How a rebel psychologist challenged one of the 20th century’s biggest—and most dangerous—ideas
The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
The man who destroyed America’s ego
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
Good article, Typhoon. Thanks for posting that.
The value of our lives depends entirely on the quality and depth of our relationships with others, not on what we happen to think or believe about ourselves. One thing the article did not address is the danger of shared identifications of esteem promoting a communal exceptionalism to any value other than those that elevate the group. If the possibility for serious critique of shared assumptions becomes impossible, human relations become vapid and meaningless, and morality becomes hollow and self-serving. Such a community is a danger to themselves and to the world.
Self-esteem and human potential movements were a natural extension of a humanism that has degenerated into a hollow materialism, a “freedom” from shared obligations both social and religious. Try as we might, we and our "autonomy" cannot be the center of the world in spite of being supported by our thin legalisms and feel good empiricisms. In my travels and work in Africa, there is admiration and concern for what we call "freedom" from the people there. We have freedoms and powers over our lives beyond what many in the world have experienced, but we lack the faith, depth, and wisdom to have any idea of what to do with them. We are like Dr. Faustus in Marlowe's play, where Faustus's pact with the devil provided him unimaginable powers, but he never understood what to do with them other than conjuring tricks for kings and noblemen and takes a strange delight in using his magic to play practical jokes on simple folks.
In spite of Baumeister’s critique, the exaltation of self-esteem remains too intoxicating in our culture and remains very much alive in while in various guises, political, religious, and social. It will only be pried apart by the pitiless crowbar of events in time. Narcissism does not die an easy death. What will happen after that is unknowable.
The value of our lives depends entirely on the quality and depth of our relationships with others, not on what we happen to think or believe about ourselves. One thing the article did not address is the danger of shared identifications of esteem promoting a communal exceptionalism to any value other than those that elevate the group. If the possibility for serious critique of shared assumptions becomes impossible, human relations become vapid and meaningless, and morality becomes hollow and self-serving. Such a community is a danger to themselves and to the world.
Self-esteem and human potential movements were a natural extension of a humanism that has degenerated into a hollow materialism, a “freedom” from shared obligations both social and religious. Try as we might, we and our "autonomy" cannot be the center of the world in spite of being supported by our thin legalisms and feel good empiricisms. In my travels and work in Africa, there is admiration and concern for what we call "freedom" from the people there. We have freedoms and powers over our lives beyond what many in the world have experienced, but we lack the faith, depth, and wisdom to have any idea of what to do with them. We are like Dr. Faustus in Marlowe's play, where Faustus's pact with the devil provided him unimaginable powers, but he never understood what to do with them other than conjuring tricks for kings and noblemen and takes a strange delight in using his magic to play practical jokes on simple folks.
In spite of Baumeister’s critique, the exaltation of self-esteem remains too intoxicating in our culture and remains very much alive in while in various guises, political, religious, and social. It will only be pried apart by the pitiless crowbar of events in time. Narcissism does not die an easy death. What will happen after that is unknowable.
- Nonc Hilaire
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Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
This self esteem stuff came from educators, not psychologists. Teachers who burnt out in the classroom and then went to grad school so they would not have to actually deal with the little monsters anymore.
Rogers work was brilliant and is still the basis of counseling seventy years later. It is a method for counseling people with problems. Maintenence and repair; not construction. Some educator got a smattering of Rogers and than went marching off in the wrong direction.
Rogers work was brilliant and is still the basis of counseling seventy years later. It is a method for counseling people with problems. Maintenence and repair; not construction. Some educator got a smattering of Rogers and than went marching off in the wrong direction.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
Nice read. It seems to me that all types of excessive attention and overdosed-value given to the individual tend to limit or create problems that would otherwise be mild or non-existent.
The continuous "I am wonderful and very important even without an effort" feeds hollow narcissism, but so does the "I am a selfish sinner, always falling short, in deficit in the face of the perfect divine." Two sides of the same pancake.
The continuous "I am wonderful and very important even without an effort" feeds hollow narcissism, but so does the "I am a selfish sinner, always falling short, in deficit in the face of the perfect divine." Two sides of the same pancake.
Deep down I'm very superficial
- NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
As certain feminists have rather perceptively pointed out; sometime in the 19th century, there was a definitive, revolutionary shift in conceptualizing an individual's virtue as conterminous with self-esteem. They attribute this to the period of revolutions which delineated the republican man as one whose very nature manifested virtue only in the most public actions and forums. The attitude was that a man could express courage, constancy et al. when the nation needed saving; but one couldn't or shouldn't expect such accounts in their private lives; even if displayed, nothing could be conceptualized or explicated from these instances.
