Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

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Mr. Perfect
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Re: US Embassy conquered in Tunisa

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Uche Americanus wrote:Ibrahim is arguing against reality and in the process being an apologist for evil.
Unfortunately it is not the first time.
Nigeria is being called upon to help restore order to Mali and to wrestle Northern Mali from the grip of Islamist terror. I think that Nigeria plays a more positive role in it's corner of the world than Turkey does in it's own part.

I can understand imperfect democracy as nations new to it work and struggle to build institutions that will support it's growth, development and permanence. But it is not obvious that the Muslim dominated countries are even willing to attempt this. Their tendency, as best as one can discern it, is one of violence and the imposition of an atavistic way of life based on their religion. Disagreements, so essential to the practice of democracy, are often met with blood curdling rage and bombs.
The argument can be made.
I'm sorry to be this clear and to not mince words but I take solace that there are still some quarters left where one can still call a spade a spade. Every day we are told by the likes of Ibrahim that terror is a practice only supported by a small, tiny minority in the Muslim world
Indeed. If that were true it seems like it would be fairly easy to snuff out. And of course if it isn't true... oh boy.
and every day we await the moderate Muslim majority to step up to the plate and reclaim their religion and their societies from this tiny number of terrorists but alas, our wait appears hopeless as we continuously witness the deafening silence of the Muslim majority. Instead, they offer us excuses and alibis and only after the fact.
More or less.

Interesting name change Uche.

Sorry you got fooled by Obama. I tried to warn a lot of people, but Democrats simply can't be trusted especially on foreign policy. I watched them take the side of the Soviets, the communists during the Cold War and as such they can never be trusted. When they were protesting the Bush era wars I knew they were lying, they are perfectly happy killing people for political gain themselves, for the illusion of power it brings, as we see now. I knew all of this would happen and tried to warn people.

Hopefully you can see where I was coming from now. It wasn't just partisan blather. I know these people, I know what they are capable of.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

Endovelico wrote:.

It seems obvious that the present attacks on Americans throughout the Middle East and North Africa have very little to do with the anti-Islam movie. The sad truth is that the US and Americans are hated in the region, and only their withdrawal from the Middle East may put an end to that hatred. The only legitimate interest the US may have in the Middle East is to preserve access to oil. But that problem cannot be solved by a military presence in the region. If Americans want Middle Eastern oil they can have it by paying its current price, in competition with other buyers. As simple as that. Trying to guarantee an oil supply by waging war, by antagonizing some governments and befriending others, no matter how authoritarian they may be, will not work for much longer. If Americans believe in the working of markets, then let the market forces work, and pay their prices. Imperialism and brute force are no longer acceptable.

.

If west leaves ME, price of oil will drop

Oil production will increase, perpetual war caused by western agitation will disappear and Oil price will drop substantial

High Oil prices not benefiting ME people as nothing trickles down to them .. real benefit of Oil revenue to ME people is less than half of market price, probably less .. the rest is clawed back buy selling arms (organizing wars between brother countries), hookers, yachts, private B474 with swimming pool, London homes worth $ 500 million


Meaning, west in ME not to ensure Oil flow, but to keep a high price of Oil @ the same time paying as low (effective) price as it gets to ME mass


Any country wanting the full price for Oil (Iran), is a terrorist state



.
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monster_gardener
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They Despised & Hated Uz When We Had Done Them No Harm......

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:It seems obvious that the present attacks on Americans throughout the Middle East and North Africa have very little to do with the anti-Islam movie. The sad truth is that the US and Americans are hated in the region, and only their withdrawal from the Middle East may put an end to that hatred. The only legitimate interest the US may have in the Middle East is to preserve access to oil. But that problem cannot be solved by a military presence in the region. If Americans want Middle Eastern oil they can have it by paying its current price, in competition with other buyers. As simple as that. Trying to guarantee an oil supply by waging war, by antagonizing some governments and befriending others, no matter how authoritarian they may be, will not work for much longer. If Americans believe in the working of markets, then let the market forces work, and pay their prices. Imperialism and brute force are no longer acceptable.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Endo.
It seems obvious that the present attacks on Americans throughout the Middle East and North Africa have very little to do with the anti-Islam movie.
Partially true....... They despise us as slutty infidels & more already but the film increases that to anger and action..... *
The sad truth is that the US and Americans are hated in the region,
And also hated & despised are other Westerners and non Muslims ..... A traditional Arab/Muslim term for Euro Westerners is "Franks" that is French as in the Frankish Western Hero Karl Martel who beat the invading Muslims/Arabs/Moors at Tours in 732.......
and only their withdrawal from the Middle East may put an end to that hatred.
Nope......... They despised/hated the Euros and Uz enough to invade, enslave and kill them & Uz when we had done them no harm..........
In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

BTW Muslims like Bin Ladin want the Iberian Peninsula back under Muslim Rule and Law...... that sounds pretty close home.....
Imperialism and brute force are no longer acceptable.
Tell that to the Tibetans......

