Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

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Heracleum Persicum
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Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

The leaders of 15 Caribbean countries are calling for reparations from European countries relating to the slave trade

The former colonies are demanding an apology for the slave trade as well as a repatriation program that would allow those of the "over 10 million Africans" who were "stolen from their homes and forcefully transported to the Caribbean as the enslaved chattel and property of Europeans" to return to Africa if they choose -- particularly those belonging to the Rastafari movement.

If the Europeans are unwilling to negotiate, the Caricom states are threatening to take legal action. Rather than seeking compensation for the treatment of slaves 200 years ago, Day, 57, says, "we want to address the problems of today that result from that era." He says little investment was made at the time in education and that the countries remain far behind even today. He argues that Europe has a "moral, political and legal liability" to help in addressing a history they created.

..

We're not saying that we're trying to get compensation for the horrible treatment of slaves 200 years ago. We're saying there is a problem today that results from that era. It's a current issue, not a historic one. The Caribbean nations would far prefer to enter into a proper dialogue, they don't want to go to court. They want ongoing good relations with Europe, and they hope that the Europeans will see the sense in what is being proposed. We are suggesting a conference between the Western nations and leaders of Caricom member states in the summer to examine all these issues.
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Maybe Caribs & Euroz Should Sue Middle East...

Post by monster_gardener »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

The leaders of 15 Caribbean countries are calling for reparations from European countries relating to the slave trade

The former colonies are demanding an apology for the slave trade as well as a repatriation program that would allow those of the "over 10 million Africans" who were "stolen from their homes and forcefully transported to the Caribbean as the enslaved chattel and property of Europeans" to return to Africa if they choose -- particularly those belonging to the Rastafari movement.

If the Europeans are unwilling to negotiate, the Caricom states are threatening to take legal action. Rather than seeking compensation for the treatment of slaves 200 years ago, Day, 57, says, "we want to address the problems of today that result from that era." He says little investment was made at the time in education and that the countries remain far behind even today. He argues that Europe has a "moral, political and legal liability" to help in addressing a history they created.

..

We're not saying that we're trying to get compensation for the horrible treatment of slaves 200 years ago. We're saying there is a problem today that results from that era. It's a current issue, not a historic one. The Caribbean nations would far prefer to enter into a proper dialogue, they don't want to go to court. They want ongoing good relations with Europe, and they hope that the Europeans will see the sense in what is being proposed. We are suggesting a conference between the Western nations and leaders of Caricom member states in the summer to examine all these issues.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

The Caribs :twisted: should also sue the Arabs/Middle Easterners/Muslims who oversaw much of the slave trade.....

Maybe the West Euroz need to to sue the North Africans & Turks for the Barbary Slave Trade.........

And the East Euroz sue the Turks & Tatars for their slaving operation..........

Which was based in Crimea :twisted: among other places.......
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Re: Maybe Caribs & Euroz Should Sue Middle East...

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

monster_gardener wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

The leaders of 15 Caribbean countries are calling for reparations from European countries relating to the slave trade

The former colonies are demanding an apology for the slave trade as well as a repatriation program that would allow those of the "over 10 million Africans" who were "stolen from their homes and forcefully transported to the Caribbean as the enslaved chattel and property of Europeans" to return to Africa if they choose -- particularly those belonging to the Rastafari movement.

If the Europeans are unwilling to negotiate, the Caricom states are threatening to take legal action. Rather than seeking compensation for the treatment of slaves 200 years ago, Day, 57, says, "we want to address the problems of today that result from that era." He says little investment was made at the time in education and that the countries remain far behind even today. He argues that Europe has a "moral, political and legal liability" to help in addressing a history they created.

..

We're not saying that we're trying to get compensation for the horrible treatment of slaves 200 years ago. We're saying there is a problem today that results from that era. It's a current issue, not a historic one. The Caribbean nations would far prefer to enter into a proper dialogue, they don't want to go to court. They want ongoing good relations with Europe, and they hope that the Europeans will see the sense in what is being proposed. We are suggesting a conference between the Western nations and leaders of Caricom member states in the summer to examine all these issues.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

The Caribs :twisted: should also sue the Arabs/Middle Easterners/Muslims who oversaw much of the slave trade.....

Maybe the West Euroz need to to sue the North Africans & Turks for the Barbary Slave Trade.........

And the East Euroz sue the Turks & Tatars for their slaving operation..........

Which was based in Crimea :twisted: among other places.......
seconded

Brits, Americans, Arabs, Turks should pay reparations for slave trade (in that order)
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Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Apollonius »

It seems like really odd lawsuit considering that without the slave trade almost none of the black people living in the Caribbean would be there today. Remember that many captives sent to the New World were criminals and the death penalty was the usual punishment for even minor crimes in Africa in the early modern era. Most slaves were captured in wars between various African groups. Before the slave trade (originally centred on Egypt and North Africa and only significant to the New World from the seventeenth century), opponents in wars, particularly the men, were almost always put to death, often including excrutiating torture. Many were eaten. So their linneages would by now almost certainly be completely extinct.


