Why I hate both parties thread

[Demon of Undoing]

Just for shits and giggles;

Why bother?

Do you leave a garden untended?

Past a certain point, getting it back requires a slash-and-burn operation.

[Enki]

You make it sound like Ronald Reagan made it that way. Did you know that he did not?

No, he just expanded it seriously.

Did you know that Barack Obama will also jail you for pot, and yet you are picking a fight with Ronald Reagan and not Barack Obama? Why do you do that, do you think?

Yes, which is why I campaign against him and have probably taken more votes away from him than you will.

That is a strange reason to hate freedom. Really strange.

I don't hate what freedom actually means. I hate the version you love where fascist bureaucrats manufacture wars without end like the Cold War, War on Drugs or War on Terror that use war powers to remove civil liberties 'temporarily' for the duration of hostilities, which just so happen to be permanent.

I keep it simple. I get the right to the fruits of my labor, the right to have an opinion and express it, due process under the law based on probable cause, the right to defend myself with arms that I own, and would like the government to stick to it's constitutional limits. Seems like a pretty strange thing to hate.

Yes, you seem to be very keen on your own freedom, but don't give a lavender about anyone else's. You keep expressing admiration for policies that stripped people of their freedoms.

Did you see the movie J. Edgar? That's what you seem to have so much passion for. The fascists that created Federal agencies to usurp the civil liberties of anyone they deemed to be a 'leftist'. Your interests aren't the same as the big corporation building a factory in your town? Hey, you're a leftist! We'd better assign a case officer to watch you!

It's absolutely absurd when people call it stealing money to pay for healthcare, but the budgets of the ACTUAL NANNIES you seem totally cool with.

I'm all for you keeping the fruits of your labor, the right to have an opinion and express it, due process under the law based on probable cause, the right to defend myself with arms that you own, and I would also like the government to stick it it's constitutional limits. But the way most of those things have been damaged was by THE COLD WAR. The War on Terror is simply the Cold War repackaged. It's still about fighting Russia. It's still about fighting leftist radicals. You thought that was grand, well, it has been destroying Constitutional boundaries since WWII, and you still think it's grand. You didn't care when it was Emma Goldman being deported, you only cared when it's some dude touching your balls at the airport.

If you really were for all of those things, you'd think the Cold War was a horrible period in our history and that it's damages need to be repaired. You'd think that Communists would have a right to be Americans and to express their political views through the normal political process, rather than creating Federal Bureaus of Investigation to attack them.

[Enki]

Tell me that you actually understand how the Cold War damaged Civil Liberties across the board, and then I will believe you when you say you want to fight for liberty. But how can you say you fought the fight your whole life when you support the fascist nanny state programs that brought us to where we are today?

[Mr. Perfect]

No, he just expanded it seriously.

Yes, which is why I campaign against him and have probably taken more votes away from him than you will.

You campain against him? WHen are you going to start doing that here?

I don't hate what freedom actually means. I hate the version you love where fascist bureaucrats manufacture wars without end like the Cold War, War on Drugs or War on Terror that use war powers to remove civil liberties 'temporarily' for the duration of hostilities, which just so happen to be permanent.

Yes, you seem to be very keen on your own freedom, but don't give a lavender about anyone else's. You keep expressing admiration for policies that stripped people of their freedoms.

Did you see the movie J. Edgar? That's what you seem to have so much passion for. The fascists that created Federal agencies to usurp the civil liberties of anyone they deemed to be a 'leftist'. Your interests aren't the same as the big corporation building a factory in your town? Hey, you're a leftist! We'd better assign a case officer to watch you!

Lots of people who were pulling for the Soviet Union said things like this. Lots.

It's absolutely absurd when people call it stealing money to pay for healthcare, but the budgets of the ACTUAL NANNIES you seem totally cool with.

I'm all for you keeping the fruits of your labor, the right to have an opinion and express it, due process under the law based on probable cause, the right to defend myself with arms that you own, and I would also like the government to stick it it's constitutional limits. But the way most of those things have been damaged was by THE COLD WAR. The War on Terror is simply the Cold War repackaged. It's still about fighting Russia. It's still about fighting leftist radicals. You thought that was grand, well, it has been destroying Constitutional boundaries since WWII, and you still think it's grand. You didn't care when it was Emma Goldman being deported, you only cared when it's some dude touching your balls at the airport.

I think you are preoccupied with the Cold War. For many of us it is a pleasant memory now, not so much a fixation.

Do you know who deported Emma Goldman? (It was not a Republican). I can't remember Ronald Reagan ever deporting someone because of their political views.

I'm struggling to remember an internment program during the Reagan Administration. Do you know of any?

If you really were for all of those things, you'd think the Cold War was a horrible period in our history and that it's damages need to be repaired. You'd think that Communists would have a right to be Americans and to express their political views through the normal political process, rather than creating Federal Bureaus of Investigation to attack them.