This is not JUST a Muslim thing........

It's the depraved sinful nature of human beings/Killer Apes.......

Too often we don't play well with each other........ Not always but too often........

Human beings are not as bad as lions when it comes to killing our children and each other.......

But we're working on it........ :twisted: :evil: :roll: :(

Human Nature may work half way when the apes are armed with rocks, club, swords, spears and even guns.......

IMVHO it becomes dicey when the apes/humans get armed with WMDs...... Nukes......and Bio-Chemical weapons.........

Time for the Tribes of Earth to be separated by Astronomical Units or Light Years and Parsecs......

And ironically, the nukes may give us a way off this madhouse rock called Earth.......

Orion Must Rise.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Or ... pulsion%29




*And the AQ Muslim types may well have wanted to again make September 11 a Muslim Victory Celebration Day instead of a Muslim Day of Shame being the date that Jan Sobieski and the Poles defeated the Muslim Turks outside the Gates of Vienna...........
Last edited by monster_gardener on Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:35 am, edited 6 times in total.
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noddy
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by noddy »

even my dinky little country got some outrage.
On 15 September 2012, up to 500 people gathered to protest the film outside the United States Consulate General in Martin Place, Sydney, New South Wales. Demonstrators carried signs saying "Behead all those who insult the Prophet" and chanted pro-Islamic and pro-Osama bin Laden sentiments. Police attempted to form a line in front of the protesters however the line broke which caused the demonstration to become mobile. Police used pepper spray and deployed police dogs amid violent confrontations with protesters. Six police officers, several protesters and civilians were injured, two police vehicles were also damaged in the protest. Protesters directly attacked police by throwing projectiles and assaulting officers with banners, the latter led to one officer being knocked unconscious.
my athiest friends only really got upset at the kids carrying the beheading signs, if you want to talk about sensibilities and sensitivities then thats a redline for most middle class people.

the usual muslim reps got up and said it was unrepresentative and they didnt like the banners either so i expect it to blow over.

its only nsw and sydney that seemed to get the ghettos of hyper muslims from egypt and co, the rest of the states seemed to avoid it by allowing only middle class immigration.
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Re: US Embassy conquered in Tunisa

Post by Ibrahim »

Uche Americanus wrote:Ibrahim is arguing against reality and in the process being an apologist for evil.
What an unjustified and dishonest accusation, though not the first false statement Uche has made in his brief participation in this thread.


Nigeria is being called upon to help restore order to Mali and to wrestle Northern Mali from the grip of Islamist terror. I think that Nigeria plays a more positive role in it's corner of the world than Turkey does in it's own part.
Good luck with that.
I can understand imperfect democracy as nations new to it work and struggle to build institutions that will support it's growth, development and permanence. But it is not obvious that the Muslim dominated countries are even willing to attempt this.
A deliberate lie. What is undemocratic about the elections in Libya, Tunisia, or Egypt? In Libya in particular the election results favored moderate parties and elected a moderate President, results that directly repudiate groups like those that attacked the US consulate. Furthermore your dishonest claims totally ignore Islamic countries with functioning democracies prior to the Arab spring (e.g. Turkey).

Their tendency, as best as one can discern it, is one of violence and the imposition of an atavistic way of life based on their religion. Disagreements, so essential to the practice of democracy, are often met with blood curdling rage and bombs.
Further lies. Not only is this untrue of the democratic process in the examples I cited, but as somebody who purports to speak for Africa you should be aware of the complete failures of any sort of government or rule of law, and appalling violence and horror, that accompanies failed Christian-dominated states in that continent as well. At best you are taking banal observations that apply to any failed state, and dishonestly and without substantiation asserting that they are a feature of majority Muslim states.
I'm sorry to be this clear and to not mince words but I take solace that there are still some quarters left where one can still call a spade a spade.
Not the expression I would have chosen, but anyway.
Every day we are told by the likes of Ibrahim that terror is a practice only supported by a small, tiny minority in the Muslim world and every day we await the moderate Muslim majority to step up to the plate and reclaim their religion and their societies from this tiny number of terrorists but alas, our wait appears hopeless as we continuously witness the deafening silence of the Muslim majority.
A deliberate lie, contradicted by the facts on the ground. Note that Uche chose not to comment on my reply to his first iteration of this illogical nonsense. It was:
Ibrahim wrote:Aside from being false this is also illogical. If AQ-stype terrorists actually had the numbers or support to hold power, they would cease to be terrorists and institute some kind of hell-state cross between Khomeini-era Iran and North Korea. The fact that they have to scurry around and conduct terrorist attacks against soft targets proves that they are marginal.
You also didn't comment on the constant killing of Muslim civilians by Western armed forces for the past decade, and more irregularly before that, and how they might feature into the anger directed at US diplomatic posts. The pro-US demonstrations in Benghazi were another troublesome fact that Uche has ignored.