Of course, virtues in private lives (as imagined) were ones more concerned with domesticity and "women's work" and should be no concern of men as men. To paraphrase, "Through the Reading Glass: Women, Books, and Sex Through the French Revolution" by Suellen Diaconoff, the general impression of women about the Revolution was negative. Whereas the old regime merely lowered them in the hierarchy, the new regime all but shut them out of any actual participation or role in society. Diaconoff suggests that a majority of these women, marginalized, clung to the more reactionary parties and institutions as a result- especially the religious institutions, which were buttressed by those who felt disenfranchised by the new order. It was this alliance, according to her, that revolutionized how we think of virtue and self-esteem.
The 20th century, in those disciplines even loosely concerned with concepts like virtue and esteem, is merely commentary, cogitation, implication and explication of an event that happened the previous century.
Which is why, it should be no surprise that as women have integrated more and more in previously "off-limit" areas of social life; we see the "self-esteem movement" dissipating.
Of course, virtues in private lives (as imagined) were ones more concerned with domesticity and "women's work" and should be no concern of men as men. To paraphrase, "Through the Reading Glass: Women, Books, and Sex Through the French Revolution" by Suellen Diaconoff, the general impression of women about the Revolution was negative. Whereas the old regime merely lowered them in the hierarchy, the new regime all but shut them out of any actual participation or role in society. Diaconoff suggests that a majority of these women, marginalized, clung to the more reactionary parties and institutions as a result- especially the religious institutions, which were buttressed by those who felt disenfranchised by the new order. It was this alliance, according to her, that revolutionized how we think of virtue and self-esteem.
The 20th century, in those disciplines even loosely concerned with concepts like virtue and esteem, is merely commentary, cogitation, implication and explication of an event that happened the previous century.
Which is why, it should be no surprise that as women have integrated more and more in previously "off-limit" areas of social life; we see the "self-esteem movement" dissipating.
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
their appears to be a small disconnect in reality between feeling confident in oneself versus expecting everyone else to treat you like a god.
the fundie self esteemers seem to really struggle with that particular aspect of things.
the fundie self esteemers seem to really struggle with that particular aspect of things.
ultracrepidarian
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
Now that you mention it, I have been meaning to talk to everyone on the planet about the lack of respect and admiration they often fail to bestow upon me......noddy wrote:their appears to be a small disconnect in reality between feeling confident in oneself versus expecting everyone else to treat you like a god.
I can only conclude that everyone on Earth is RACIST!noddy wrote: the fundie self esteemers seem to really struggle with that particular aspect of things.
Or maybe worse: SELFISH!
The science is settled!
Abandon your sense of self and worship me as the central point of your existence! Please! Please! Please!
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
its an ongoing problem, women especially dont treat me like the king god i am, its all blah blah reciprocation blah.
ultracrepidarian
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
I feel your pain Bro. That really sucks! Those selfish bitches!noddy wrote:its an ongoing problem, women especially dont treat me like the king god i am, its all blah blah reciprocation blah.
But hey, enough about you..... let's talk about me!
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
IF you want to see proof of the *belief* of that just go to a little league baseball game and watch the parents.“Self-esteem is the likeliest candidate for a social vaccine, something that empowers us to live responsibly and that inoculates us against the lures of crime, violence, substance abuse, teen pregnancy, child abuse, chronic welfare dependency and educational failure. The lack of self-esteem is central to most personal and social ills plaguing our state and nation as we approach the end of the 20th century.”
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
- Nonc Hilaire
- Posts: 6259
- Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
That sounds about right.Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
Bingo! Now we are making some progress! The root cause of all self-esteem issues (high, low, inflated, unrealistic, etc.) is parents.Doc wrote:IF you want to see proof of the *belief* of that just go to a little league baseball game and watch the parents.“Self-esteem is the likeliest candidate for a social vaccine, something that empowers us to live responsibly and that inoculates us against the lures of crime, violence, substance abuse, teen pregnancy, child abuse, chronic welfare dependency and educational failure. The lack of self-esteem is central to most personal and social ills plaguing our state and nation as we approach the end of the 20th century.”
Their kids are so "special," "cute," "smart," "talented," etc. Spending more money on their own kids than they do on other people's kids. Trying to give their own kids advantages over other kids.
Some sort of pre-natal education or indoctrination camps for expecting parents would be useful to create universal, acceptable standards of parenting in regards to developing the child's sense of self.
It could be marketed under the banner of "Let's do it for the common good!" or "Let's do it for the children!"
