Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

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Alexis
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Re: Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

Post by Alexis »

Ibrahim wrote:India needed nuclear arms to offset China and Pakistan, France really only built them as a status thing, which was very French of them.
I suggest to study history of the 1936-1940 period, with special emphasis on May-June 1940, if you want to understand the French thinking on nuclear weapons.
The space between Northern France and Poland is good tank land. Always have been. Always will be.
Moreover, at the nuclear age, any country can be brought to its knees within less than one hour, with a few well-targeted nukes.

Remembering American and British help in liberating us is one thing. Believing that US help would always be forthcoming, even at the risk of destruction of US mainland, is another matter entirely.
But in all cases the point of the weaponry is letting people know you have it. So I don't think Iran would have held a nuclear test in North Korea and made it a secret. Nor are the scientists they have working on the project North Korean (as far as we know).
Israel chose for political reasons to keep its nuclear arsenal an open secret. Yet they probably tested at least one nuclear weapon in South Indian Ocean 1979.

Iran may have chosen to not yet openly divulge its nuclear status (e.g. waiting for a sufficient number of weapons to be produced, or for another reason). Which doesn't diminish the interest of a real test to validate and refine engineering assumptions, and validate the capability.

The only nuclear-armed country which never perfomed a test was South Africa. They were using a very inefficient gun-barrel design for their uranium bomb, needing over 50 kg of enriched uranium per weapon, because that design was simple enough that they could be absolutely sure it would work even without testing. But then, South Africans built only six bombs, and they had ample supply of uranium.

All other nuclear-armed countries performed at least one test.

Iran, just like them, is probably aiming at more than a 6-bombs arsenal, and is constrained by availability of fissile material. So a test makes a lot of engineering sense.
Do you preemptively attack a country that says threatening things for domestic consumption?
A lot of stupid things indeed are said for domestic consumption.

The point is that these things are said in a quite specific context (program for accession to nuclear status), and are quite extraordinary by themselves. Some Arab governments have said such things in the 1950s / 1960s, but then that was precisely a time of wars between Israel and coalitions of its Arab neighbours... and the latter had no nuclear weapon.

It's not my family and my children who are at risk in Israel. Nor I suppose are yours. I think it probable that Iranian government outbursts at Israel will end up being seen as no more than outburts... But then, it's quite easy for me to think that way.

An Israeli may well be worried by the chance that a somewhat "demented" and unstable Iranian leadership, if pressed by difficult circumstances (and such circumstances can always happen), might react less rationally than say US and Soviet leaderships at the time of the 1962 Cuba missile crisis.


I've never heard much serious talk of Iranian territorial expansion from anybody but Azari. I don't think this is a real issue, given the difficulties Iran would have controlling anything they tried to take.


Such attempts would probably be self-defeating in the end. The issue is the time between a national leadership indulging in expansionist illusions and the "in the end": room for much disorder & much damage.
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Re: Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

Post by Ibrahim »

Alexis wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:India needed nuclear arms to offset China and Pakistan, France really only built them as a status thing, which was very French of them.
I suggest to study history of the 1936-1940 period, with special emphasis on May-June 1940, if you want to understand the French thinking on nuclear weapons.
The contexts are so different I don't know how you could even invoke this comparison.


The space between Northern France and Poland is good tank land. Always have been. Always will be.
Good thing NATO already had enough nuclear weapons to destroy the entire world, rendering the Soviet tank divisions aimed at Western Europe, and the additional French nuclear deterrent, irrelevant.




But in all cases the point of the weaponry is letting people know you have it. So I don't think Iran would have held a nuclear test in North Korea and made it a secret. Nor are the scientists they have working on the project North Korean (as far as we know).
Israel chose for political reasons to keep its nuclear arsenal an open secret.
I just said that.

Iran, just like them, is probably aiming at more than a 6-bombs arsenal, and is constrained by availability of fissile material. So a test makes a lot of engineering sense.
A test in North Korea is a little far-fetched to me. Not to mention that nobody can agree how close Iran is to a bomb, and claiming that they've already tested one benefits are certain group that has been claiming Iran is six months from a bomb for ten years.


Do you preemptively attack a country that says threatening things for domestic consumption?
A lot of stupid things indeed are said for domestic consumption.

The point is that these things are said in a quite specific context
My point is that its a question of whether or not you attack a country for what they say or might do.


I've never heard much serious talk of Iranian territorial expansion from anybody but Azari. I don't think this is a real issue, given the difficulties Iran would have controlling anything they tried to take.


Such attempts would probably be self-defeating in the end. The issue is the time between a national leadership indulging in expansionist illusions and the "in the end": room for much disorder & much damage.
I don't believe the Iranian leadership are indulging in them either.
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Parodite
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Re: Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

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What complicates the theory that Iran is just doing anti-Israeli rhetoric for internal consumption, is that fact they do use Syria and Hezbollah (and now Hamas as well) as proxies by training and weaponizing them with the stated purpose of liberating Palestine from the Zionist cancer and install pro-Iranian Islamic governments in Israel and Lebanon. So it all is a bit more than rhetoric. One just has to listen to Azari how obsessed the Iranian clerics and juntas are with Rhubarb. There is also something of level Jerry Springer going on here.. in terms of rivalry and jealousy.