Also, all Caribbean nations, not even excepting Haiti, have a higher standard of living than the African nations where these descendents of slaves came from.


Remember, most European immigrants to the New World also did not come willingly (large numbers of prisoners, indentured servants, persecuted minorities in Europe driven to flee the continent, and economic deprivations of various kinds). Remember too, that at least in the eighteenth, nineteenth, and twentieth centuries, most immigrants were women and children, who typically had no say about whether to stay or leave, nor were they paid for their labour.


If these cases do go forward, we can expect lawsuits against all Islamic countries from all countries that had any kind of relations with them, especially hostile relations, which would be almost all of them. Actually, we should see reparations being demanded from a large represenation of African nations, quite a few of which still have the same ruling elites who sold the slaves in the first place! Going further with this thought: Most Caribbean nations have ruling elites that treat their fellow citizens little or no better, often worse, than their colonial predecessors.


But as far as that goes, past injustices of this nature are general. I expect every single person in the whole world, all seven billion of us, have ample material on which to base a claim for reparations.



Heracleum Persecum wrote:Brits, Americans, Arabs, Turks should pay reparations for slave trade (in that order)

If you are going by numbers, the order should be:

Africans (originators of the international slave trade; all African polities at a level more sophisticated than hunting-gathering bands were slave societies-- in some 90% of the population were slaves), Arabs (dominant players for 1,000 years), Portuguese (responsible for just short of half of the transatlantic trade), British, Spanish, French, and Dutch. The Turks, originally often slaves themselves, were almost certainly as heavily involved as any of these. The numbers are difficult to ascertain with confidence, but Pomegranates were the chief middle-men in the Indian slave trave, which was extensive.


We don't have good numbers for Native American tribes, but any who were more advanced than a foraging existence dealt in slaves. The numbers most often quoted for the Aztecs was about 30% of the population, most of the rest being "free" peasants. I have never seen good statistics for China or other parts of East Asia, but in large parts of India and southeast Asia, a majority of the population were slaves in pre-modern times.
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Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Apollonius »

Not directly relevant, but I'll insert it here for some historical perspective:




What medieval Europe did with its teenagers - William Kremer, BBC News, 22 March 2014
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26289459

Today, there's often a perception that Asian children are given a hard time by their parents. But a few hundred years ago northern Europe took a particularly harsh line, sending children away to live and work in someone else's home. Not surprisingly, the children didn't always like it.


Around the year 1500, an assistant to the Venetian ambassador to England was struck by the strange attitude to parenting that he had encountered on his travels.

He wrote to his masters in Venice that the English kept their children at home "till the age of seven or nine at the utmost" but then "put them out, both males and females, to hard service in the houses of other people, binding them generally for another seven or nine years". The unfortunate children were sent away regardless of their class, "for everyone, however rich he may be, sends away his children into the houses of others, whilst he, in return, receives those of strangers into his own".

It was for the children's own good, he was told - but he suspected the English preferred having other people's children in the household because they could feed them less and work them harder.

His remarks shine a light on a system of child-rearing that operated across northern Europe in the medieval and early modern period. Many parents of all classes sent their children away from home to work as servants or apprentices - only a small minority went into the church or to university. They were not quite so young as the Venetian author suggests, though. According to Barbara Hanawalt at Ohio State University, the aristocracy did occasionally dispatch their offspring at the age of seven, but most parents waved goodbye to them at about 14.

Model letters and diaries in medieval schoolbooks indicate that leaving home was traumatic. "For all that was to me a pleasure when I was a child, from three years old to 10… while I was under my father and mother's keeping, be turned now to torments and pain," complains one boy in a letter given to pupils to translate into Latin. Illiterate servants had no means of communicating with their parents, and the difficulties of travel meant that even if children were only sent 20 miles (32 km) away they could feel completely isolated.

So why did this seemingly cruel system evolve? For the poor, there was an obvious financial incentive to rid the household of a mouth to feed. But parents did believe they were helping their children by sending them away, and the better off would save up to buy an apprenticeship. These typically lasted seven years, but they could go on for a decade. The longer the term, the cheaper it was - a sign that the Venetian visitor was correct to conclude that adolescents were a useful source of cheap labour for their masters. In 1350, the Black Death had reduced Europe's population by roughly half, so hired labour was expensive. The drop in the population, on the other hand, meant that food was cheap - so live-in labour made sense.

"There was a sense that your parents can teach you certain things, but you can learn other things and different things and more things if you get experience of being trained by someone else," says Jeremy Goldberg from the University of York.

Perhaps it was also a way for parents to get rid of unruly teenagers. According to social historian Shulamith Shahar, it was thought easier for strangers to raise children - a belief that had some currency even in parts of Italy. The 14th Century Florentine merchant Paolo of Certaldo advised: "If you have a son who does nothing good… deliver him at once into the hands of a merchant who will send him to another country. Or send him yourself to one of your close friends... Nothing else can be done. While he remains with you, he will not mend his ways."

