More interesting, the 80 lashes for the man who falsely accuses a chaste woman of bad behavior. Not exactly the epitome of the anti-women religion some claim it to be. Actually, through out the Quran, and Hadith, protection for women and their rights is well documented and very clear. So it does not take lightly to whoring women, or men; semantics. Wasn't it Spengler that always argued a nation faces ruin when it begins to sell its women?monster_gardener wrote:Thank you Very Much for your post, Hans.Hans Bulvai wrote:My dear Marcus,
I'll try to give you an answer based on what I know and live.
The Hijab is mentioned in the Quran but not as a burkha or shadour. Hijab literarily means a 'concealer' derived from the verb 'Yahjob'.
The Quran says:
24:31And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, ...
So as you see, the requirement is to guard that which is precisely female that can cause lust. The breasts, neck, etc... The debates still rage as to whether the hair does need to be covered but the jury is still out. In the meantime, women in Islam feel that the requirement is to cover their hair. Maybe it is because the Quran commanded the Prophet's wives to cover up and you know how popular he is with Muslims... My wife wears a hijab, my mother and grandmother, who passed recently, do not. Belief is in piety and actions.
Cinci is right about what he said. What you see in walking tents is more cultural than religious. Besides, the hijab predates Islam. How else do you explain nuns.
Women who marry their rapists do so, or in some cases coerced, because of societal reasons more than Islamic. In most cases, it saves the woman from death and is a form of punishment for the rapists. Having him own up to his crime. It also saves a human life in the form of a fetus. Ideally rape would not exist, but it does and this is a way of dealing with it. Is it right? Ask the victim if she would rather be married off or killed? I agree with neither but it is what it is. A solution made to deal with a view that we will never understand.
Car bombs? One can argue illegal invasions, savage sanctions, support for dictators whose injustices are an extremist's membership application. Do you think Afghanis would resist less if they were not Muslim? The Quran says resist but do not transgress. It says killing an innocent is like killing all of humanity. Is it really Islam's fault that some will take an extreme view of what constitutes innocent? Blowing up an airliner with Western passengers for example? For the last 10 years, I have heard the equivalent of those passengers being called collateral damage because they are Muslim. Does it really matter if it is done in Christianity's name or not? These people fight in the name of Islam because it is all they know. But really they are fighting for their own existence. It could have been anything else. How about the Jews that claim to own borders that are not even defined in their own books...
You ask about the contrary voice. How about the rest of the billion plus that are not engaged in nose cutting, car bombings, etc... etc... I can't include the Burkha and Hijab in there because chances are most women choose to wear it. It is a choice and men are not allowed to force their women to wear a hijab even if it does get done. And many have and do speak out against all kinds of actions done in Islam's name but the agenda driven powers that be that own the truly rare resource otherwise known as the airwaves don't want you to hear it. Saudi Arabia, as the dear Colonel pointed out, plays a very negative role in all of this as well. It is easy to manipulate the poor. As Ali (not our own) rightly said, if poverty was a man I would have killed him.
Could a woman be a good Muslim woman without the Hijab? Absolutely. You are judged by your actions and faith. IS the woman in France, Turkey or Syria that is NOT allowed to wear a hijab any less Muslim than her Indonesian counterpart? No. And while we are on the subject, where are the voices cheering women's freedom in those instances that the Hijab is forbidden?
If an emphasis is present and strong, it is because some see it as part of their identity.
But I will leave you with some versus of the Quran in regards to women and equality.
What applies to men, applies to women; equally.
Please read through them and give me your opinion.
An-Noor (The Light)2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
3 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
4 And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
5 Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
6 And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
7 And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
8 But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
9 And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
An-Nisa (The Women)15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
16 If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
...
19 O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
20 But if ye decide to take one wife in place of another, even if ye had given the latter a whole treasure for dower, Take not the least bit of it back: Would ye take it by slander and manifest wrong?
Al-Ahzab (The Coalition)73 (With the result) that Allah has to punish the Hypocrites, men and women, and the Unbelievers, men and women, and Allah turns in Mercy to the Believers, men and women: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
Found the parts of the Koran you quoted such as the 100 lashes for fornication interesting.
Reminded me of the United Submitters...... basically Koran ONLY muslims without the name............
I believe the Jewish equivalent would be Karaite Jews buten.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Submitters_International
the Koran BY ITSELF is not as into capital punishment as the Tanakh.........
Problem may be that AIUI most Muslims also rely on the Hadiths and Sunnah & Fiqh etc.............. And that stuff is has a higher Death content........
As an aside, I wonder how many lashes the average human can take without major risk of death.......... Jewish law set it at 39 max supposedly optimax for max pain and min risk but the devil is no doubt in the details, type of lash, force of use, done at once or in installments etc..........
This Khalifa guy reminds me of a MR. David Koresh. We all know what happened to him in God's country. Went up in Satan's flames. He could have had a point had he not objected to using the Prophet's name in prayer knowing the first requirement of a Muslim is the Shahada. Then there was the whole he is a messenger thing that just really tarnished any credibility he had. But in the end, whether he was who he said he is, he was taken by probably the same mentallity that hung Jesus; granted he can never be a Isa.
And yes, the hadith does have a whole lot more killing in it and also when not to do it but that's not the extent of it. It has everything in it from how to be clean to how not to try and genuflect a poor blind guy, in the Capitalistic sense.
I think that the idea behind the 100 lashes is death. Just ask a Pakistani who's back saw a few lashes with some bare 1 awg power wire.