Israelis though kind of keep very cool under it. My wife, a born Israeli, doesn't believe there will be war with Iran at all and that one day the clerics will be gone, Persia and Israel resuming their historically good relations. Wars at/over their borders are more likely to re-occur. Iran will be forced to go out and stay out by the biggest bully: the USA. I think this also is the deal between Israel and USA.
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

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The reason for secret tests quite obviously is to try to avoid embarrassment of a failure and to catch your opponent unawares if possible. Say if you wanted to sneak attack somebody.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

AzariLoveIran wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:.
Things changed after 9-11. Learn the hard way, learn the easy way, doesn't matter to me.
.

3 in 5 Americans believe 9/11 inside Job .. 7 in 8 wordwide believe 9/11 inside Job

yes,

cuts both way "Learn the hard way, learn the easy way, doesn't matter to me."

.
Well all polling I've seen shows that nearly all US believe that are Democrats. As for the rest of the world, not sure how many of them are even literate.

I'm afraid that there are dark times ahead for our Iran Azari. I also sort of fantasized this would all Iran's way, but it is clear to me now that Ahmedinidini boxed himself in. Bibi is confident he has the targets, Obama is not saying no, just when. He said nuclear Iran is not allowable. Israel whacked Saddam, Syria nuke joints, imagine they will have similar success. Will be the end of Ahmedinidini I think.
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Re: Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

Post by AzariLoveIran »

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Ibrahim
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Re: Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

Post by Ibrahim »

Oh Madonna weighed in? Case closed.
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Using your arguement, why shouldn't the Basques get a Nuke..

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Endovelico wrote:Iranians would be crazy not to try and build atomic weapons. A country which is regularly threatened with being bombed must do all it can to defend itself. Once it has the bomb, the threats will fade away.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Endo.

Then how do you feel about Basque Separatist getting nuclear weapons?

What would the fallout :twisted: :( of that be for the Iberian Peninsula and Europe?

I seem to remember something about the Basques getting bombed.........


Image
Thank you Very Much for your post, Endo.

Not much of a fan of Charlie Brown. He trusts that nasty Lucy too much........ Lets her trick him time after time. And then he pays her for her usually useless advice........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_van_P ... rlie_Brown

Second try........... Less humor........

Using your standards for why Iran should have a nuke, why shouldn't the Basque Separatists also acquire nukes for their struggle against Spanish domination?

Maybe because the fallout might reach Lisboa if they do?

The Basques consider themselves a nation...... more ancient than Spain or Portugal..........

The Basques were been bombed for real at Guernica, not just threats...........

As proliferation continues, I would not be surprised too much if they do eventually get nukes............

The Basques of ETA seem to have quite a liking for bombs.........

Been paying the Spanish back for quite sometime.....

Could get much worse with nukes.........

Tell me whether or not your argument for Iranian nukes is valid for Basque nukes and if not, why?

BTW, I am against both the Iranians and the Basques getting nukes.......

My argument is that every time another nation gets nukes the number of relationships which may lead to nuclear war increases by at least a factor....

IMVHO Not good for the survival of civilization and maybe the human race itself........
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Re: Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

Post by AzariLoveIran »

Parodite wrote:.
What complicates the theory that Iran is just doing anti-Israeli rhetoric for internal consumption, is that fact they do use Syria and Hezbollah (and now Hamas as well) as proxies by training and weaponizing them with the stated purpose of liberating Palestine from the Zionist cancer and install pro-Iranian Islamic governments in Israel and Lebanon. So it all is a bit more than rhetoric. One just has to listen to Azari how obsessed the Iranian clerics and juntas are with Rhubarb. There is also something of level Jerry Springer going on here.. in terms of rivalry and jealousy.
.
Have said many times, on the record, Iran, Iranians, Iranian population, neither anti Jew nor anti Israel

for attesting the above, read : Cohen of NYT

.
Perhaps I have a bias toward facts over words, but I say the reality of Iranian civility toward Jews tells us more about Iran — its sophistication and culture — than all the inflammatory rhetoric.

That may be because I’m a Jew and have seldom been treated with such consistent warmth as in Iran.
.
but

To push west out of ME, Iran needs the Arab mass, Muslim mass (central Asia) .. and that is where Israel comes into play

Parodite wrote:.
Israelis though kind of keep very cool under it. My wife, a born Israeli, doesn't believe there will be war with Iran at all and that one day the clerics will be gone, Persia and Israel resuming their historically good relations. Wars at/over their borders are more likely to re-occur. Iran will be forced to go out and stay out by the biggest bully: the USA. I think this also is the deal between Israel and USA.
.
you wife is right

This not between Israel and Iran, not even between Israel and ME people

ME is in the process of getting rid of colonialism shackles .. to get rid of western cronies .. Arab Sheiks

Israel should keep aside, not get involved

Once west retreats, Middle Eastern people will accommodate Jews for a Jewish home

Your wife is right, Iranians friend and no foe of Jewish people


.
AzariLoveIran

Re: Using your arguement, why shouldn't the Basques get a Nu

Post by AzariLoveIran »

monster_gardener wrote:.