Many adolescents were contractually obliged to behave. In 1396, a contract between a young apprentice named Thomas and a Northampton brazier called John Hyndlee was witnessed by the mayor. Hyndlee took on the formal role of guardian and promised to give Thomas food, teach him his craft and not punish him too severely for mistakes. For his part, Thomas promised not to leave without permission, steal, gamble, visit prostitutes or marry. If he broke the contract, the term of his apprenticeship would be doubled to 14 years.

A decade of celibacy was too much for many young men, and apprentices got a reputation for frequenting taverns and indulging in licentious behaviour. Perkyn, the protagonist of Chaucer's Cook's Tale, is an apprentice who is cast out after stealing from his master - he moves in with his friend and a prostitute. In 1517, the Mercers' guild complained that many of their apprentices "have greatly mysordered theymself", spending their masters' money on "harlotes… dyce, cardes and other unthrifty games".

In parts of Germany, Switzerland and Scandinavia, a level of sexual contact between men and women in their late teens and early twenties was sanctioned. Although these traditions - known as "bundling" and "night courting" - were only described in the 19th Century, historians believe they date back to the Middle Ages. "The girl stays at home and a male of her age comes and meets her," says Colin Heywood from the University of Nottingham. "He's allowed to stay the night with her. He can even get into bed with her. But neither of them are allowed to take their clothes off - they're not allowed to do much beyond a bit of petting." Variants on the tradition required men to sleep on top of the bed coverings or the other side of a wooden board that was placed down the centre of the bed to separate the youngsters. It was not expected that this would necessarily lead to betrothal or marriage.

To some extent, young people policed their own sexuality. "If a girl gets a reputation of being rather too easy, then she will find something unpleasant left outside her house so that the whole village knows that she has a bad reputation," says Heywood. Young people also expressed their opinion of the moral conduct of elders, in traditions known as charivari or "rough music". If they disapproved of a marriage - perhaps because the husband beat his wife or was hen-pecked, or there was a big disparity in ages - the couple would be publicly shamed. A gang would parade around carrying effigies of their victims, banging pots and pans, blowing trumpets and possibly pulling the fur of cats to make them shriek (the German word is Katzenmusik).

In France, Germany and Switzerland young people banded together in abbayes de jeunesse - "abbeys of misrule" - electing a "King of Youth" each year. "They came to the fore at a time like carnival, when the whole world was turned upside down," says Heywood. Unsurprisingly, things sometimes got out of hand. Philippe Aries describes how in Avignon the young people literally held the town to ransom on carnival day, since they "had the privilege of thrashing Jews and whores unless a ransom was paid".



In London, the different guilds divided into tribes and engaged in violent disputes. In 1339, fishmongers were involved in a series of major street battles with goldsmiths. But ironically, the apprentices with the worst reputation for violence belonged to the legal profession. These boys of the Bench had independent means and did not live under the watch of their masters. In the 15th and 16th Centuries, apprentice riots in London became more common, with the mob targeting foreigners including the Flemish and Lombards. On May Day in 1517, the call to riot was shouted out - "Prentices and clubs!" - and a night of looting and violence followed that shocked Tudor England.

By this time, the city was swelling with apprentices, and the adult population was finding them more difficult to control, says Barbara Hanawalt. As early death from infectious disease became rarer the apprentices faced a long wait to take over from their masters. "You've got quite a number of young men who are in apprenticeships who have got no hope of getting a workshop and a business of their own," says Jeremy Goldberg. "You've got numbers of somewhat disillusioned and disenfranchised young men, who may be predisposed to challenging authority, because they have nothing invested in it."

How different were the young men and women of the Middle Ages from today's adolescents? It's hard to judge from the available information, says Goldberg.

But many parents of 21st Century teenagers will nod their heads in recognition at St Bede's Eighth Century youths, who were "lean (even though they eat heartily), swift-footed, bold, irritable and active". They might also shed a tear over a rare collection of letters from the 16th Century, written by members of the Behaim family of Nuremberg and documented by Stephen Ozment. Michael Behaim was apprenticed to a merchant in Milan at the age of 12. In the 1520s, he wrote to his mother complaining that he wasn't being taught anything about trade or markets but was being made to sweep the floor. Perhaps more troubling for his parents, he also wrote about his fears of catching the plague.

Another Behaim boy towards the end of the 16th Century wrote to his parents from school. Fourteen-year-old Friedrich moaned about the food, asked for goods to be sent to keep up appearances with his peers, and wondered who would do his laundry. His mother sent three shirts in a sack, with the warning that "they may still be a bit damp so you should hang them over a window for a while". Full of good advice, like mothers today, she added: "Use the sack for your dirty washing."



Beaten into submission

Some insight into how such a boy or youth might be trained comes from the [14th Century] French hunting treatise La Chasse by Gaston count of Foix... A lord's huntsman is advised to choose a boy servant as young as seven or eight: one who is physically active and keen sighted. This boy should be beaten until he had a proper dread of failing to carry out his master's orders.

Source: "Medieval Children" by Nicholas Orme
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Re: Maybe Caribs & Euroz Should Sue Middle East...