Instead, they offer us excuses and alibis and only after the fact.
Accurately describing events as they are taking place is not an "excuse." Your only real objection to my statements is that they contradict your falsehoods and biased propaganda.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

noddy wrote:the usual muslim reps got up and said it was unrepresentative and they didnt like the banners either so i expect it to blow over.
Odd that this both demanded and then mocked every time somebody associated with Islam does something.

On 15 September 2012, up to 500 people gathered to protest the film outside the United States Consulate General in Martin Place, Sydney, New South Wales.
Amazed there are that many Arabs in Australia. ;)
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Marcus
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Re: US Embassy conquered in Tunisa

Post by Marcus »

Uche Americanus wrote:Ibrahim is arguing against reality and in the process being an apologist for evil. Nigeria is being called upon to help restore order to Mali and to wrestle Northern Mali from the grip of Islamist terror. I think that Nigeria plays a more positive role in it's corner of the world than Turkey does in it's own part.

I can understand imperfect democracy as nations new to it work and struggle to build institutions that will support it's growth, development and permanence. But it is not obvious that the Muslim dominated countries are even willing to attempt this. Their tendency, as best as one can discern it, is one of violence and the imposition of an atavistic way of life based on their religion.
Disagreements, so essential to the practice of democracy, are often met with blood curdling rage and bombs.

I'm sorry to be this clear and to not mince words but I take solace that there are still some quarters left where one can still call a spade a spade. Every day we are told by the likes of Ibrahim that terror is a practice only supported by a small, tiny minority in the Muslim world and every day we await the moderate Muslim majority to step up to the plate and reclaim their religion and their societies from this tiny number of terrorists but alas, our wait appears hopeless as we continuously witness the deafening silence of the Muslim majority. Instead, they offer us excuses and alibis and only after the fact.
Some folks do not argue at all but rather erupt into wrathful, raging name-calling of any and all who dare disagree with them. A classic but tragic example of Uche's point above . . rational, respectful disagreement is simply not possible with some folks and with some religions.

No need to apologize, Uche, you've hit the nail squarely on the head.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Enki »

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/pcp/

Nakoula was an FBI informant.
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Endovelico
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Re: They Despised & Hated Uz When We Had Done Them No Harm..

Post by Endovelico »

monster_gardener wrote: BTW Muslims like Bin Ladin want the Iberian Peninsula back under Muslim Rule and Law...... that sounds pretty close home.....
Gosh! Should I emigrate?...Or should I convert to Islam?... :roll:
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Re: US Embassy conquered in Tunisa

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:
Uche Americanus wrote:Ibrahim is arguing against reality and in the process being an apologist for evil. Nigeria is being called upon to help restore order to Mali and to wrestle Northern Mali from the grip of Islamist terror. I think that Nigeria plays a more positive role in it's corner of the world than Turkey does in it's own part.

I can understand imperfect democracy as nations new to it work and struggle to build institutions that will support it's growth, development and permanence. But it is not obvious that the Muslim dominated countries are even willing to attempt this. Their tendency, as best as one can discern it, is one of violence and the imposition of an atavistic way of life based on their religion.
Disagreements, so essential to the practice of democracy, are often met with blood curdling rage and bombs.

I'm sorry to be this clear and to not mince words but I take solace that there are still some quarters left where one can still call a spade a spade. Every day we are told by the likes of Ibrahim that terror is a practice only supported by a small, tiny minority in the Muslim world and every day we await the moderate Muslim majority to step up to the plate and reclaim their religion and their societies from this tiny number of terrorists but alas, our wait appears hopeless as we continuously witness the deafening silence of the Muslim majority. Instead, they offer us excuses and alibis and only after the fact.
Ibrahim does not argue at all but rather resorts to wrathful, raging name-calling of any and all who dare disagree with him.
An obvious lie. In all my disputes with Marcus, and my dispute with Uche, I cite both historical and present day examples to support and justify my statements and positions.

A classic but tragic example of Uche's point above . . rational, respectful disagreement is simply not possible with some folks and with some religions.
Aside from being a dishonest slander against me personally, this is also a bigoted statement against all members of a religion. All based on Marcus' inability to ever support a word he says, and his anger at me for pointing this out. What generalizations could one make about Protestant Christians if they used Marcus' disgraceful behavior as an example?
No need to apologize, Uche, you've hit the nail squarely on the head.
Uche's comments were unsubstantiated and frequently dishonest, as I have demonstrated with specific examples.
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Re: US Embassy conquered in Tunisa

Post by Typhoon »

Marcus wrote:
Uche Americanus wrote:Ibrahim is arguing against reality and in the process being an apologist for evil. Nigeria is being called upon to help restore order to Mali and to wrestle Northern Mali from the grip of Islamist terror. I think that Nigeria plays a more positive role in it's corner of the world than Turkey does in it's own part.

