The Quran online

[Parodite]

You had no idea how the Quran began when you made your initial false claim,

Not true. As said, last year I did read the first 30 or so pages. That is why I could claim what I did and show the texts that made me claim it.

It is perfectly OK Ibrahim if you don't feel the same way about those texts and/or about this character Allah. People do have different tastes. I read those texts as human products, as poetry from a culture that is completely different from the culture and mindset I live in now. It is totally alien to me. I does not strike any cord of type: "Oh yes, Allah!! My merciful, finally I understand, you make perfect sense!". Or "Wow, now I want to know more!"

[monster_gardener]

With a thanks to Nonc H. who provided the link elsewhere:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

Just to be clear, I didn't post this to encourage polemics. I don't believe most Muslims have actually read the Qu'ran, but live by tradition and what they are told. The true meaning of the Qu'ran is irrelevant to people who deliberately pick out whatever supports their pre-existing belief system, no matter what their orientation.

Thank you VERY Much for your post, Nonc.

I don't believe most Muslims have actually read the Qu'ran,

I could be wrong but My impression is the opposite.

Does anyone here know? Ibrahim? Hans? Anderson?


Hmmmmmmn

FWIW

Every Muslim reads Koran at least once in a lifetime. This makes it 100% of readership.

It is also a fact that not many Muslims understand Arabic language and therefore most of them do not have in-depth understanding with regards to the Message of God Almighty.

It's a very small percentage of Muslims who read it's translation as well for a better understanding.
_____________
We are Commanded to Read Koran everyday, so much as is feasible; with out hampering our daily routines.
Source(s):
a Maverick

a Muslim

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 734AAK6fBd

AIUI only the Koran in the original Classic ARABIC counts........... not translations...........

And AIUI Muslims are encouraged to MEMORIZE the Quran in the original Classical Arabic.......... which may be problematic if you don't speak Classical Arabic............

Christians are encouraged to memorize Bible verses but in their native language*. A few do memorize the whole Bible........

but live by tradition and what they are told. The true meaning of the Qu'ran is irrelevant

Maybe not so entirely.

AIUI the Quran by itself is not as into death & punishment as the Hadiths are..........

Best practical off hand example: 100 lashes for for adultery instead of stoning to death: possibly survivable depending on the instruments & method especially if done on an installment plan

Some Muslims by another name reject the Hadith as made by man and thus not obligatory............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sub ... ernational

There is also the problem of abrogation: if one part of the Koran contradicts another, the later passage is the valid one. That is later :timewise and........the Koran is not normally presented in chronological order so you have to find out which part was later........

In what way is the message scrambled? First, the chapters are published out of order in every standard Quran. Rather than printing them using the chronological order in which they were revealed, the 114 chapters (suras) of the Quran are arranged using a baffling method: They're arranged in order from the longest chapter to the shortest. That's the traditional order.

In addition, each chapter seems randomly ordered. Most chapters are a collection of many different topics, and often one topic ends and an unrelated topic begins abruptly.

When you read a standard Quran straight through like a normal book, the message is disjointed and the story jumps around and seems contradictory. One very important consequence of this curious disorder is that it hides the clear progression from Mohammad's semi-tolerance of non-Muslims to his violent hatred toward them.

The second way the message has been made difficult to decipher is by the principle of abrogation, which means that some later chapters (suras) contain passages that override passages from earlier chapters. Because the chapters are not published in chronological order, this means that hardly anyone who reads the Quran knows which passages are abrogated and which are not.

Out of the 114 chapters, only 43 are not affected by abrogation. The majority of the chapters of the Quran cannot be taken at face value.

The third way the Quran has been put into code is by putting the key somewhere else. Much of the Quran cannot be understood without being familiar with the life of Mohammad (by reading the Sira and the Hadith). These are primarily about Mohammad — what he said and did.

http://www.inquiryintoislam.com/2010/08 ... re-so.html


*English more or less for US Americans which also can be "interesting" if using the poetic but slightly ancient King James Virgin oops I mean Version (KJV)*.............

You have to really "know" your wife to have children Not allowed to wear clothing made of "divers material" ?? For crying out loud......What's wrong with wearing a "wet suit" when doing Scuba diving in cold water.........

[Parodite]

Now make your real closing argument Mr Lawyer. I showed the texts, highlighted in blue, green and RED, that made me claim what I did. Does Allah not warn the reader what will happen to him/her if s/he does not follow his instructions? I.e WRATH?

Maybe the problem is that when somebody threatens me with his/her wrath... I tend to take that person seriously. Especially if that wrath comes from the top dog in the hierarchy that is able to make or break me. Got that? Good.