Post by monster_gardener »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

The leaders of 15 Caribbean countries are calling for reparations from European countries relating to the slave trade

The former colonies are demanding an apology for the slave trade as well as a repatriation program that would allow those of the "over 10 million Africans" who were "stolen from their homes and forcefully transported to the Caribbean as the enslaved chattel and property of Europeans" to return to Africa if they choose -- particularly those belonging to the Rastafari movement.

If the Europeans are unwilling to negotiate, the Caricom states are threatening to take legal action. Rather than seeking compensation for the treatment of slaves 200 years ago, Day, 57, says, "we want to address the problems of today that result from that era." He says little investment was made at the time in education and that the countries remain far behind even today. He argues that Europe has a "moral, political and legal liability" to help in addressing a history they created.

..

We're not saying that we're trying to get compensation for the horrible treatment of slaves 200 years ago. We're saying there is a problem today that results from that era. It's a current issue, not a historic one. The Caribbean nations would far prefer to enter into a proper dialogue, they don't want to go to court. They want ongoing good relations with Europe, and they hope that the Europeans will see the sense in what is being proposed. We are suggesting a conference between the Western nations and leaders of Caricom member states in the summer to examine all these issues.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

The Caribs :twisted: should also sue the Arabs/Middle Easterners/Muslims who oversaw much of the slave trade.....

Maybe the West Euroz need to to sue the North Africans & Turks for the Barbary Slave Trade.........

And the East Euroz sue the Turks & Tatars for their slaving operation..........

Which was based in Crimea :twisted: among other places.......
seconded
Brits, Americans, Arabs, Turks should pay reparations for slave trade (in that order)
Thank You VERY Much for your post.

Thank you VERY Much for the Second but notice that I said 'Maybe'........

Brits, Americans, Arabs, Turks should pay reparations for slave trade (in that order)
Nope..... See below......
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More Important Things to Do.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Apollonius wrote:It seems like really odd lawsuit considering that without the slave trade almost none of the black people living in the Caribbean would be there today. Remember that many captives sent to the New World were criminals and the death penalty was the usual punishment for even minor crimes in Africa in the early modern era. Most slaves were captured in wars between various African groups. Before the slave trade (originally centred on Egypt and North Africa and only significant to the New World from the seventeenth century), opponents in wars, particularly the men, were almost always put to death, often including excrutiating torture. Many were eaten. So their linneages would by now almost certainly be completely extinct.


Also, all Caribbean nations, not even excepting Haiti, have a higher standard of living than the African nations where these descendents of slaves came from.


Remember, most European immigrants to the New World also did not come willingly (large numbers of prisoners, indentured servants, persecuted minorities in Europe driven to flee the continent, and economic deprivations of various kinds). Remember too, that at least in the eighteenth, nineteenth, and twentieth centuries, most immigrants were women and children, who typically had no say about whether to stay or leave, nor were they paid for their labour.


If these cases do go forward, we can expect lawsuits against all Islamic countries from all countries that had any kind of relations with them, especially hostile relations, which would be almost all of them. Actually, we should see reparations being demanded from a large represenation of African nations, quite a few of which still have the same ruling elites who sold the slaves in the first place! Going further with this thought: Most Caribbean nations have ruling elites that treat their fellow citizens little or no better, often worse, than their colonial predecessors.


But as far as that goes, past injustices of this nature are general. I expect every single person in the whole world, all seven billion of us, have ample material on which to base a claim for reparations.



Heracleum Persecum wrote:Brits, Americans, Arabs, Turks should pay reparations for slave trade (in that order)

If you are going by numbers, the order should be:

Africans (originators of the international slave trade; all African polities at a level more sophisticated than hunting-gathering bands were slave societies-- in some 90% of the population were slaves), Arabs (dominant players for 1,000 years), Portuguese (responsible for just short of half of the transatlantic trade), British, Spanish, French, and Dutch. The Turks, originally often slaves themselves, were almost certainly as heavily involved as any of these. The numbers are difficult to ascertain with confidence, but Pomegranates were the chief middle-men in the Indian slave trave, which was extensive.


We don't have good numbers for Native American tribes, but any who were more advanced than a foraging existence dealt in slaves. The numbers most often quoted for the Aztecs was about 30% of the population, most of the rest being "free" peasants. I have never seen good statistics for China or other parts of East Asia, but in large parts of India and southeast Asia, a majority of the population were slaves in pre-modern times.
Thank You VERY MUCH for your excellent post, Apollonius.........

Good points.......

IMHO let anyone who is personally a former slave of an American/Arab/European/Turk/whatever sue the Master/Mistress's A$$ ;) off......

If they can.........

In lawsuits often victims are lucky to get pennies on the dollar of what was taken .......

While lawyers and administrators take the bulk of what is recovered.....


You might extend the right to sue to sons and daughters of former slaves but beyond that........

Too late.........

More important things to do.....