I can understand imperfect democracy as nations new to it work and struggle to build institutions that will support it's growth, development and permanence. But it is not obvious that the Muslim dominated countries are even willing to attempt this. Their tendency, as best as one can discern it, is one of violence and the imposition of an atavistic way of life based on their religion.
Disagreements, so essential to the practice of democracy, are often met with blood curdling rage and bombs.

I'm sorry to be this clear and to not mince words but I take solace that there are still some quarters left where one can still call a spade a spade. Every day we are told by the likes of Ibrahim that terror is a practice only supported by a small, tiny minority in the Muslim world and every day we await the moderate Muslim majority to step up to the plate and reclaim their religion and their societies from this tiny number of terrorists but alas, our wait appears hopeless as we continuously witness the deafening silence of the Muslim majority. Instead, they offer us excuses and alibis and only after the fact.
Ibrahim does not argue at all but rather resorts to wrathful, raging name-calling of any and all who dare disagree with him. A classic but tragic example of Uche's point above . . rational, respectful disagreement is simply not possible with some folks and with some religions.

No need to apologize, Uche, you've hit the nail squarely on the head.
Pot meet kettle.

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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Typhoon »

This film, if it can be called that, has to be the greatest and most successful troll in the short history of the internet.

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My bad . . .

Post by Marcus »

Typhoon wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Uche Americanus wrote:Ibrahim is arguing against reality and in the process being an apologist for evil. Nigeria is being called upon to help restore order to Mali and to wrestle Northern Mali from the grip of Islamist terror. I think that Nigeria plays a more positive role in it's corner of the world than Turkey does in it's own part.

I can understand imperfect democracy as nations new to it work and struggle to build institutions that will support it's growth, development and permanence. But it is not obvious that the Muslim dominated countries are even willing to attempt this. Their tendency, as best as one can discern it, is one of violence and the imposition of an atavistic way of life based on their religion.
Disagreements, so essential to the practice of democracy, are often met with blood curdling rage and bombs.

I'm sorry to be this clear and to not mince words but I take solace that there are still some quarters left where one can still call a spade a spade. Every day we are told by the likes of Ibrahim that terror is a practice only supported by a small, tiny minority in the Muslim world and every day we await the moderate Muslim majority to step up to the plate and reclaim their religion and their societies from this tiny number of terrorists but alas, our wait appears hopeless as we continuously witness the deafening silence of the Muslim majority. Instead, they offer us excuses and alibis and only after the fact.


Ibrahim does not argue at all but rather resorts to wrathful, raging name-calling of any and all who dare disagree with him. A classic but tragic example of Uche's point above . . rational, respectful disagreement is simply not possible with some folks and with some religions.

No need to apologize, Uche, you've hit the nail squarely on the head.
Pot meet kettle.

For all who have a need to discuss other posters, a reminder that you can do so in the Hell section which such discussions appropriately belong.
My bad, should not have made my comments personal. But I've fixed it (see above):
Marcus wrote:Some folks do not argue at all but rather erupt into wrathful, raging name-calling of any and all who dare disagree with them. A classic but tragic example of Uche's point above . . rational, respectful disagreement is simply not possible with some folks and with some religions.

No need to apologize, Uche, you've hit the nail squarely on the head.
Uche made, what is to my mind, a very valid point—multiculturalism/democracy demands the ability to accept the fact that others see things differently and to respect differences of opinions. Unfortunately such is not always possible. There really are people who for religious or other reasons simply cannot understand that what is a lie to one person is the truth to another. Multiculturalism/democracy is not possible where some are so egotistic, so self-inflated, so whatever that all differences of opinion culminate in accusations of lying, racism, slander, etc.

That's all . . will endeavor in the future to keep my observations impersonal . . :oops:
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Ibrahim
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

Ah, the same unsubstantiated slanders twice. That's some good content.
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Would suggest Brazil & Rio...Whipping Women vs Wine & Song..

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
monster_gardener wrote: BTW Muslims like Bin Ladin want the Iberian Peninsula back under Muslim Rule and Law...... that sounds pretty close home.....
Gosh! Should I emigrate?...Or should I convert to Islam?... :roll:
Thank You Very Much for your reply, Endo.

Per the final part of my post.............

Given the way things are going WMD wise, I would suggest emigration to the Southern Hemisphere........

Southern Brazil might be a good place for someone who speaks Portuguese/the language of Camoens........

Rio sounds pretty good........ Carnival........ Beaches..............