The Cold War was wonderful, because we beat the Soviets. Every time you defeat an existential threat, boy what a feeling that is. I still get glowing sensation when I think about that. I love it.

[Mr. Perfect]

Tell me that you actually understand how the Cold War damaged Civil Liberties across the board, and then I will believe you when you say you want to fight for liberty. But how can you say you fought the fight your whole life when you support the fascist nanny state programs that brought us to where we are today?

The Cold War net increased civil liberties across the world, including the US, because the SU was no more. Thank God.

[YMix]

The Cold War net increased civil liberties across the world, including the US, because the SU was no more. Thank God.

That's a narrow and self-serving point of view.

[Mr. Perfect]

Sometimes narrow and self serving points of view also happen to be the truth.

[Enki]

No, it's simply a lie. You don't even believe it.

Tell me, are the people in prison due to the drug war more free than they were before? What about the Communist/Socialist clubs that Palmer and Hoover came in and beat the lavender out of, were they more free after?

You don't care about freedom for anyone but yourself. That's what the Cold War was about. The Soviet Union was not really any worse than any number of dictatorships the United States has supported throughout the years. People love to talk about all of those poor people the Soviets killed, but America killed just as many. Are the people of Laos freer dead than they were when they were alive?

The Cold War is why I hate both parties. We are all held hostage by the warmongers who play their great games. Of course, the people keep volunteering to be pawns in their games. They volunteer to go rape and slaughter for the boss man, whether he is Sir, Bossman Sir, or Comrade Bossman.

[YMix]

Sometimes narrow and self serving points of view also happen to be the truth.

They are small and conveniently selected parts of far bigger pictures.

[Enki]

Mr. Perfect sold himself to right-wing astroturf. What can you do?

[Mr. Perfect]

No, it's simply a lie. You don't even believe it.

You always see right through me.

Tell me, are the people in prison due to the drug war more free than they were before? What about the Communist/Socialist clubs that Palmer and Hoover came in and beat the lavender out of, were they more free after?

Hey, Democrat Presidents, what are you going to do.

You don't care about freedom for anyone but yourself.

Well no, I care about the freedom of my family and friends also.

That's what the Cold War was about. The Soviet Union was not really any worse than any number of dictatorships the United States has supported throughout the years. People love to talk about all of those poor people the Soviets killed, but America killed just as many. Are the people of Laos freer dead than they were when they were alive?

The Cold War is why I hate both parties. We are all held hostage by the warmongers who play their great games. Of course, the people keep volunteering to be pawns in their games. They volunteer to go rape and slaughter for the boss man, whether he is Sir, Bossman Sir, or Comrade Bossman.

I'm sure I'll never change your mind.

In the meantime the SU is history and the US is not. That appears to be upsetting to some people.



The only real threats to freedom now appear to be internal. We're working on those right now.

[Mr. Perfect]

Mr. Perfect sold himself to right-wing astroturf. What can you do?

And I got a very good price.

[Enki]

Mr. Perfect sold himself to right-wing astroturf. What can you do?

And I got a very good price.

Yeah Old Scratch's prices are so low they're through the floor!

[Enki]

Well no, I care about the freedom of my family and friends also.

Right, only the people who you can identify with as being an extension of self.

In the meantime the SU is history and the US is not. That appears to be upsetting to some people.

No, what's upsetting is that the US IS history. That's what's upsetting. And you cheer the malevolent force that destroyed it.

The only real threats to freedom now appear to be internal. We're working on those right now.

Good luck. But somehow I doubt you're even working on the problem at all, you're probably just figuring out how to replace Democrats with Republicans.

[noddy]

Yeah. Things can change though.

It seems Noddy and Ibrahim get the gist of what I am saying even if the three of us may not agree on a history or proscription for it. Certain characters, which now appear waning, need to be reasserted in order to achieve what you want. The Constitution itself cannot build that character, only the people can. So in order to build the people, you must build the desirable communal sense and embrace something beyond calls of liberty and individualism.

the problem is that i very much am a multicultural liberty kind of guy and their is no proscription!

its a problem alot of libertarians have, we are highly aware that their are lots of different viewpoints, we understand that by and large most of them work internally for those that share those viewpoints and we just dribble and twitch when a single viewpoint comes across as self appointed superior and enforces the "one true way".

its constant source of problems for me when it comes to philosophy arguments.... i sure do know what works for my little world of like minded friends and family.. its a messy mix of most of the apparently competing ideologies with nuances about when the competitive/cooperative/communist/capitalist lines in the sand are... and i know damn well that other cohesive communities have completely different senses of all that and are perfectly stable and happy.

which is why it does tend to reduce to an unsatisfying "liberty and individualism" .. the details are left up to the individual and how THEY choose to interact with their local communities.

thats why all i can say is "smaller, self sufficient communities which dont dick size against other communities".. beyond that and your into imperialism...we share, we learn from each other,their is multicultural exchange.. but it happens gently, with consent ..i know that certain christian communities are frothing at the mouth to tell me "but but but, thats what we give you" .. and i dont disagree, but they dont have a monopoly on such abstractions.