Like getting off planet before we destroy ourselves with WMD :roll: or Mean Green Mother Nature does it with Space Rocks or something else.... :shock:

Perhaps the Caribbeans should sue to make sure some of them are included in Sustainable Outer Space Colonies........
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Uche Americanus
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Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Uche Americanus »

Hi Apollonius,
I hope life has been good to you? I felt the need to correct some of the erroneous views you expressed regarding the traditional African system of servitude prior to the introduction of Arab and western form of slavery. I think you made a mistake that is common with westerners and others, to conflate the two and treat them as the same. The African form of indentured servitude was not permanent and those in its service were not considered to be personal properties. There were family albeit with lower status and one that only lasted as long as their servile engagement lasted or alternately, until they could by luck or cunning gain favorable status in theair new home. It was never as you painted it like a narrative conjured out of the Heart of Darkness.

It is also not true that Africans were constantly engaged in wars with each other and also for slaves. The typical African communities were mostly small then and often unable to wage wars against each other except over disputes that were quickly contained and often involving farmlands. Cannibalism was practiced but their practices were not widespread nor was it seen or considered a standard diet. Where they were practiced, it was mostly for rituals in pagan worships and when done to captive combatants it was to capture their spirits and control that spirit from haunting its killer. There was also the issue of it being used to psychologically intimidate the enemy. Cannibalism never had wide followings in Africa despite how the opposite was depicted in 19th century writings about the continent.

The states that introduced industrial, cruel and dehumanizing slavery to the hinterland were those on the coasts who had contact with western slave traders and on the Tran Saharan trade route that brought in the Arab slave traders. The influence of these two foreign sources, their vital encouragement and active arming of compromised allied kingdoms that expanded the war for slavery in Africa.

There were lots of Africans taken into slavery that constituted the spiritual and intellectual elites of their defeated kingdoms. Some of the contributions of these Africans in slave holding communities in Virginia, Georgia and elsewhere are documented. There were not mostly thieves, vagabonds and ruffians as you noted. The charge that they are is I think recent.

Lastly, I'm still trying to understand what you intended when you wrote something to the effect that carribbeans have a higher standard of living than those they left behind in Africa? Are you suggesting that the tragedy of slavery and its attendant effects is compensated for or minimized by their higher income gap?
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Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Uche Americanus wrote:.

Hi Apollonius,

I hope life has been good to you? I felt the need to correct some of the erroneous views you expressed regarding the traditional African system of servitude prior to the introduction of Arab and western form of slavery. I think you made a mistake that is common with westerners and others, to conflate the two and treat them as the same. The African form of indentured servitude was not permanent and those in its service were not considered to be personal properties. There were family albeit with lower status and one that only lasted as long as their servile engagement lasted or alternately, until they could by luck or cunning gain favorable status in theair new home. It was never as you painted it like a narrative conjured out of the Heart of Darkness.

It is also not true that Africans were constantly engaged in wars with each other and also for slaves. The typical African communities were mostly small then and often unable to wage wars against each other except over disputes that were quickly contained and often involving farmlands. Cannibalism was practiced but their practices were not widespread nor was it seen or considered a standard diet. Where they were practiced, it was mostly for rituals in pagan worships and when done to captive combatants it was to capture their spirits and control that spirit from haunting its killer. There was also the issue of it being used to psychologically intimidate the enemy. Cannibalism never had wide followings in Africa despite how the opposite was depicted in 19th century writings about the continent.

The states that introduced industrial, cruel and dehumanizing slavery to the hinterland were those on the coasts who had contact with western slave traders and on the Tran Saharan trade route that brought in the Arab slave traders. The influence of these two foreign sources, their vital encouragement and active arming of compromised allied kingdoms that expanded the war for slavery in Africa.

There were lots of Africans taken into slavery that constituted the spiritual and intellectual elites of their defeated kingdoms. Some of the contributions of these Africans in slave holding communities in Virginia, Georgia and elsewhere are documented. There were not mostly thieves, vagabonds and ruffians as you noted. The charge that they are is I think recent.

Lastly, I'm still trying to understand what you intended when you wrote something to the effect that carribbeans have a higher standard of living than those they left behind in Africa? Are you suggesting that the tragedy of slavery and its attendant effects is compensated for or minimized by their higher income gap ?

.


Uche Americanus, never mind "Apollonius", he tries things that there is no apology for


Slavery is a LEGAL status .. has nothing to do with standard of living etc

Legally, slaves are "chattel", same are cattle, horses, tables and chairs and other assets

Not expert in that field, but, my understanding is, B4 white man appearance in Africa, had no slavery in the sense that slaves were "chattel" .. Greek, Romans, Arabs, Turks, British and Americans were the ones

AFAIK, Germans did not have "slavery", neither French nor other European nations .. Only Brits had that


.
Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Simple Minded

Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Simple Minded »

Uche Americanus wrote:Hi Apollonius,
I hope life has been good to you? I felt the need to correct some of the erroneous views you expressed regarding the traditional African system of servitude prior to the introduction of Arab and western form of slavery. I think you made a mistake that is common with westerners and others, to conflate the two and treat them as the same. The African form of indentured servitude was not permanent and those in its service were not considered to be personal properties. There were family albeit with lower status and one that only lasted as long as their servile engagement lasted or alternately, until they could by luck or cunning gain favorable status in theair new home. It was never as you painted it like a narrative conjured out of the Heart of Darkness.