May be far enough south for the fallout to decline to a liveable level after the upcoming Mr. Madhi vs. Ms. Samson Masada match in the Northern Hemisphere


Conversion to Islam does have some evil benefits...... up to 4 wives and as many girlfriends as you can support........... Get to beat them if they sass you........ Get to lie to Infidels.....

Does have the drawback of Lent on Steriods a.k.a. Ramadan: No Food and NO Water during daylight for a lunar month.... Pray that it doesn't happen in summer...

Plus NO Booze.............. :(

Would have to get rid of any pet dogs as Fido keeps Angels out of your house.....
Those dogs are powerful......... :lol: And some of them didn't like Mohammed.......... :shock:

Figurative art tends to be a No No and likewise for Music especially if you are Sunni.....
Shia will cut you some slack on this subject but can be nuts on ritual purity* plus they often into self flagellation.......

Could depend on whether you prefer being able to dominate Women with a Whip ;) to indulging in Wine and Song with them......... :lol:

Biggest problem may be if you try Islam and don't like it......... Death penalty for apostates often applies........ :shock: :evil:


The real shame is that we all can't emigrate off planet......

*Don't like having raindrops splash from infidels onto them and similar.............
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by noddy »

Ibrahim wrote:
noddy wrote:the usual muslim reps got up and said it was unrepresentative and they didnt like the banners either so i expect it to blow over.
Odd that this both demanded and then mocked every time somebody associated with Islam does something.
not odd at all, any time a christian loony group does something stupid the usual mainline christian reps are on tv calming nerves, ditto the extremist green groups and pretty much any other group that wants to maintain secular middle class cred.

if mocking the prophet is an untouchable red line for many muslims its also true to say that getting kids to hold banners asking for beheadings due to insults is an untouchable red line for many secular middle class.

lucky im not either group so feh, its all free speech to me until it turns violent and the violent ones will get chucked into gaol like any other wild animal.. simple really.

as i said, im not expecting any blowback from this in australia, the violent idiots on either side will be treated as such, and the rest will move on.
Ibrahim wrote:
On 15 September 2012, up to 500 people gathered to protest the film outside the United States Consulate General in Martin Place, Sydney, New South Wales.
Amazed there are that many Arabs in Australia. ;)
if i was of a certain personality i would suggest your constant need to project the white australia of the 50's onto the modern place is unbecoming, anyway the figures are available.
The following is a breakdown of the country of origin of Muslims in Australia from 2001:[20]
Australia: 36%
Lebanon: 10%
Turkey: 8.5%
Bosnia-Herzegovina: 4.0%
Afghanistan: 3.5%
Pakistan: 3.2%
Indonesia: 2.9%
Iraq: 2.8%
Bangladesh: 2.7%
Iran: 2.3%
Fiji: 2.0%
There were 281,578 Muslims recorded in this survey; in the 2006 census the population had grown to 340,392.[21]
The distribution by state of the nation's Islamic followers has New South Wales with 50% of the total number of Muslims, followed by Victoria (33%), Western Australia (7%), Queensland (5%), South Australia (3%), ACT (1%) and both Northern Territory and Tasmania sharing 0.3%.
The majority of people who reported Islam as their religion in the 2006 Census were born overseas: 58% (198,400).[21] Of all persons affiliating with Islam in 2006 almost 9% were born in Lebanon and 7% were born in Turkey.[22]
Larger-scale Muslim migration began in 1975 with the migration of Lebanese Muslims, which rapidly increased during the Lebanese Civil War from 22,311 or 0.17% of the Australian population in 1971, to 45,200 or 0.33% in 1976.[12] Lebanese Muslims are still the largest and highest-profile Muslim group in Australia, although Lebanese Christians form a majority of Lebanese Australians, outnumbering their Muslim counterparts at a 6 to 4 ratio.
Lebanese Muslims form the core of Australia's Muslim Arab population, particularly in Sydney where most Arabs in Australia live. Approximately 3.4% of Sydney's population are Muslim. Adherents of the Sunni denomination of Islam are concentrated in the suburb of Lakemba and surrounding areas such as Punchbowl, Wiley Park, Bankstown and Auburn.
in terms of arabs its mostly lebanese, half of which are christian, the rest of the muslims are typically middle class imports from turkey and its only the lebanese that show up in dramas.. mostly because many of them took to "trash living" as well as any bogan white, hence the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots
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Ibrahim
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

noddy wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
noddy wrote:the usual muslim reps got up and said it was unrepresentative and they didnt like the banners either so i expect it to blow over.
Odd that this both demanded and then mocked every time somebody associated with Islam does something.
not odd at all, any time a christian loony group does something stupid the usual mainline christian reps are on tv calming nerves, ditto the extremist green groups and pretty much any other group that wants to maintain secular middle class cred.
Point being that since 9/11 one alternately hears that no "mainstream Muslims" speak out against violence, and when examples are produced they are dismissed as boilerplate at best or outright lies at worst.