Using your standards for why Iran should have a nuke, why shouldn't the Basque Separatists also acquire nukes for their struggle against Spanish domination?

Maybe because the fallout might reach Lisbon if they do?

The Basques consider themselves a nation...... more ancient than Spain or Portugal..........

The Basques were been bombed for real at Guernica, not just threats...........

As proliferation continues, I would not be surprised too much if they do eventually get nukes............

The Basques of ETA seem to have quite a liking for bombs.........

Been paying the Spanish back for quite sometime.....

Could get much worse with nukes .........

Tell me whether or not your argument for Iranian nukes is valid for Basque nukes and if not, why?

BTW, I am against both the Iranians and the Basques getting nukes.......

My argument is that every time another nation gets nukes the number of relationships which may lead to nuclear war increases by at least a factor....

.

Monster ,

Basque, Catalonia, Northern Island, Porto Rico, Corsica, Süd Tyrol, Gibralta and and and separation,

are

family disputes

not same as Chinese (Americans) would establish military bases in Mexico (Persian Golf) and threaten America (Iran) with nuclear weapon

you, America and west, are a foreign force in ME .. same as Chinese would be in Mexico next to San Diego

and

Monster,

can you give me just one reason why America that dropped 2 nuke on civilian deserves 1000s of nukes and Iran that has not attacked anybody last 500 yrs and has suffered 1 million causality by American proxy Saddam and still has 30,000 victims with burnt lung in hospitals does not deserve a few nuke ..

.. keepin in mind, Iran, last 30 yrs, is threatened, day in & day out, with being bombed including nuked ?

Monster, if there is one nation in this world that deserves to have nuclear weapon, that nation is Iran

you have the mike


.
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Re: Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Iran being threatened with nukes because it is pursuing nukes. If it yields, peace comes to the region, far as west is concerned, at this point.

Iran nationalized nice helpful US oil companies, dominoes still falling...
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Alexis
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Re: Using your arguement, why shouldn't the Basques get a Nu

Post by Alexis »

monster_gardener wrote:Using your standards for why Iran should have a nuke, why shouldn't the Basque Separatists also acquire nukes for their struggle against Spanish domination?
(...)
The Basques consider themselves a nation...... more ancient than Spain or Portugal..........
(...)
Tell me whether or not your argument for Iranian nukes is valid for Basque nukes and if not, why?
Short list of differences between Basque separatists and Iran:
- No internationally recognized Basque State exists presently. Iran presently exists as an internationally recognized State.
- No Basque State has existed for many centuries. By contrast, Iran has existed continuously for the last three millenia.
- No majority of Basques want independence from Spain. They are satisfied with present arrangement of extended autonomy in the framework of the Spanish State. By contrast, Iranians want to continue existing as an independent nation.
BTW, I am against both the Iranians and the Basques getting nukes.......

My argument is that every time another nation gets nukes the number of relationships which may lead to nuclear war increases by at least a factor....
Two unescapable facts are standing:
- Any nation has the sovereign right to develop weaponry for its defense, as it sees fit by sovereign decision. That right can only be limited through Treaty (NPT), provided a nation has signed to be part of that Treaty. The NPT in any case provides for right to unilateral denounciation of participation.
- If every nation on Earth had nuclear weapons, given the existence of revolutions & failed States, given different standards of security, nuclear wars would be bound to happen, each one of them costing at least few millions lives.

The present internationally accepted solution is a compromise: most nations forfeit their right to develop nuclear weapons, in exchange for guarantees of restraint by nuclear-armed nations. It cannot be more than an imperfect compromise (some would say an awkward one), that is bound to be tested from time to time:
- when nations not signatories to the NPT develop nuclear deterrents: Israel, India, Pakistan, and perform public nuclear tests (the two latter)
- when nations signatories to the NPT denounce their participation and perform public nuclear tests: North Korea, potentially Iran in the near future

Such tests need not lead to any catastrophe: development of Israeli, Indian, Pakistan and even North Korean deterrents did not result in any disaster.
:arrow: Such tests however are delicate times, because they put stress in a compromise that is part of the basis of civilized life between nations on this planet, and because they create fears.

When nuclear nations Nos. 6 through 9 created their deterrents, they demonstrated at least a measure, and sometimes much more than a measure, of restraint. None of them called for partial ethnic cleansing of any nation. None of them expressed will at hegemony over two thirds of the planet's oil reserves. Even North Korean propaganda insisted only on the need for South Koreans to get rid of Americans, which is not the same thing as calling for ethnic cleansing or aiming at world energy hegemony!