It is also not true that Africans were constantly engaged in wars with each other and also for slaves. The typical African communities were mostly small then and often unable to wage wars against each other except over disputes that were quickly contained and often involving farmlands. Cannibalism was practiced but their practices were not widespread nor was it seen or considered a standard diet. Where they were practiced, it was mostly for rituals in pagan worships and when done to captive combatants it was to capture their spirits and control that spirit from haunting its killer. There was also the issue of it being used to psychologically intimidate the enemy. Cannibalism never had wide followings in Africa despite how the opposite was depicted in 19th century writings about the continent.

The states that introduced industrial, cruel and dehumanizing slavery to the hinterland were those on the coasts who had contact with western slave traders and on the Tran Saharan trade route that brought in the Arab slave traders. The influence of these two foreign sources, their vital encouragement and active arming of compromised allied kingdoms that expanded the war for slavery in Africa.

There were lots of Africans taken into slavery that constituted the spiritual and intellectual elites of their defeated kingdoms. Some of the contributions of these Africans in slave holding communities in Virginia, Georgia and elsewhere are documented. There were not mostly thieves, vagabonds and ruffians as you noted. The charge that they are is I think recent.

Lastly, I'm still trying to understand what you intended when you wrote something to the effect that carribbeans have a higher standard of living than those they left behind in Africa? Are you suggesting that the tragedy of slavery and its attendant effects is compensated for or minimized by their higher income gap?
Welcome back Uche!
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Hi Uche!
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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Apollonius
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Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Apollonius »

Hello Uche, and welcome back to the forum! Hope you are well.


Uche Americanus wrote:I hope life has been good to you?

In many ways life has been good to me. I only wish that more people had my good fortune.


The typical African communities were mostly small then and often unable to wage wars against each other except over disputes that were quickly contained and often involving farmlands.


It is true that most African societies were small. However, there are so many exceptions that these become the decisive factor when we are discussing slavery and the slave trade.


Uche Americanus wrote:It is also not true that Africans were constantly engaged in wars with each other and also for slaves.


Not constantly, at least not everywhere. It's hard to generalize about a continent as large as Africa.


However, some generalizations can be made. Virtually all African societies of any sophistication were slave societies, and historically warfare in Africa, as everywhere in the world, was endemic: frequent, and as many studies have by now demonstrated, produced even higher mortality rates than the mechanized warfare of modern centuries.



I think you made a mistake that is common with westerners and others, to conflate the two and treat them as the same. The African form of indentured servitude was not permanent and those in its service were not considered to be personal properties. There were family albeit with lower status and one that only lasted as long as their servile engagement lasted or alternately, until they could by luck or cunning gain favorable status in theair new home. It was never as you painted it like a narrative conjured out of the Heart of Darkness.



There are those who like to make a distinction between "Asian" and "African" systems of slavery:


James L. Watson (Slavery as an institution: Open and closed systems. In Asian and African Systems of Slavery, Oxford,1980) has distinguished two major types of slavery, "open" and "closed". These are ideal types that represent the end points on a continuum. Open systems of slavery (which are common in Africa but found elsewhere as well) are characterized by the gradual absorption of slaves into the kinship and family system of their masters. It may happen that over the lifetime of the slave he or she will gradually be absorbed into the master's family, often as a junior kinsperson. Or it may be that over several generations the slave's descendants are treated more and more like junior kin until they are absorbed into the kin group of the former master as a cadet branch of the kin unit. Closed systems of slavery (which are common in Asia but found elsewhere as well) are characterized by the failure of slaves to be absorbed or adopted into the family or kinship unit of the master. Slaves are excluded from participating in the kin group. The only way out of slavery is by formal emancipation, and even then the slave is not taken into a local kinship unit but remains marked as a former slave or "freedman". Obviously these are extreme cases designed to give definitional clarity to Watson's idea. But as he notes, many actual slave systems did conform very closely to these characterizations.

Watson explains the presence of an open or closed slave system by suggesting that "the differences between the dominant modes of slavery that emerged ... correspond to different concepts of property". He goes on to argue that "the open mode predominated in Africa where land was plentiful and control over people was the main avenue to wealth and power. The closed mode, prevalent in Asia, is clearly a reflection of the high premium place on land, which, in turn, affects attitudes towards outsiders.


-- Leland Donald, Aboriginal Slavery on the Northwest Coast of North America (University of California Press, 1997)


However, in the final analysis, a slave is a slave. Women were always potential concubines. Slaves could always be sold, so that even a "good" master might threaten to sell you to someone who was not so easy going. And it is probably not even true to say that most slaves in Africa were treated better than elsewhere. There were domestic slaves in the Americas whose burdens were light, but when talking about slavery in the Americas it is thought unseemly to even discuss how "good" life was for them. And remember, there were plantations and mines in Africa and these were mostly worked by slaves. Conditions there were typically abysmal.



Uche Americanus wrote:The typical African communities were mostly small then and often unable to wage wars against each other except over disputes that were quickly contained and often involving farmlands. Cannibalism was practiced but their practices were not widespread nor was it seen or considered a standard diet. Where they were practiced, it was mostly for rituals in pagan worships and when done to captive combatants it was to capture their spirits and control that spirit from haunting its killer. There was also the issue of it being used to psychologically intimidate the enemy.


