Alexis wrote:monster_gardener wrote:“Muslim killers off our streets”
Good advice......
If British Intelligence knows certain Muslim creeps are dangerous, get them off the streets permanently. The reports are that Brit Intel was following the perps but evidently not closely enough.
MG, there are at least two major problems with this policy:
- "Muslim killers off our streets": I agree of course, but
why limit it to Muslim killers? Truth is, if a killer is Zoroastrian or Atheist, I want him off the streets nonetheless! It's the "killer" part which is important.
And the way to get killers off the streets is the police/justice system, which is already up and running, and quite efficient I would say, not only in Britain but here in France where a young man who stabbed a soldier in the street (victim survived) several days ago was arrested.
- If you put it on intelligence officers to say which people just
seem to be dangerous and should be deported or imprisoned preventively, you are making them responsible if any person signaled to them and which they chose to let walk free later commits a murder attempt.
You are incentivising them to deport or imprison everybody that does anything even vaguely bizarre or creepy, this without any sense of measure.
The end result will obviously be to attack a whole lot of people who merely hold objectionable views (islamist, racist, neo-fascist, etc.), but are not violent and respect laws, along even with people who are just defending original (therefore seemingly bizarre and dangerous) views... that is what anybody who tries to think by himself!
Imagine e.g. a radical who would want to overhaul human societies by puting everybody on spaceships, arguing that this will make them brethren: isn't that a project aiming at some sort of utopia? Don't we all know how all these utopians turn out, even if at start they look non-violent?
And then my problem is that I enjoy your posts, and I'm not sure you would get access to Internet in prison
This is not BTW to say that none of the most radical Jihadist preachers should be expelled. Anjem Choudary e.g. the British who praised 11/9 attacks and recently expressed pride of his influence on Lee Rigby's murderer has long been banned from entrance on French territory. But banning from entrance or expelling somebody is a heavy tool which should be wielded wisely and used only for the most extreme cases, under judicial supervision.
If they have already committed crimes of this sort, then punish them in a way that the public is assured that they rather than the perps are being protected....
In my view, imprisonment in a Muslim friendly environment at taxpayer expense where the toilets don't face Mecca and where they can proselytize is not an option that will convince the public that they are being protected.
Fail to make the public believe that they are being protected and there is a risk is that more demonstrations, rioting and reprisal will happen.
With all respect, risks are a part of life, MG
If you want to diminish risks, then emigrate to France, or to Britain if you want to save the effort of learning another language. Rate of homicide is less than 1.5 per 100,000 annually for both these countries, compared to 8 per 100,000 for the US. A couple losers using the radical ideology
du jour and perpetrating a couple murders is not going to change statistics...
Anyway, even if you move to a country more secure than the US, you will never be in a riskless situation
Check police reaction in the US (Tsarnaev brothers), in Britain (murder of a soldier) or in France (murder attempt on a soldier)... in each of these cases, police found and incapacitated the perpetrator in a matter of very few days. I say that is
impressive performance. You
are protected.
Thank You VERY MUCH for your reply, Alexis.
First I want to say that I very much enjoy your posts, Alexis and I am honored that you have taken the time to reply to me.
My apologies for the delay in reply.
Imagine e.g. a radical who would want to overhaul human societies by puting everybody on spaceships, arguing that this will make them brethren: isn't that a project aiming at some sort of utopia?
FWIW I do not aim at a utopia/overhauling human nature/societies by putting everybody on spaceships.
I aim at getting a sustainable number of Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey/humans & friends off planet Earth in time to preserve the humorously cute but violently crazy Chaos Ape species in case of the IMHO fairly likely event that the Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey/humans on Earth do something to destroy tech civilization allowing mean green "Mother Nature" to do to them as happened famously to the dinosaurs or maybe even exterminate themselves before Mother Nature does it.
I do NOT count on humans in Space becoming brethren in a brotherly/sisterly love sense very much at all.* That is why I advocate multiple national meteor deflection squads to defend against space rocks doing us like they did the dinosaurs. A single deflection squad would be an invitation to tyranny given the Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey nature of human beings.
You're not speaking of justice. You're speaking of retribution.
There is no reason to punish a murderer differently depending on his stated motivation being "religion", "retribution", "money", "goodness of heart" or "scrapping my buttocks".
Maybe. Retribution is often part of justice.
But IMHO I am speaking of exemplary justice rather than PC accommodation to perps as in the Mecca toilet alignment
example.
One problem dealing with Jihadi perps is that to a large extent they fear not death..
IMVHO punishments that they do fear need to be devised and implemented so as to discourage them during life and perhaps after death.**
Stated motivation of a criminal is just not relevant.
IMVHO sometimes motivation is relevant in a strategic sense. I view Jihadi-Muslim violence much more like pirate raids/traditional unregulated warfare predation against the non Muslim world (Dar al Harb) than ordinary often undirected parasitic crime like armed robbery/felony murder by often stupid criminals let alone crimes of passion like stereotypical murder-suicide.