if mocking the prophet is an untouchable red line for many muslims its also true to say that getting kids to hold banners asking for beheadings due to insults is an untouchable red line for many secular middle class.

lucky im not either group so feh, its all free speech to me until it turns violent and the violent ones will get chucked into gaol like any other wild animal.. simple really.
In point of fact on some of those engaging in violence will ever see any kind of punishment. I also maintain that it is naive to think that this is all about insults or the infamous movie.



if i was of a certain personality i would suggest your constant need to project the white australia of the 50's onto the modern place is unbecoming, anyway the figures are available.
What must that feel like?
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by noddy »

Ibrahim wrote:
Point being that since 9/11 one alternately hears that no "mainstream Muslims" speak out against violence, and when examples are produced they are dismissed as boilerplate at best or outright lies at worst.
still the same as the christians and the greens actually, the anti's of both of them dismiss it as boilerplate and mumble about boiling frogs too.

in my country we havent had as much pro or anti muslim as the northern hemisphere, the muslims tend to only get as much crap as anyone else does in a multicultural country with competing worldviews and paranoid hyperbolic nobs on all sides.
Ibrahim wrote: In point of fact on some of those engaging in violence will ever see any kind of punishment. I also maintain that it is naive to think that this is all about insults or the infamous movie.
protesting america in an australian context is about nothing except vanity to me, ooh look at me and my self righteous anger, which i know isnt exactly whats going on but thats how its going to be intepreted from a population largely ignorant of the middle east complexities

most people are naive about the middle east and if they are lucky they will remain so :-)

i have mentioned before i wonder if the arabs arent ahead of the western curve sometimes, a breakdown of former empire glory due to hubris and stagnation, deteriorating into squabbling groups of alien incompatible worldviews.. hmm..
if i was of a certain personality i would suggest your constant need to project the white australia of the 50's onto the modern place is unbecoming, anyway the figures are available.
What must that feel like?
obnoxious is fun, until it becomes boring.
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Ammianus
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ammianus »

For delicious comparison's sake:

http://imgur.com/a/Y7oIp


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... ed-islands

http://www.ministryoftofu.com/2012/09/c ... -violence/

Image

Image


“Boycott Japanese Products”, “Paralyze Japanese Economy” , “I Bought the Car First, Before Japan Got Bitchy. From Now On, Boycott Japanese Goods”

Image

A supermarket in Huizhou, Fujian province arranged its toothpastes to look like a tank and put up a sign, “Diaoyu Islands belong to China!”

Image

Image
Employees at a dealership hold up a sign that says WE WILL KILL EVERY JAPANESE PERSON EVEN IF IT MEANS DEATHS FOR OUR OWN; EVEN POVERTY WILL NOT DETER US FROM RECLAIMING THE DIAOYU ISLANDS :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Those pesky signaling mechanisms.....
Ammianus
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ammianus »

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/da ... f3531f5428'
Like the hundreds of adolescents surrounding him, 23-year-old Ibrahim claims to have spent the last three days hurling rocks at — and surviving lethal attacks by — the security forces that have not only “prevented the Islamic population from defending their honor,” but, worse yet, chosen to “align themselves with the American pigs, rather than remain loyal to their own religion.” As the four young men each grab a corner of the cloth and rush off with a flagful of ammunition, they pick up on the chant roaring over the scene, a holdover from the 2011 revolution, mutated to fit the occasion, “The people say anything but the prophet.”

Misguided as their efforts may be — like most protesters at the scene, Ibrahim believes “The Innocence of Muslims” is a Hollywood production that, like any local or international film released in Egypt, and presumably elsewhere, passes through several rounds of censorship and receives official state approval from its own government before seeing the light of day — there is little doubt over the severity of the situation, and its potential fallout. Already, yet another wall has been erected by security forces at the head of the street leading to the embassy in order to keep groups of Egyptians from murdering each other and deepening an international crisis, and the downtown stretch between Tahrir and the US Embassy is back to looking like a war zone, developments which don’t seem to have had any effect in sobering up infuriated protestors.

“What do you mean ‘smart’ course of action?” one protester roars at Egypt Independent’s suggestion. “The film has already been made; it exists. Our only course of action is war, because this was an act of war.”

“This is our prophet, our religion. Or are you not Muslim?” he challenged.

“We want a formal apology from [US President Barack] Obama, we want the filmmakers executed, and we want all copies of the film destroyed,” another protester cut in. “All those tapes must be burned.”
Apparently, not very far. “You try to talk sense to these people, and you’re likely to get hurt,” fumes Tarek Farouk, a 27-year-old and one of the few maintaining a frontline of their own, one that separates the crowds in Tahrir from the ones throwing rocks and chunks of glass and metal over the wall and at security forces. Desperate to end the violence, Farouk and his colleagues have tried pleading with, and physically preventing, people from crossing over to confront the state security forces, but it’s a losing battle.