True.


Cannibalism never had wide followings in Africa despite how the opposite was depicted in 19th century writings about the continent.


Depends very much on what you consider wide followings. Most primitive societies everywhere practiced cannibalism in the context of taking on the powers of the individuals eaten. In most cases it had much more to do with religion than diet (or torture or revenge). There were possible exceptions. Many suggest that mass executions in Mexico, notably by the Aztecs, contained a certain dietary rationale, in particular because of the relative lack of animal protein in areas like meso-America where wild game was scarce and domestic animals nearly non existent.


The states that introduced industrial, cruel and dehumanizing slavery to the hinterland were those on the coasts who had contact with western slave traders and on the Tran Saharan trade route that brought in the Arab slave traders. The influence of these two foreign sources, their vital encouragement and active arming of compromised allied kingdoms that expanded the war for slavery in Africa.

I believe I might have quoted this recent book in the 'Slave Trade' thread:

Slavery in Africa took many forms, depending on the needs and occupations of the slave owners, and often the work of slaves was hardly distinguishable from that of free Africans in the society -- those who were serfs, those who labored for wages, or those working on traditional communal lands or pastures. Yet all of these workers had, theoretically, the freedom to walk away, a choice that the slave did not possess except to flee, aware of the retribution that would follow recapture. Slave owners controlled the sexual and reproductive capacities as well as the physical and mental lives of their slaves. Demand, largely regulated by the marketplace, determined the price of slaves. Women and young girls commanded higher prices than men and boys of similar age. The master's right to sexual access drove up the price of female slaves to twice that of males of comparable age. Moreover, a female slave had to have the consent of her master to have a relationship with another, and her children became his property. Bonds of affection could develop between owners and their slaves, but in the end, the master controlled the reward system. In Africa as in the Americas and Asia, the short life span of a slave, largely from overwork, and low birth rate among slave women, who did not wish to bear children that were not to be thier own, constituted the driving force to seek new sources of slaves by warfare, razzia, or trade to replace losses and to increase the slave population.


Of all African slaves, the eunuch was the most highly prized and the most expensive. The demand for eunuchs always exceeded the supply, and consequently their price in the African slave markets could often be ten times that of a female slave. The making of a eunuch by castration has historically been extremely hazardous, with an estimated mortality of 70 to 90 percent, depending on who was doing the operation. In the literature and mythology of the West, the eunuch was the guardian of the ruler's harem, but in fact the primary role of the eunuch was not protecting the concubines but as political advisor to the ruler, whether in the African kingdoms of Asante, Oyo, Dahomey, Bagirimi; the Arab, Turkish, and Persian empires of the Middle East; or the Tang and Ming dynasties of China. The eunuch was the quintessencial slave: He could not pass on life, goods, titles, or functions. He was beholden to no clan, chief, or noble. He remained aloof from the intrigues of imperial courtesans and was not dependent on the supplications of the king's own family and kin.


After eunuchs, women were the most valued slaves, for they could perform more functions than any male. They could cook at the hearth, cultivate and carry, act as concubines and bear children, conduct business, and themselves often dealt in slaves. The average estimated demand for women to men slaves over time and place in Africa was usually two to one, and that was reflected in numbers and price. Female slaves were often purchased for their ability to reproduce, but it could be a bad investment because, as noted earlier, female slaves had few children. In eighteenth-century Cape Town, slave women had only one or at most two children, whereas free women had three or more. In the nineteenth-century Congo and West Africa, slave women had on average less than one child. These examples reflect the sad fact that motherhood was not desirable to female slaves because they knew that their children would be born into a life of slavery.


It was not through procreation but in their agricultural labor that female slaves made their most important contribution to African economies. Women in Africa traditional perform 60 to 70 percent of the agricultural labor and virtually all the housekeeping, but none of the pastoral work. Women have been not just the laborers in the field but also the artisans in intensive crafts such as weaving. The men did the heavy work of clearing and planting, but it was women's work to cultivate the crop, weed, and prepare for harvest. Because women did the agricultural fieldwork in free African socieites, they were expected to do the same as slaves and consequently were worth twice the price in the marketplace. Young girls were frequently used in the form of slavery known as pawning in whch a slave a slave was pawned by a parent or seller to a creditors in return for cash, to be recovered on repayment; this was widely practiced throughout Africa. Young girls were also given to reward soldiers or as booty, payment of fines, and bride-wealth. In some African socieites women were also warriors. There are romantic descriptions of the corps of three thousand Amazons in Dahomey during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries who were celibate female slaves and the loyal bodyguards of the king.


The export trade in slaves was Africa's most dependable commodity, but within the markets of the continent, the slave was the most convertible of all currencies - more so than gold or cowries - and became the essential medium in the transactions of the internal trade. [emphasis added] The buying and selling of slaves was not a male monopoly: female owners and traders in slaves were not uncommon. They were were free women who kept their property separate from that of their men, according to local custom and traditions. The female head of the house dominated and controlled the household slaves. She did not hesitate to exploit female African slaves in pursuit of commercial profit in the marketplace. In many African socieites, particularily in West Africa, there was a long and respected tradition of female mercantile enterprise.