Then when this Wrath-Threat by the Top-Dog is thrown in my direction.. unfortunately I do start to imagine what that "wrath" could entail. Would I get tickled under my armpits for 40 days 24/7? Dedeases strike me or my family? Lose most of my money in commercial activities?

Well, I'm lost now. Please explain to me what the wrath of Allah entails. Maybe I don't need to worry too much about it.. since "the wrath of Allah" just refers poetically to events in life that are a natural-logical consequence of behaviors Allah warned against not to engage in. I really don't know. It just sounds rather.. awful, painful, terrible..

[monster_gardener]

The point is that it is local cultural beliefs and practices that matter. Religious texts are a prop.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Typhoon.

All cultures pick, choose, and reinterpret their religious texts to justify their actions.

While there is a lot of that: us programming the meme bearing texts to do convenient things such as raiding the infidel, 4 wives AND all the concubines you can support, quick and easy divorce.......... (gotta stop, becoming a sales pitch for Islam ), sometimes easy forgiveness (Christianity), excuses to party and gamble (Hanukkah)

IMHO there is also a lot of the memes ruling/programming us...... often to do very inconvenient things: getting up early for morning prayers (Christian), not turning a light on or off on Saturday/Sabbath, do work you want to get done (Judaism), not swatting/killing that bug that wants to bite us (Buddhism), not eating or drinking during daylight hours during a hot Arabian summer (Islam), not ogling that pretty girl in the bikini etc. (Christian)..........

Chicken vs. Egg maybe..............

[Ibrahim]

Now make your real closing argument Mr Lawyer. I showed the texts, highlighted in blue, green and RED, that made me claim what I did. Does Allah not warn the reader what will happen to him/her if s/he does not follow his instructions? I.e WRATH?

This is not relevant to your initial false claim, as already described. You are altering your position and stretching your interpretation to cover for your initial ignorance. This is obvious.

[Parodite]

For some reason I'm reminded of Hitchens or Pat Condell, who profess to be opposed to religion generally, but spent/spend most of their time trashing one religion in particular, along with cultural practices and politics unrelated to the religion.

Oh but Pat Condell does comment on more than one religion or brand. Of course each in the quantity and intensity that they are deservent of in his opinion. Islamic cultures on average lag way behind the rest in terms being able to accept criticism, mockery of their holy religion and prophet. So it is obvious more of his attention goes to Islam.

To his credit he also seriously mocks certain atheists;

IolHgMf_nbw

[Parodite]

Now make your real closing argument Mr Lawyer. I showed the texts, highlighted in blue, green and RED, that made me claim what I did. Does Allah not warn the reader what will happen to him/her if s/he does not follow his instructions? I.e WRATH?

This is not relevant to your initial false claim, as already described. You are altering your position and stretching your interpretation to cover for your initial ignorance. This is obvious.

You can still answer the question: what does the wrath of Allah entail? I will submit to the possibility I read too much into it.

[monster_gardener]

The point is that it is local cultural beliefs and practices that matter. Religious texts are a prop.

In this instance all the text is saying is that this religion is the right religion, and that some people won't recognize that, and that those people are wrong and will lose out in the long run. It's hard to think of any religion doesn't make this claim. The Bible is repetitive on the point, I've read many a long-winded description of torturous hells in Buddhist sutras, etc.

For some reason I'm reminded of Hitchens or Pat Condell, who profess to be opposed to religion generally, but spent/spend most of their time trashing one religion in particular, along with cultural practices and politics unrelated to the religion.



But the original discredited claim that Rhap made is clearly false in light of the text, if the only purpose to the thread was to defend it then this thread is an obvious failure.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

For some reason I'm reminded of Hitchens or Pat Condell, who profess to be opposed to religion generally, but spent/spend most of their time trashing one religion in particular, along with cultural practices and politics unrelated to the religion.

My impression is that Hitchens was as against Christianity as Islam but in his later life gave more attention to Islam because there have be more and more spectacular Muslims Behaving Badly as Muslims for cause of Islam as opposed to Christians Behaving Badly for the sake of Christianity.............

Not that any religion met his approval.............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Is_Not_Great

[Ibrahim]

For some reason I'm reminded of Hitchens or Pat Condell, who profess to be opposed to religion generally, but spent/spend most of their time trashing one religion in particular, along with cultural practices and politics unrelated to the religion.

Oh but Pat Condell does comment on more than one religion or brand.

I already said so, and it is intentionally dishonest of you to imply otherwise.

Of course each in the quantity and intensity that they are deservent of in his opinion. Islamic cultures on average lag way behind the rest in terms being able to accept criticism, mockery of their holy religion and prophet. So it is obvious more of his attention goes to Islam.