By contrast, potential nuclear nation No. 10 (Iran):
1.----- has as Supreme Leader a man (Ali Khamenei) who is on record calling for a partial ethnic cleansing (that those Israeli Jews whose ancestors were Europeans rather than living in the Middle-East would be forced out of their country) and calling an internationally recognized State a "cancerous tumour" that should disappear. In 2008, that man was correcting Iranian President Ahmadinejad because of the latter's position that although Iran was enemy of the Zionist State, it was friend of the Israeli people. Khamenei rebuked the comparatively moderate Ahmadinejad and set the record straight that Iran was not merely enemy of the Israeli regime, but of the Israeli people itself
The comments came amid a controversy in Iran over remarks attributed to an Iranian official close to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Esfandiar Rahim Mashaei, a vice president in charge of tourism, was quoted in a July interview as saying that Iranians were friends with the Israeli people, despite the conflict between the governments.
"Today, Iran is friends with the American and Israeli people," he said, according to the semi-official Fars News Agency. "No nation in the world is our enemy."
Hard-liners close to the government pounced on Mashaei's remarks. But Thursday night Ahmadinejad appeared to back up Mashaei, voicing sympathy for the Israeli people, even as he predicted Israel's demise.
"The Iranian nation never recognized Israel and will never ever recognize it," he said at a news conference. "But we feel pity for those who have been deceived or smuggled into Israel to be oppressed citizens in Israel."
Ahmadinejad is scheduled to arrive in New York within days for the opening session of the United Nations General Assembly, which probably will take up the issue of Iran's nuclear program.
Khamenei left little doubt about Iran's position on relations with Israel, saying he was raising the issue "to spell an end to any debates" on it.
"It is incorrect, irrational, pointless and nonsense to say that we are friends of Israeli people," said Khamenei, who delivers prayer sermons only on special occasions.
2.----- has a regime whose founder (Ruhollah Khomeiny) called for the overthrow of all Arab Gulf countries' regimes (a half-dozen internationally recognized States!), with intent to establish Iranian hegemony over them. That hegemony would (coincidentally...) lead to Iran getting control direct or indirect over two-thirds of global oil reserves, with all the attendant commending influence on all economies on this planet.

It would be very easy for Iran to smoothe its accession to nuclear power status:
- Position like "We recognize the State of Israel, we refuse its illegitimate occupation of Arab lands and reserve the right to help militarily Palestinians struggling against that occupation. If Israel discontinued that occupation and signed a permanent territorial settlement with Palestinian representatives, we would have no further issue of contention with the Israeli people"
- Position like "We question on religious grounds the legitimacy of any monarchy and have particular concern for the individual rights of Shia Muslims. At the same time, we recognize of course the right of Gulf Arabic countries to live as Arabs independently from us"
:arrow: If Iran had such "hardline but not bonkers" position, there would be no more qualms to its nuclear program than to India's or Pakistan's... that is, no more than a few protests "for the form", and certainly no military threat whatsoever.

But the position of the Iranian regime is very much different.

What the consequences will be, I don't know:
- Israeli-only military intervention against Iranian nuclear program is at the outer limit of feasibility
- American military intervention looks improbable
- Military intervention by another nation (both France and Russia would have the capability) looks even more improbable
- At the same time, Iran being deterred from building nuclear weapons by anything less than military intervention looks very improbable
- At the same time, America and Israel accepting Iranian nuclear armament looks difficult to imagine

This looks like a version of "Irresistible force meets unmoveable objects": nothing seems ready to give, and yet something will have to give.
No idea what it will be.
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Alexis
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Re: Using your arguement, why shouldn't the Basques get a Nu

Post by Alexis »

AzariLoveIran wrote:can you give me just one reason why America that dropped 2 nuke on civilian deserves 1000s of nukes and Iran that has not attacked anybody last 500 yrs and has suffered 1 million causality by American proxy Saddam and still has 30,000 victims with burnt lung in hospitals does not deserve a few nuke ..
A side remark first: it ain't nothing to do with "deserving" it. It has to do with getting it.
On this, however, Iran is proving that it can get it.

As for answer to your question: please see my post just above.
Again, it would be fairly easy for Iran to get its accession to nuclear weaponry internationally accepted with little more than pro forma protests, like India got its nuclearization accepted. But the Iranian government is behaving very differently from India or even Pakistan and North Korea.
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Post by monster_gardener »

AzariLoveIran wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:.

Using your standards for why Iran should have a nuke, why shouldn't the Basque Separatists also acquire nukes for their struggle against Spanish domination?

Maybe because the fallout might reach Lisbon if they do?

The Basques consider themselves a nation...... more ancient than Spain or Portugal..........

The Basques were been bombed for real at Guernica, not just threats...........

As proliferation continues, I would not be surprised too much if they do eventually get nukes............

The Basques of ETA seem to have quite a liking for bombs.........

Been paying the Spanish back for quite sometime.....

Could get much worse with nukes .........

Tell me whether or not your argument for Iranian nukes is valid for Basque nukes and if not, why?

BTW, I am against both the Iranians and the Basques getting nukes.......

