents with Jordanian citizenships are being stripped of their citizenships.

relatively content nations have also turned their solemn religious holidays and seasons into family funtime

Nothing wrong with that at all. But that is what Eid is for and most Muslim countries spare no expense in celebrating it. Ramadan is a time for reflection not celebration.

Arabic unity seems pretty fanciful

Maybe but a people that share a common language, heritage, religion, moral law of conduct, etc.. can find a way. I never said it can happen. Thats actaully what I have been arguing as to why true peace can never be achieved.

Look at the Lebanon thread. The chaos in Syria is spreading into Lebanon. Iraq is now building walls at the border crossings to prevent a spill over. All these countries are intertwined. European countries have less in common and they managed to be united. Latin America is more united than ever. Why is that too much for the Arabs to have.

[Sparky]

Well, on the one hand this:

Because even at a smaller scale they can't get along.
Look at the Palestinians, Lebanese, Iraqis, and the rich gulf countries.
They can't even manage to be fair to full segments of their populations.
Look at what is happening in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia where live bullets are being used against people asking for simple basic rights. In countries that can afford to be generous with them. They use the Sunni/Shia divide and Iran as the boogey man. Same is happening in Jordan today where many long-time Palestinian residents with Jordanian citizenships are being stripped of their citizenships.

relatively content nations have also turned their solemn religious holidays and seasons into family funtime

Nothing wrong with that at all. But that is what Eid is for and most Muslim countries spare no expense in celebrating it. Ramadan is a time for reflection not celebration.

and on the other hand this:

Arabic unity seems pretty fanciful

Maybe but a people that share a common language, heritage, religion, moral law of conduct, etc.. can find a way. I never said it can happen. Thats actaully what I have been arguing as to why true peace can never be achieved.

If what you say is true on the small scale, then there is clearly even less hope on the large scale. That said, the examples you have given are worst case - Palestine, ffs.
Every one massively dysfunctional in its current form, and surely not examples of the Arab having his say.

How about Tunisia? Libya? Egypt? How about when Abdul Arab has a free(ish) go at deciding his own destiny, instead of trotting out the usual dismal litany of dictatorial monarchies, semi-colonies of local dictatorships and running sores such as poor old Palestine?

There is hope there, and certainly in Tunisia, clear success.

Look at the Lebanon thread. The chaos in Syria is spreading into Lebanon. Iraq is now building walls at the border crossings to prevent a spill over. All these countries are intertwined.

I don't think that's an indication of some sort of underlying unity. These countries are/have been:

1/ Dealing with unadressed political, religious and nationalistic internal problems which were held in check by decades of authoritarian rule.
2/ Struggling to overthrow unpleasant dictators.
3/ While in the throes of (1) and (2), dealing with all manner of foreign intervention, fiddling and diddling.

All states bordering each other are intertwined to some degree, and obviously in times of strife and chaos, the problems will leak across the lines on the map. This is doubly true when the lines on the map have little bearing on the actual national aspirations of the people who live on either side of such borders.

European countries have less in common and they managed to be united. Latin America is more united than ever. Why is that too much for the Arabs to have.

They are voluntary associations of functioning, sovereign states where government by consent and the rule of law are the norm rather than the exception. The commonality in how one is ruled and how one expects to be treated is the necessary precursor for some form of extra-national unity, not some hazy notions of heritage and religious brotherhood, which are as divisive as they are unifying.