This is a subjective justification for bigotry, not anything resembling a fact.

[Ibrahim]

Now make your real closing argument Mr Lawyer. I showed the texts, highlighted in blue, green and RED, that made me claim what I did. Does Allah not warn the reader what will happen to him/her if s/he does not follow his instructions? I.e WRATH?

This is not relevant to your initial false claim, as already described. You are altering your position and stretching your interpretation to cover for your initial ignorance. This is obvious.

You can still answer the question: what does the wrath of Allah entail? I will submit to the possibility I read too much into it.

This has nothing to do with your original false claim, or your dishonest defense of that false claim. To try and hurry the conversation along past your exposed falsehoods and deliberate lies under the pretense of being civil is rather comical.

[Parodite]

Now make your real closing argument Mr Lawyer. I showed the texts, highlighted in blue, green and RED, that made me claim what I did. Does Allah not warn the reader what will happen to him/her if s/he does not follow his instructions? I.e WRATH?

This is not relevant to your initial false claim, as already described. You are altering your position and stretching your interpretation to cover for your initial ignorance. This is obvious.

You can still answer the question: what does the wrath of Allah entail? I will submit to the possibility I read too much into it.

This has nothing to do with your original false claim, or your dishonest defense of that false claim. To try and hurry the conversation along past your exposed falsehoods and deliberate lies under the pretense of being civil is rather comical.

Ok you lost. I gave you the quotes you asked for that made me say what I did. I added the explanation that the constant reminder of Allahs anger towards those that go astray and wil receive his wrath... made me say what I did. Since you had nothing of value to say afterwards but empty ad hominims and childish claims of proof, I offered you a way out by saying that maybe I was reading too much wrath in Allah's wrath mentioned in the Quran, so to speak. Still unable to produce anything meaningful, fair and honest... with only more slander that is not backed up by any facts or explanations that have the bite of real proof... it is four out, game over for Ibi.

[Ibrahim]

Now make your real closing argument Mr Lawyer. I showed the texts, highlighted in blue, green and RED, that made me claim what I did. Does Allah not warn the reader what will happen to him/her if s/he does not follow his instructions? I.e WRATH?

This is not relevant to your initial false claim, as already described. You are altering your position and stretching your interpretation to cover for your initial ignorance. This is obvious.

You can still answer the question: what does the wrath of Allah entail? I will submit to the possibility I read too much into it.

This has nothing to do with your original false claim, or your dishonest defense of that false claim. To try and hurry the conversation along past your exposed falsehoods and deliberate lies under the pretense of being civil is rather comical.

Ok you lost.

No. You lost as soon as you made your initial initial false claim:

it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

which is not supported by the text. Then you dug yourself into deeper hole by making additional false statements rather than admit your error. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

[Hans Bulvai]

With a thanks to Nonc H. who provided the link elsewhere:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

Just to be clear, I didn't post this to encourage polemics. I don't believe most Muslims have actually read the Qu'ran, but live by tradition and what they are told. The true meaning of the Qu'ran is irrelevant to people who deliberately pick out whatever supports their pre-existing belief system, no matter what their orientation.

Thank you VERY Much for your post, Nonc.

I don't believe most Muslims have actually read the Qu'ran,

I could be wrong but My impression is the opposite.

Does anyone here know? Ibrahim? Hans? Anderson?

Not sure but the Quran must be read multiple times over a long period for it to be fully understood.

[Ibrahim]

Not sure but the Quran must be read multiple times over a long period for it to be fully understood.

True, but it should be added that this isn't just a mystical/religious thing. Any sizable text requires careful study to fully understand, whether its the Quran, The Tain, Proust, or Shakespeare's Roman plays, people spend entire academic careers studying a single text.

[Parodite]

it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

which is not supported by the text.

It is. Liar.

To receive the wrath of Allah, have your eye sight and hearing been taken away, be punished and in great misery...being reminded over and over again that the Almighty Allah is talking.. who can make and break you..IS a hysteric expostion of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

I understand your claim that one needs a lot of learned academics to talk it all straight and put in the right perspective. But you are fooling yourself, as usual. To be able to read and understand it as an obscene form of poetry is enough. As anyone able to read a fairytale and process the basic features of a described character in the script.

What you need academics for, is concoct "the true meaning" of the text. Or make Kim Yon Allah look a bit less.. wrathly-prickly. Maybe you also need to see such an academic.

[Nonc Hilaire]

With a thanks to Nonc H. who provided the link elsewhere:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

Just to be clear, I didn't post this to encourage polemics. I don't believe most Muslims have actually read the Qu'ran, but live by tradition and what they are told. The true meaning of the Qu'ran is irrelevant to people who deliberately pick out whatever supports their pre-existing belief system, no matter what their orientation.