My argument is that every time another nation gets nukes the number of relationships which may lead to nuclear war increases by at least a factor....

.

Monster ,

Basque, Catalonia, Northern Island, Porto Rico, Corsica, Süd Tyrol, Gibralta and and and separation,

are

family disputes

not same as Chinese (Americans) would establish military bases in Mexico (Persian Golf) and threaten America (Iran) with nuclear weapon

you, America and west, are a foreign force in ME .. same as Chinese would be in Mexico next to San Diego

and

Monster,

can you give me just one reason why America that dropped 2 nuke on civilian deserves 1000s of nukes and Iran that has not attacked anybody last 500 yrs and has suffered 1 million causality by American proxy Saddam and still has 30,000 victims with burnt lung in hospitals does not deserve a few nuke ..

.. keepin in mind, Iran, last 30 yrs, is threatened, day in & day out, with being bombed including nuked ?

Monster, if there is one nation in this world that deserves to have nuclear weapon, that nation is Iran

you have the mike


.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

Thank you for the mike.

Basque, Catalonia, Northern Island, Porto Rico, Corsica, Süd Tyrol, Gibralta and and and separation,

are

family disputes
The Basque language is no brother to Spanish..... Not even Indo-European.........

Said to be so difficult that the Devil took ten years to learn one word :wink:

But a fool like me was able to learn a little from a Basque in Madrid......

But have forgotten for the moment.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_lan ... sification

And disputes between brothers and alleged brothers are often the nastiest........


can you give me just one reason why America that dropped 2 nuke on civilian deserves 1000s of nukes and Iran that has not attacked anybody last 500 yrs and has suffered 1 million causality by American proxy Saddam and still has 30,000 victims with burnt lung in hospitals does not deserve a few nuke ..
I could say religious fanatics running the government......... Islamic equivalent of Gary North as President..........

BUT is not a matter of deserving........... It is a matter of surviving.........

What I would like to see is Nations with Nukes using them to power Space Ships to get humanity off of this insane asylum planet......

Even defend it against Dinosaur killer asteroids and comets............

Also giving some Nukes to a UN Space Agency so that other nations with out nukes can colonize space too to preserve human genetic diversity and cultural memes........

Genetic and Cultural Drift can be a bitch..........

Need to have lots of independent nations/associations doing this to prevent a single group form using kinetic energy weapons to tyrannize humanity......

Would like to see a Persian Space Nuke program devoted to doing this...........

Could be good excuse and make US and others get off our lazy space butts......... and do something to save humanity.....

Except that IRANIAN mad mullahs have run mouth too much........... Satan, Cancer, Rain Down Fire*


I think that at this point, Iran is going to get attacked and likely nuked as is likely to happen to Israel too with fallout for the rest of us/the world.......

I hope I am wrong............

*per Ibrahim.......
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
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Re: Using your arguement, why shouldn't the Basques get a Nu

Post by Ibrahim »

Alexis wrote: But the Iranian government is behaving very differently from India or even Pakistan and North Korea.
They are probably less menacing than North Korea. Indian and Pakistan rhetoric was as strong as Iranian, but directed at one another so of little interest to Israel or most of the West. It's the disproportionate American interest in Israeli security that makes Iran a global issue rather than a minor regional one.
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IMVHO Salted Nukes/Cobalt Bombs are a Global

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Alexis wrote: But the Iranian government is behaving very differently from India or even Pakistan and North Korea.
They are probably less menacing than North Korea. Indian and Pakistan rhetoric was as strong as Iranian, but directed at one another so of little interest to Israel or most of the West. It's the disproportionate American interest in Israeli security that makes Iran a global issue rather than a minor regional one.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.
It's the disproportionate American interest in Israeli security that makes Iran a global issue rather than a minor regional one
Perhaps partially true... US interest is high...........

But when salted nukes/Cobalt bombs might be in play, the issue is IMVHO is global or at least hemispherical..... :(
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
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Re: IMVHO Salted Nukes/Cobalt Bombs are a Global

Post by Parodite »

It's the disproportionate American interest in Israeli security that makes Iran a global issue rather than a minor regional one
I hate to sound Spenglerian, but since the Jewish people are important and significant to the nature and history of the Euro-American West, the attention it gets is not surprising, nor "disproportionate". To call it disproportionate reveals either ignorence, wishful thinking (Israel should matter less to the USA) or both.
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Re: IMVHO Salted Nukes/Cobalt Bombs are a Global

Post by AzariLoveIran »

Parodite wrote:.
It's the disproportionate American interest in Israeli security that makes Iran a global issue rather than a minor regional one
.
I hate to sound Spenglerian, but since the Jewish people are important and significant to the nature and history of the Euro-American West, the attention it gets is not surprising, nor "disproportionate". To call it disproportionate reveals either ignorence, wishful thinking (Israel should matter less to the USA) or both.
.