An ordinary "parasitic" criminal does not usually aim at destroying the host society of which he/she is a part even if part of an organized gang. In some cases such criminals have even been known to ruthlessly defend their host society as the Mob did during WW2 by disrupting German-American Bund meetings and making sure there was no sabotage on the docks of the waterfront.***
IMVHO Jihadi/traditional "Conquer the Word for Allah" Muslims are also somewhat similar to Communist revolutionaries and thus are WORSE than parasites like the Mob and lesser criminals because they aim at destroying the West and other non-Muslim cultures and replacing them with their Evil Control Freak culture.
And the way to get killers off the streets is the police/justice system, which is already up and running, and quite efficient I would say,
You know better than me about France.
IMHO maybe not so here in America/UZ.
Remembering the bumbling of the Boston police dealing with the vile Tsarnev brother, Djokar "The Joker"
. The police shut down the whole city and still couldn't find him till after the curfew was listed and an ordinary citizen noticed that his boat had been tampered with.
I suspect similar in Britain noting that the London Woolwich Jihadi perps WAITED for the police to arrive. I suspect that they wanted to be found and be "martyred"
in a confrontation in which they might kill more infidels and be "marytred" to get their 72 virgins and packs of white raisins
.
Granted that intelligence services often/usually don't get to brag about successes but We Uz seem to depend on luck
Not keeping the Underwear Bomber off a plane even though were warned is just one example.
Our collective Stupidity, Laziness & Lying to ourselves was exposed on 911 (no armed aircraft, mis-communication & that twit Bush W's post 911 Islam's a ROP speech) and exposed again with our Arrogant Lazy Lying Duty Station Deserting Likely Crypto Muslim Son of a Bitch Eater President Obama's administration calling the Fort Hood attack by the traitor and literally card carrying Soldier of Allah Nidal Hasan "Workplace Violence" rather than a Jihadi Muslim attack or even the term "Terrorism".
With all respect, risks are a part of life, MG
Quite True.
But one can try to choose what risks are taken........
IMVHO admitting Jihadi/traditional "Conquer the World for Allah" Muslims especially as immigrants to non Muslim societies without EXTENSIVE Vetting to assure that they will not be problems is an unacceptable risk: Ideally admit only ones like Ayaan Hirsi Ali that have/are trying to break the Malignant Malicious Muslim Meme Control Freak programming.
If they still prove to be Mullah Krekars, denationalize & deport them back to Muslim lands whether or not their Muslim Brothers
in the old country are waiting to do unpleasant things to them.
IMVHO people like Fort Hood Nidal Hasan or the London Woolwich Jihadi Perps, who consider/seem to consider themselves Soldiers of Allah/citizens of the Caliphate/Sharia have effectively renounced their citizenship in whatever non-Muslim land they happen to be in.
This is not BTW to say that none of the most radical Jihadist preachers should be expelled. Anjem Choudary e.g. the British who praised 11/9 attacks and recently expressed pride of his influence on Lee Rigby's murderer has long been banned from entrance on French territory. But banning from entrance or expelling somebody is a heavy tool which should be wielded wisely and used only for the most extreme cases, under judicial supervision.
Seconded but I lack confidence in our mis-Leaders in Uz to do this.
If you want to diminish risks, then emigrate to France, or to Britain if you want to save the effort of learning another language. Rate of homicide is less than 1.5 per 100,000 annually for both these countries, compared to 8 per 100,000 for the US.
Thank you for the kind invitation but I prefer to live in a society where I am still allowed to defend myself with something other than a garden gnome improvised weapon
A woman in her 70s was praised by neighbours yesterday for felling a suspected burglar with a garden gnome.
Jean Collop flung the missile at a man she found clinging to her roof after she was woken in the early hours by the sound of his shoes scraping the tiles.
"I grabbed the first thing I could find, which was the gnome," she said after the ordeal in Wadebridge, Cornwall. "I politely told the man not to move then threw it at him and hit him. He lay down for quite a while and didn't move."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/apr/1 ... dprobation
A couple losers using the radical ideology du jour and perpetrating a couple murders is not going to change statistics...
IMVHO 19 losers on September 11, 2001 did or came damnably close to doing that and worse ........
*It is possible that having a common enemy in the hostile environment of Space might promote some limited amity between Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey/humans in Space. The downside of this is that there might arise a serious division between Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey/humans in Space and Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey/humans remaining on Earth.
Could have bad consequences for Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey/humans on Earth (including me in the unlikely event I survive long enough to see this: too old unless I get a John Glenn exemption): Still better than having all Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey/humans stuck on Earth where doom is virtually guaranteed unless some outside agency like G_d or the Culture intervenes. Remembering IIRC Typhoon's first post in the Astronomy section where civilization/Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey/humans came VERY near being destroyed in the 19th Century by Space rocks.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=69#p772
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/42 ... s-in-1883/
**Not necessarily spectacular death (unless hostages are taken for their release which has been a sometimes effective tactic by Jihadis against Euroz). Could be as simple as simply putting them in a windowless cell for the rest of their lives with nothing other than a waste disposal facility & feeding/watering ports.
*** In the past, efforts were made to harness such ordinary non ideological criminals in service to society such as giving a young criminal the option to join the Army/Navy.
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light