Thank you VERY Much for your post, Nonc.

I don't believe most Muslims have actually read the Qu'ran,

I could be wrong but My impression is the opposite.

Does anyone here know? Ibrahim? Hans? Anderson?

Not sure but the Quran must be read multiple times over a long period for it to be fully understood.

And I imagine one would have to read it with the intention of trying to understand God. In any literature, but especially literature which purports to be divine revelation, the reader's background and purpose largely determines the readers response. Look for violence, and you will find it. Look for beauty, and you will find that. Reading for the purpose of permitting divine revelation is completely different from both of those.

And I stick by the fact that most Muslims have never read the Qu'ran. Just look at the low literacy rates in primarily Muslim countries - it isn't possible. Comparing the Qu'ran and the Bible is generally inappropriate, but in primarily Christian countries with high literacy rates the number of Christians who have read the Bible is very low.

[Parodite]

Not sure but the Quran must be read multiple times over a long period for it to be fully understood.

And I imagine one would have to read it with the intention of trying to understand God. In any literature, but especially literature which purports to be divine revelation, the reader's background and purpose largely determines the readers response. Look for violence, and you will find it. Look for beauty, and you will find that. Reading for the purpose of permitting divine revelation is completely different from both of those.

Which is why one can't take the Quran or Bible as the literal word of God, but as a human interface through which one may indeed find things revealed or of quality otherwise obscured. This includes the way God is described and given a voice as well IMO.

Human interface and human intervention cannot be underestimated here. There may be things revealed in writing and compiled (by humans) into a specific holy collection... that does not mean things are not revealed in other writings as well. Or not in writings, but in the world around you and what presents itself online to your senses and how it all connects into consciousness.

People's obsession with written revelation - where one can indeed find all the beauty and dirt that you also find in the street - included Gods character as described and his qualities given oft being all too human - goes at the expense of discovering revelation in day to day life. The claim that Gold can only be found in a book, tends to render the rest of life into kind of a darker place where not much "revelation" is to be expected. Misused and abused, holy books can devaluate life.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Written revelation is important, but every religious tradition I am aware of requires a personal guide who can also transmit the traditional meanings of the writing and tailor it to the seeker.

[Sparky]

And I stick by the fact that most Muslims have never read the Qu'ran. Just look at the low literacy rates in primarily Muslim countries - it isn't possible. Comparing the Qu'ran and the Bible is generally inappropriate, but in primarily Christian countries with high literacy rates the number of Christians who have read the Bible is very low.

Yes. The literacy problem is exacerbated by the fact that according to conventional Islamic theology, the Koran can only be the Koran in Arabic.

[AzariLoveIran]

4dVaSwYbkTc


What a crook


.

[Ibrahim]

And I stick by the fact that most Muslims have never read the Qu'ran. Just look at the low literacy rates in primarily Muslim countries - it isn't possible. Comparing the Qu'ran and the Bible is generally inappropriate, but in primarily Christian countries with high literacy rates the number of Christians who have read the Bible is very low.

Yes. The literacy problem is exacerbated by the fact that according to conventional Islamic theology, the Koran can only be the Koran in Arabic.

It's fair to say that the majority Muslims have not read the Quran in its entirety, in any language. I cynically believe this to be true of most religious traditions. Or of high school English classes and Shakespeare.

[Ibrahim]

it begins with a hysteric exposition of all the horrors that will befall on those that do not do what Allah orders them to do and turn their backs on Him.

which is not supported by the text.

It is. Liar.

Obviously it doesn't, as all can plainly see. Likewise, Moby Dick does not "begin" with "hysterical descriptions" of the "horrors" of the chowder shop.

There's no debate here, you're just wrong.

[Parodite]

Hello, let me introduce Myself. I am Kim Yon Allah the King of Everything. Worhip me, obey, me, believe me.. and receive flowers every morning. Turn around, go astray, mock me, disblieve me.. and receive my wrath, die in the fire I prepared for you. Fear me, because I can do and undo at will.

I now more and more understand why you fell for this character, refuse to look in the mirror and only produce hot air at this point. I hope you find the right academics to redesign this hysteric Godhead and give him a shave.. a nail polish perhaps?

Or as the Christian designers did: just give him a son to soften him up. But wait, even better, add a daughter too!

Abba Allah, with little Ibi and little Pasta.



Allah just desperately needs cutification. Not academics!

[Ibrahim]

Umad?

[Mr. Perfect]

Religious Candy and Carrots in the Quran.

What's really wrong with religious candy and carrots?