Rhapsy ,

this continuation of Spenglerian (Pasta & Charlestonian rubbish) of Jew & Nobel Price rhapsody .. highlighted in Spengler (or maybe Pasta) stipulating reading Talmud leads to winning Nobel Price

at that time, explained to David & Pasta, not Talmud , but German science and and lead to those Noble prices .. Jews wer pushed into university when German blue blood noble were busy in Church

but

not anymore

now

Indian, Chinese , Iranians etc .. all in universities

meaning

.. Jewish people importance and significance to the nature and history of the Euro-American West, the attention it gets will, slowly slowly, diminish

now

. . importance and significance to the nature and history of the entire world is more in the Chinese and Indian and Brazilian and Iranian hands

already happening

.
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Re: IMVHO Salted Nukes/Cobalt Bombs are a Global

Post by Parodite »

Azi.. you not capice. Not talking about braggish Nobel stuff... Try again. The Jewish people are, in an ambiguous bi-polar but profound way, part and parcel of our factual history and cultural memory. You are not receptive to it, nor even fully aware of it (which is okay, nothing wrong with it) because you are not of this fiber and are full of other memories and fibers, of which you have given witness on a daily basis on this board; The Lost and to be recovered Glory of Persia.

Your only problem is you piss waaaaay over the fence of what marks your legitimate territory. Proud Pomegranates don't need to do that me thinks; they remain centered and balanced, know when to speak, be quiet and mind their own business as they navigate in wisdom. You talk like somebody who lost track of his roots and is in fact in great uncertainty about his identity. True and healthy Pomegranates don't need compare dick with Israel (strong identity) and USA (strong muscle). Your identification with this fence pisser Ahmadinejad speaks volumes. There is nothing Persian about him; i.e. as you idealizing it. You just fabricate imaginary scenarios and hypotheses, where the original Persian Goddess is restored again in power, getting the respect and love she is craving for. If only Israel would... and if only the USA went... If only. Not.

Try and warm hands and heart, pump up ego at the glow of nuclear power and in muscle flexing opposition to the Zionist cancer... won't work, believeth me. It is like the little orphan baby monkey in a lab, grabbing and holding on in fear to that piece of dead mamma fur for comfort and protection, but tied to a cold metal frame with no soul.
Deep down I'm very superficial
AzariLoveIran

Re: IMVHO Salted Nukes/Cobalt Bombs are a Global

Post by AzariLoveIran »

Parodite wrote:.

Azi.. you not capice. Not talking about braggish Nobel stuff... Try again. The Jewish people are, in an ambiguous bi-polar but profound way, part and parcel of our factual history and cultural memory. You are not receptive to it, nor even fully aware of it (which is okay, nothing wrong with it) because you are not of this fiber and are full of other memories and fibers, of which you have given witness on a daily basis on this board; The Lost and to be recovered Glory of Persia.

Your only problem is you piss waaaaay over the fence of what marks your legitimate territory. Proud Pomegranates don't need to do that me thinks; they remain centered and balanced, know when to speak, be quiet and mind their own business as they navigate in wisdom. You talk like somebody who lost track of his roots and is in fact in great uncertainty about his identity. True and healthy Pomegranates don't need compare dick with Israel (strong identity) and USA (strong muscle). Your identification with this fence pisser Ahmadinejad speaks volumes. There is nothing Persian about him; i.e. as you idealizing it. You just fabricate imaginary scenarios and hypotheses, where the original Persian Goddess is restored again in power, getting the respect and love she is craving for. If only Israel would... and if only the USA went... If only. Not.

Try and warm hands and heart, pump up ego at the glow of nuclear power and in muscle flexing opposition to the Zionist cancer... won't work, believeth me. It is like the little orphan baby monkey in a lab, grabbing and holding on in fear to that piece of dead mamma fur for comfort and protection, but tied to a cold metal frame with no soul.

.

Rhapsy ,

Getting tired answering long posts saying the same .. running out of energy

Went through this subject with Zionist wolf pack in FT, David, Pasta, Charleston and that Green guy from Baghdad

so

I make it short

Is any giants of European Music .. Frédéric Chopin, Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Ludwig van Beethoven, Bach, Joseph Haydn, Felix Mendelssohn, Mozart, 2 x Strauss, Verdi, Puccini, Wagner and and and Jewish ? ?

NO

Is any giants of European literature .. Goethe, Schiller, Lessing and all the rest am sure you know Jewish ? ?

NO


Is any giants of European philosophy .. Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Heraclitus, Xenophanes, Nietzsche, Hegel, Kant, and and and .. political philosophy, ethics, metaphysics, ontology, logic, biology, rhetoric, and aesthetics .. and all the rest am sure you know, Jewish ? ?

NO

Any world shattering art creator : Renoir, Monet, Manet, Picasso, Gauguin, Rembrandt, Van Gogh, Gaudí , Goya, Toulouse-Lautrec, da Vinci, Raphael and and, Jewish ? ?

NO

Meaning, European Jews have not contributed much to European civilization

NO, Rhapsy, NO .. Jewish people are NOT, in an ambiguous bi-polar but profound way, part and parcel of European factual history and cultural memory.