[...]


Ironically, the abolition of the Atlantic slave trade in the nineteenth century produced a dramatic increase in slavery within Africa. When slaves could no longer be exported, the trade expanded into the interior regions of the continent where slaving and slavery had hitherto be of little importance. The Mossi on the Upper Volta River and Luba and the Ovambo in the interior of Angola were now enslaved by African slave trades. No longer exportable, the number of slaves increased, and their masters now feared that the concentration of slaves in their territory, most of whom were men, would overwhelm them in times of trouble. There were slave rebellions in the Futa Jalon, the Niger delta, and among the Yoruba, the suppression of which was perfunctory, but usually attached to a festival, funeral, or a religious rite. The asantehente Kwaku Dua I (1835-67) justified the practice to a missionary: "If I were to abolish human sacrifices, I should deprive myself of one of the most effectual means of keeping the people in subjugation."


Slavery in Africa was a historic and accepted institution, and the number of slaves throughout the millennia undoubtedly surpassed the estimated 16.5 million slaves who were forcefully exported out of Africa between the seventeenth and twentieth centuries to the Americas and Asia.


-- Robert O. Collins, James M. Burns, A History of Sub-Saharan Africa, 2nd ed. (Cambridge University Press, 2007)

The book by Collins and Burns gives figures for the Atlantic, "Asian", i.e., Saharan and Indian Ocean trade, and the internal African slave trade. Most specialists conclude that figures for the Atlantic and "Asian" trade were, over the course of the last one thousand years, roughly equivalent. The intra-African totals are harder to ascertain, however, they were likely at least as high as the export trade. Interestingly, the Dutch got their start in the slave trade by exporting slaves from one part of Africa to another.


There were lots of Africans taken into slavery that constituted the spiritual and intellectual elites of their defeated kingdoms. Some of the contributions of these Africans in slave holding communities in Virginia, Georgia and elsewhere are documented. There were not mostly thieves, vagabonds and ruffians as you noted. The charge that they are is I think recent.


Surely this did happen. But the scenario depicted in Roots was in fact highly exceptional. As always, everywhere, the elites suffered far less than the common people, especially those without relatives willing to pay ransom or their own resources to pay debts. In most societies, in some ways true even today, debt is the prelude to slavery.
Last edited by Apollonius on Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Typhoon
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Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Typhoon »

Pleasure to see you posts again Uche.

______

What we have here is a potential new type of QE.

Everyone prints money and pays reparations to whomever they wronged, real and/or imagined, since the start of recorded civilization.

This way we can all print ourselves rich.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Simple Minded

Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:Pleasure to see you posts again Uche.

______

What we have here is a potential new type of QE.

Everyone prints money and pays reparations to whomever they wronged, real and/or imagined, since the start of recorded civilization.

This way we can all print ourselves rich.
Hmmmm.... I thought that is what "they" have been trying to do for most of the 20th century.
Uche Americanus
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Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Uche Americanus »

Thanks Typhoon.

I do apologize for my long absence. I hope to post more than I had although not as frequent as I would love to.

Uche
Uche Americanus
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Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Uche Americanus »

But where do I go to get my own reparations? Britain is probably too broke to pay me and other claimaints for their past colonialism. Never mind the uphill struggle I will have proving liability.

That said, we must agree, because it is true, that the west got wealthy off the back of the colonized natives. I read somewhere that France took so much out of Haiti that the country practically went to sleep out of exhaustion. And most of the railroads built in Africa, and probably elsewhere during colonial times mostly were for moving resources from the hinterland to the seaports for onward shipment to the Metropolis.

It is sordid. But it is history. And a terrible with some of its consequencesm still around. For example, the natives who took over and to a large extent, those presently in charge, were and are defective products from the "massa's" laboratory.
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Endovelico
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Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Endovelico »

What about paying reparation to the families of all women who have been raped by invading troops, since the Sumerian empire?...
Simple Minded

Re: Caribbean States Call for Slavery Reparations

Post by Simple Minded »

Uche Americanus wrote:But where do I go to get my own reparations? ...... Never mind the uphill struggle I will have proving liability.

It is sordid. But it is history. And a terrible with some of its consequencesm still around......
Brother Uche,

Amen & very well said.

I am sending you a big virtual hug right now!! Not cause yer a victim, cause it is the right thing to do! Can ya feel the love? :)

If that ain't enough, send me your email address via PM, and I'll send you a couple bucks via paypal.

If that ain't enough, have ya heard the word of God lately?

The history of humanity. "We" are all victims of some group called "them." Just depends on the data/variables we either choose to focus upon or ignore.

How to discern?

Those of us of mixed heritage are really confused. Both me and Obama have ancestors that are both victims and oppressors.

This would be a whole lot easier if only the victims and their tormentors of the past were still alive.

Posterity seems to be the newest oppressed class in the West.
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