Behind him, the stream of airborne rocks is endless, young men cheering every time the shattering of glass is heard, riding on each other’s shoulders to make their insults more audible, taking apart the neighborhood around them in the hopes that its broken pieces would serve as ammunition once they run out of rocks.

“What do these people know of the prophet?” sighs Farouk.

To his left, his colleague asks, “What prophet? You think any of these people care about religion?” He turned to Egypt Independent and added, “You’d think these were the most pious people on Earth, but we were here for dawn prayers and we can tell you not a single one of them stopped throwing rocks long enough to pray.”
The crowd erupts shortly afterwards, its attention drawn to the two foreign men being quickly escorted from the scene by a small group of Egyptians. One of the men has had his green t-shirt torn; his left shoulder and part of his chest are exposed. Within seconds, hundreds of protesters have descended upon them, some laughing, others clearly enraged, thumping the foreigners on the head, piling on top of them and trying to wrestle them to the ground while bystanders shout for help and the prevalence of common sense. “You’re beating random foreigners, you dogs!” one woman in a burqa sceams. For several moments, the foreigner men are completely obscured by a flurry of fists and bodies, until enough individuals come to their aid and manage to extract them from the cluster. The small group escapes and is chased out of sight, with those left behind clearly struggling to come to terms with what they had just witnessed. One woman breaks down into tears, men mutter in disbelief, and an adolescent admonishes nobody in particular, shouting, “I know those men — one is Italian, the other is Dutch. They have nothing to do with this, they’re not even Americans.”

“So what if they were?” one older man bursts, before repeating the question again at a louder volume. “Have we all gone crazy?”

An answer can be found at the wall, where Hassan Eid, a protester who claims to have been “suffering” at the scene “for the past 10 days” — despite the fact that the violence began on Tuesday night — continues to bark orders at his rock-throwing comrades.

“People who say this is crazy have no honor, or religion,” he asserts. “What is so crazy about protecting your honor, and protecting what is most sacred in all our lives? This is not crazy. This is a new age, under a new regime. And this is our new way of protesting.”
Much has been said about the middle men and interlocutors who promoted and distributed such films, and of course the various Islamist parties who incited such protests in the first place. Much less has been discussed regarding the nature of those societies which spawned them. If the "supply" is anemic or nonexistent in the first place, then no amount of pushing and prodding will produce anything. But of course, we have the opposite case in Libya, Egypt, Yemen, etc. Namely, a demographic surplus of young, angry men without either a job or much of a hopeful future to speak of. This causes no small amount of frustration and consternation, and a mental compensatory mechanism will kick in for a quite a few of them. Complementary to that is a driving need to prove something to themselves, to demonstrate their prowess and honor for the rest of society to perceive and perhaps appreciate. Or to put it in another way: antagonistic anarchism for anarchism's sake. For the Chinese, it seems to be spastic outbursts of vandalism and trollish poster boards. For the Arab youths, we have on the positive side the overthrow of the Mubarak, Ben Ali, and Saleh regimes, and on the negative side, well............
As mentioned before, thinking retroactively of banning the film to prevent such things from happening is futile, because the underlying bubble of youthful anger and antipathy has been swelling anyways, ever searching (and thirsting !) for a cause to project itself over. If not for the film, some other peripheral issue would served just as well. Of course, that we have the machinations of those Islamists only made things worse...
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by noddy »

thats pretty much how one of our local muslim commentators, Waleed Aly is reading it.
WHERE do I start? Perhaps with the viral image that will come to define this episode: a child who'd be three or four hoisting a sign above his head blaring, ''Behead all those who insult the Prophet''.
Alternatively, I could begin with the observation that the trailer for the anti-Islamic film that ostensibly started this all, Innocence of Muslims, is now a blockbuster, with YouTube hits in the millions thanks largely to the protesters around the world who think nobody should see it.
No. Let's start with the fact so few of the protesters who descended on Sydney's CBD this weekend seem to have seen the film that so offends them. When asked by journalists, they admit this, one even adding she refuses to watch something so offensive. It's almost impressive how cyclical this stupidity is. But it's also instructive. In fact, this is the key to making sense of something so gobsmackingly senseless.
The protesters - at least the ones quoted in news reports - know nothing except how offended they are.
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That, you see, is all that matters. This isn't about a film. It's about an excuse. We know because so much of the weekend's ranting was nakedly gratuitous: ''Our dead are in paradise, your dead are in hell''? Pardon? Which dead? Weren't we talking about a movie?
This is the behaviour of a drunkenly humiliated people: swinging wildly with the hope of landing a blow, any blow.
There's nothing strategic or calculated about this. It doesn't matter that they are the film's most effective publicists.
It doesn't matter that they protest using offensive slogans and signs, while protesting against people's right to offend.
It doesn't matter that they object to insulting people on the basis of their religion, while declaring Christians have no morals. This is only baffling until you realise these protesters are not truly protesting to make a point. The protest is the point.
It feels good. More to the point, it feels powerful. This is why people yell pointlessly or punch walls when frustrated. Outrage and aggression is an intoxicating prospect for the powerless.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Marcus »