its a viewpoint that only appears transiently after a period of monocultural stagnation and i think the worst of it for many of us is that the new world aint so new anymore, its become the old world and now needs to crush itself with old world stupidity before their will be any chance of that kind of rebirth.

more weight!

i know ive left out the other aspect of this, the atomised, bedroom and work bound inner city modern, so to maintain my loonyness, i dont blame the breakdown in christianity, I blame the drink driving laws... take a people who could only socialise whilst semi drunk at bbq's and beer gardens and puritanically tell them they shouldnt need the alcohol and take the ability to socialise drunk off them..... it backfired and they stayed at home and got drunk there instead.

[Mr. Perfect]

Right, only the people who you can identify with as being an extension of self.

I don't mind if anyboyd is free, that's fine, just not everybody wants to be free, so I won't fight for their freedom. Take you for instance.

No, what's upsetting is that the US IS history. That's what's upsetting. And you cheer the malevolent force that destroyed it.

The Palmer raids? J Edgar Hoover? Japanese-American internment? That's a lot of pre-cold war stuff. If you think America was destroyed before the cold war your kvetching about it doesn't make any sense.

Good luck. But somehow I doubt you're even working on the problem at all, you're probably just figuring out how to replace Democrats with Republicans.

Getting rid of the Democrats is part of the process.

[Enki]

I don't mind if anyboyd is free, that's fine, just not everybody wants to be free, so I won't fight for their freedom. Take you for instance.

Yeah, you're selective about who gets to be free. I know. Enjoy the TSA molestation, you brought it on yourself.

The Palmer raids? J Edgar Hoover? Japanese-American internment? That's a lot of pre-cold war stuff. If you think America was destroyed before the cold war your kvetching about it doesn't make any sense.

It's all of the same piece.

Getting rid of the Democrats is part of the process.

No, you're just being self-serving. People who care about freedom care about the freedom of all people. You don't know the difference between money and freedom. You don't fight for freedom, you fight for money. Whatever system will make you more money, you'll call that freedom.

[Mr. Perfect]

Yeah, you're selective about who gets to be free. I know. Enjoy the TSA molestation, you brought it on yourself.

I didn't vote for Obama. I voted against him. You however voted for Obama.

It's all of the same piece.

No, you're just being self-serving. People who care about freedom care about the freedom of all people. You don't know the difference between money and freedom. You don't fight for freedom, you fight for money. Whatever system will make you more money, you'll call that freedom.

Don't you have to first believe in freedom, that it is a good thing, in order to fight for it?

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Just for shits and giggles;

Why bother?

Do you leave a garden untended?

Past a certain point, getting it back requires a slash-and-burn operation.

Perhaps, but I am a slow and steady sort. And as much as I appreciate and understand creative destruction, when I see everyone around me screaming "Fire!" I tend to adopt a "Stay Calm, Carry On" mentality.

[Demon of Undoing]

Just for shits and giggles;

Why bother?

Do you leave a garden untended?

Past a certain point, getting it back requires a slash-and-burn operation.

Perhaps, but I am a slow and steady sort. And as much as I appreciate and understand creative destruction, when I see everyone around me screaming "Fire!" I tend to adopt a "Stay Calm, Carry On" mentality.

I argue for radical re-involvement. Maybe I'll run for judge.

[Enki]

I argue for radical re-involvement. Maybe I'll run for judge.

Elections for judges are so strange. You can't really have anything to go on when voting for someone to become a judge. Even political operatives and very politically involved people have no clue about how to properly vet someone to become a judge.

[Ibrahim]

That's what the Cold War was about. The Soviet Union was not really any worse than any number of dictatorships the United States has supported throughout the years. People love to talk about all of those poor people the Soviets killed, but America killed just as many.

I don't know if this is what the Cold War "was about," but its certainly historically true that the US backed many dictators as bad or worse than the Soviets on the basis that the country in question would then be a US ally/supporter/whatever rather than part of the communist bloc.

[Enki]

That's what the Cold War was about. The Soviet Union was not really any worse than any number of dictatorships the United States has supported throughout the years. People love to talk about all of those poor people the Soviets killed, but America killed just as many.

I don't know if this is what the Cold War "was about," but its certainly historically true that the US backed many dictators as bad or worse than the Soviets on the basis that the country in question would then be a US ally/supporter/whatever rather than part of the communist bloc.

And in the name of fighting communism the right made us more like the Communists in every way that actually mattered. We had to lose civil rights in order to fight communists, and it was cheered all along the way by people who confused money with freedom.

[Juno]

Elephant lavender or Donkey lavender,
It's still lavender

[monster_gardener]

Elephant lavender or Donkey lavender,
It's still lavender

Thank you Very Much for your post, Juno.

Welcome aboard............