Jews did not show on European radar until mid 1800 .. at that time Europe had already taken shape by Kant and Goethe and Schiller and and and

Yes, you are right, Jewish scholars appeared after 1850 .. Carl Max, Hegel, Freud, Kafka, Klimt, Einstein, Fermi and and and

But that episode, except science, quite controversial, very much so

Kafka refereed to as `Alptraum` .. and Freud sort of weird, wanting to have sex with your mom stuff .. for sure no Kant or Hegel or Plato

Communist, socialist, revolutionary (Trotzkist and Marxist), anarchist, financial destructionist (Rothschild financing Brits WWI and pretty much many other wars and genocides) and and and

any giants of world civilization, human history, Europe (or elsewhere) Jewish ?

YES

MARX

set back humanity for 100 yrs

Not even Oppenheimer/Bohr/Fermi can be viewed as positive .. without that Teller gang (a POS), Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not have happened

Communism, coming from a sick mind, ruined poor Russia, eastern Europe and beyond

and now Zionism .. Israel fiasco .. rather a headache .. bete noire

now , you judge who no capice


.
Ibrahim
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Re: IMVHO Salted Nukes/Cobalt Bombs are a Global

Post by Ibrahim »

Parodite wrote:
It's the disproportionate American interest in Israeli security that makes Iran a global issue rather than a minor regional one
I hate to sound Spenglerian, but since the Jewish people are important and significant to the nature and history of the Euro-American West, the attention it gets is not surprising, nor "disproportionate". To call it disproportionate reveals either ignorence, wishful thinking (Israel should matter less to the USA) or both.
You are introducing nothing new or useful here, this was a poor excuse to stick in your oar. Quite obviously I was referring to the U.S. cultural obsession with Israel. That is why so much attention and money is spent on such a small nation with no economic or strategic benefits.

But you are also wrong to speak of a larger "Euro-American West" sharing this obsession. Only the US and Canada back Israeli actions at the UN and elsewhere, and only the latter under certain governments. The voting during the recent Palestinian bid at the UN is instructive.
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monster_gardener
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Debate point to you.. Congrats... Why shouldn't Basques get

Post by monster_gardener »

Alexis wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:Using your standards for why Iran should have a nuke, why shouldn't the Basque Separatists also acquire nukes for their struggle against Spanish domination?
(...)
The Basques consider themselves a nation...... more ancient than Spain or Portugal..........
(...)
Tell me whether or not your argument for Iranian nukes is valid for Basque nukes and if not, why?
Short list of differences between Basque separatists and Iran:
- No internationally recognized Basque State exists presently. Iran presently exists as an internationally recognized State.
- No Basque State has existed for many centuries. By contrast, Iran has existed continuously for the last three millenia.
- No majority of Basques want independence from Spain. They are satisfied with present arrangement of extended autonomy in the framework of the Spanish State. By contrast, Iranians want to continue existing as an independent nation.
BTW, I am against both the Iranians and the Basques getting nukes.......

My argument is that every time another nation gets nukes the number of relationships which may lead to nuclear war increases by at least a factor....
Two unescapable facts are standing:
- Any nation has the sovereign right to develop weaponry for its defense, as it sees fit by sovereign decision. That right can only be limited through Treaty (NPT), provided a nation has signed to be part of that Treaty. The NPT in any case provides for right to unilateral denounciation of participation.
- If every nation on Earth had nuclear weapons, given the existence of revolutions & failed States, given different standards of security, nuclear wars would be bound to happen, each one of them costing at least few millions lives.

The present internationally accepted solution is a compromise: most nations forfeit their right to develop nuclear weapons, in exchange for guarantees of restraint by nuclear-armed nations. It cannot be more than an imperfect compromise (some would say an awkward one), that is bound to be tested from time to time:
- when nations not signatories to the NPT develop nuclear deterrents: Israel, India, Pakistan, and perform public nuclear tests (the two latter)
- when nations signatories to the NPT denounce their participation and perform public nuclear tests: North Korea, potentially Iran in the near future

Such tests need not lead to any catastrophe: development of Israeli, Indian, Pakistan and even North Korean deterrents did not result in any disaster.
:arrow: Such tests however are delicate times, because they put stress in a compromise that is part of the basis of civilized life between nations on this planet, and because they create fears.

When nuclear nations Nos. 6 through 9 created their deterrents, they demonstrated at least a measure, and sometimes much more than a measure, of restraint. None of them called for partial ethnic cleansing of any nation. None of them expressed will at hegemony over two thirds of the planet's oil reserves. Even North Korean propaganda insisted only on the need for South Koreans to get rid of Americans, which is not the same thing as calling for ethnic cleansing or aiming at world energy hegemony!