WHERE do I start? Perhaps with the viral image that will come to define this episode: a child who'd be three or four hoisting a sign above his head blaring, ''Behead all those who insult the Prophet''.

. . It's almost impressive how cyclical this stupidity is. But it's also instructive. In fact, this is the key to making sense of something so gobsmackingly senseless.

The protesters - at least the ones quoted in news reports - know nothing except how offended they are.

That, you see, is all that matters. This isn't about a film. It's about an excuse. We know because so much of the weekend's ranting was nakedly gratuitous: ''Our dead are in paradise, your dead are in hell''? Pardon? Which dead? Weren't we talking about a movie?

This is the behaviour of a drunkenly humiliated people: swinging wildly with the hope of landing a blow, any blow. . .

It doesn't matter that they protest using offensive slogans and signs, while protesting against people's right to offend.

It doesn't matter that they object to insulting people on the basis of their religion, while declaring Christians have no morals. This is only baffling until you realise these protesters are not truly protesting to make a point. The protest is the point.

It feels good. More to the point, it feels powerful. This is why people yell pointlessly or punch walls when frustrated. Outrage and aggression is an intoxicating prospect for the powerless.
Works for me . . .
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Ibrahim
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

Ammianus wrote: Much has been said about the middle men and interlocutors who promoted and distributed such films, and of course the various Islamist parties who incited such protests in the first place. Much less has been discussed regarding the nature of those societies which spawned them. If the "supply" is anemic or nonexistent in the first place, then no amount of pushing and prodding will produce anything. But of course, we have the opposite case in Libya, Egypt, Yemen, etc. Namely, a demographic surplus of young, angry men without either a job or much of a hopeful future to speak of. This causes no small amount of frustration and consternation, and a mental compensatory mechanism will kick in for a quite a few of them. Complementary to that is a driving need to prove something to themselves, to demonstrate their prowess and honor for the rest of society to perceive and perhaps appreciate. Or to put it in another way: antagonistic anarchism for anarchism's sake. For the Chinese, it seems to be spastic outbursts of vandalism and trollish poster boards. For the Arab youths, we have on the positive side the overthrow of the Mubarak, Ben Ali, and Saleh regimes, and on the negative side, well............
As mentioned before, thinking retroactively of banning the film to prevent such things from happening is futile, because the underlying bubble of youthful anger and antipathy has been swelling anyways, ever searching (and thirsting !) for a cause to project itself over. If not for the film, some other peripheral issue would served just as well. Of course, that we have the machinations of those Islamists only made things worse...
So assuming there is this swell of latent, exploitable anger among "young Muslim men" directed at the US, it is more reasonable to assume that it is caused by decades of support for oppressive regimes and outright murder of civilians by the US government and military? Or just something for bored teens to do on a Friday night?

The underlying assumption of much of the coverage of these protests is that there is no rational justification for anger directed at the US. While I understand the self-serving motivation for Western media outlets to frame the story with way, it doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Small wonder that so many Western pundits mock and deride Edward Said, given how often their commentary conforms to his theory of Orientalism almost point for point.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

noddy wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: In point of fact on some of those engaging in violence will ever see any kind of punishment. I also maintain that it is naive to think that this is all about insults or the infamous movie.
protesting america in an australian context is about nothing except vanity to me, ooh look at me and my self righteous anger, which i know isnt exactly whats going on but thats how its going to be intepreted from a population largely ignorant of the middle east complexities

most people are naive about the middle east and if they are lucky they will remain so
"Vanity, vanity, all is vanity!" That aside, presumably you get international news in Australia? Arab youths in Oz must be as aware of the systematic killing of civilians in several Arab countries - in the case of Yemen in support of a hated despot, in the case of Libya against, in the case of Iraq nobody is sure why - as I am here in the desolate Canadian tundra. It is reasonable for them to have the same antipathy for the US as Arabs anywhere else. The fact that they are better-off economically than their counterparts in e.g. Egypt rather supports my theory that this is an expression of outrage at American practices in general, and not something the kids are up to because they don't have a proper job.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Parodite »

I think the exact mechanics of this is less interesting than how countries whose embassies eand embassy personel are physically attacked and/or threatened at home best respond.
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