By contrast, potential nuclear nation No. 10 (Iran):
1.----- has as Supreme Leader a man (Ali Khamenei) who is on record calling for a partial ethnic cleansing (that those Israeli Jews whose ancestors were Europeans rather than living in the Middle-East would be forced out of their country) and calling an internationally recognized State a "cancerous tumour" that should disappear. In 2008, that man was correcting Iranian President Ahmadinejad because of the latter's position that although Iran was enemy of the Zionist State, it was friend of the Israeli people. Khamenei rebuked the comparatively moderate Ahmadinejad and set the record straight that Iran was not merely enemy of the Israeli regime, but of the Israeli people itself
The comments came amid a controversy in Iran over remarks attributed to an Iranian official close to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Esfandiar Rahim Mashaei, a vice president in charge of tourism, was quoted in a July interview as saying that Iranians were friends with the Israeli people, despite the conflict between the governments.
"Today, Iran is friends with the American and Israeli people," he said, according to the semi-official Fars News Agency. "No nation in the world is our enemy."
Hard-liners close to the government pounced on Mashaei's remarks. But Thursday night Ahmadinejad appeared to back up Mashaei, voicing sympathy for the Israeli people, even as he predicted Israel's demise.
"The Iranian nation never recognized Israel and will never ever recognize it," he said at a news conference. "But we feel pity for those who have been deceived or smuggled into Israel to be oppressed citizens in Israel."
Ahmadinejad is scheduled to arrive in New York within days for the opening session of the United Nations General Assembly, which probably will take up the issue of Iran's nuclear program.
Khamenei left little doubt about Iran's position on relations with Israel, saying he was raising the issue "to spell an end to any debates" on it.
"It is incorrect, irrational, pointless and nonsense to say that we are friends of Israeli people," said Khamenei, who delivers prayer sermons only on special occasions.
2.----- has a regime whose founder (Ruhollah Khomeiny) called for the overthrow of all Arab Gulf countries' regimes (a half-dozen internationally recognized States!), with intent to establish Iranian hegemony over them. That hegemony would (coincidentally...) lead to Iran getting control direct or indirect over two-thirds of global oil reserves, with all the attendant commending influence on all economies on this planet.

It would be very easy for Iran to smoothe its accession to nuclear power status:
- Position like "We recognize the State of Israel, we refuse its illegitimate occupation of Arab lands and reserve the right to help militarily Palestinians struggling against that occupation. If Israel discontinued that occupation and signed a permanent territorial settlement with Palestinian representatives, we would have no further issue of contention with the Israeli people"
- Position like "We question on religious grounds the legitimacy of any monarchy and have particular concern for the individual rights of Shia Muslims. At the same time, we recognize of course the right of Gulf Arabic countries to live as Arabs independently from us"
:arrow: If Iran had such "hardline but not bonkers" position, there would be no more qualms to its nuclear program than to India's or Pakistan's... that is, no more than a few protests "for the form", and certainly no military threat whatsoever.

But the position of the Iranian regime is very much different.

What the consequences will be, I don't know:
- Israeli-only military intervention against Iranian nuclear program is at the outer limit of feasibility
- American military intervention looks improbable
- Military intervention by another nation (both France and Russia would have the capability) looks even more improbable
- At the same time, Iran being deterred from building nuclear weapons by anything less than military intervention looks very improbable
- At the same time, America and Israel accepting Iranian nuclear armament looks difficult to imagine

This looks like a version of "Irresistible force meets unmoveable objects": nothing seems ready to give, and yet something will have to give.
No idea what it will be.
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Alexis.

monster_gardener wrote:Using your standards for why Iran should have a nuke, why shouldn't the Basque Separatists also acquire nukes for their struggle against Spanish domination?
(...)
The Basques consider themselves a nation...... more ancient than Spain or Portugal..........
(...)
Tell me whether or not your argument for Iranian nukes is valid for Basque nukes and if not, why?
Short list of differences between Basque separatists and Iran:
- No internationally recognized Basque State exists presently. Iran presently exists as an internationally recognized State.
- No Basque State has existed for many centuries. By contrast, Iran has existed continuously for the last three millenia.
- No majority of Basques want independence from Spain. They are satisfied with present arrangement of extended autonomy in the framework of the Spanish State. By contrast, Iranians want to continue existing as an independent nation.

Good answers....... Will concede the argument to you for Basques under current conditions.....

Was trying bring this issue into Endo's "backyard" ;) :twisted: after Endo IMO cavalierly advocated Nukes for the Iranians IMVHO because of his dislike for Israel vs. the Palestinians.........the same way Azari does when he proposes Chinese military bases in Mexico for US/uz.......... It's a little different when the fallout or troops are in your backyard.......... :shock:

As said, I am against nukes for both the Basques (ETA with a nuke :shock: :evil:) and Iran (Nuke war with Israel, ME and maybe more likely effectively uninhabitable.....

Good post otherwise too...........

Thanks again.
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Monster Gardener......
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Azrael
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Re: Did Iran test a nuclear bomb in North Korea?

Post by Azrael »

Did General Ríos Montt test a nuclear bomb in Nevada?

Did Omar Bongo test a nuclear bomb in Moruroa?

Anyone can speculate . . .
cultivate a white rose
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