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
I would re-phrase your second sentence to read: "Realistic self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept." I've met a more than a few who are totally incompetent and devoid of knowledge, yet very confident.Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.
The third sentence is an excellent summation of the problem!
- Nonc Hilaire
- Posts: 6259
- Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
Your rephrasing is a tautology. Self esteem comes from a congruence of self-perception and the idealized self. It is a function of how well one feels they have lived up to the values and mores of the people who they self-elected as role models.Simple Minded wrote:I would re-phrase your second sentence to read: "Realistic self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept." I've met a more than a few who are totally incompetent and devoid of knowledge, yet very confident.Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.
The third sentence is an excellent summation of the problem!
A confident person who is incompetent and ignorant usually has accompanying anxiety, and has developed various coping mechanisms: denial, projection, reaction formation, etc. One can appear to be confident but still feel inadequate, and this is very common. Especially with politicians and used car salesmen.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
- NapLajoieonSteroids
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- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:04 pm
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
One could also down a jar of pills to make those anxious feelings meaningless.Nonc Hilaire wrote:Your rephrasing is a tautology. Self esteem comes from a congruence of self-perception and the idealized self. It is a function of how well one feels they have lived up to the values and mores of the people who they self-elected as role models.Simple Minded wrote:I would re-phrase your second sentence to read: "Realistic self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept." I've met a more than a few who are totally incompetent and devoid of knowledge, yet very confident.Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.
The third sentence is an excellent summation of the problem!
A confident person who is incompetent and ignorant usually has accompanying anxiety, and has developed various coping mechanisms: denial, projection, reaction formation, etc. One can appear to be confident but still feel inadequate, and this is very common. Especially with politicians and used car salesmen.
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
If ya can't make denial, ignorance, or faith in God or Karma work for ya, I really don't think those pills will help.NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:One could also down a jar of pills to make those anxious feelings meaningless.Nonc Hilaire wrote:Your rephrasing is a tautology. Self esteem comes from a congruence of self-perception and the idealized self. It is a function of how well one feels they have lived up to the values and mores of the people who they self-elected as role models.Simple Minded wrote:I would re-phrase your second sentence to read: "Realistic self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept." I've met a more than a few who are totally incompetent and devoid of knowledge, yet very confident.Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.
The third sentence is an excellent summation of the problem!
A confident person who is incompetent and ignorant usually has accompanying anxiety, and has developed various coping mechanisms: denial, projection, reaction formation, etc. One can appear to be confident but still feel inadequate, and this is very common. Especially with politicians and used car salesmen.
Personally, I recommend bottles of Dr. Feelgood. This week only, regular OTNOT posters, qualify for the special reduced rate.
Our motto is "Life is better when you feel good."
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
wow! It also appears self-esteem is affected by what other people post on the internet.Nonc Hilaire wrote:Your rephrasing is a tautology. Self esteem comes from a congruence of self-perception and the idealized self. It is a function of how well one feels they have lived up to the values and mores of the people who they self-elected as role models.Simple Minded wrote:I would re-phrase your second sentence to read: "Realistic self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept." I've met a more than a few who are totally incompetent and devoid of knowledge, yet very confident.Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.
The third sentence is an excellent summation of the problem!
A confident person who is incompetent and ignorant usually has accompanying anxiety, and has developed various coping mechanisms: denial, projection, reaction formation, etc. One can appear to be confident but still feel inadequate, and this is very common. Especially with politicians and used car salesmen.
Who knew?
Some days the self-esteem movement rises, some days it falls.
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
are you implying that Big Pharma is behind the death of the self-esteem movement?NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
One could also down a jar of pills to make those anxious feelings meaningless.
makes sense.
lower self-esteem could also be a result of AGW!
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
I was waiting for my PornHub Video to Buffer and i noticed an Advert:
"Desperate Girls Willing To F-ck Anyone, Even You!"
Hey, that sh!t is not good for my Low Self Esteem, people. Have a little sensitivity, will ya?.
"Desperate Girls Willing To F-ck Anyone, Even You!"
Hey, that sh!t is not good for my Low Self Esteem, people. Have a little sensitivity, will ya?.
- Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
- Nonc Hilaire
- Posts: 6259
- Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
- NapLajoieonSteroids
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- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:04 pm
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
You're gonna get all uppity now? We better get you some pills.Simple Minded wrote:are you implying that Big Pharma is behind the death of the self-esteem movement?NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
One could also down a jar of pills to make those anxious feelings meaningless.
makes sense.
lower self-esteem could also be a result of AGW!
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
its that darned frontal lobe giving him the issues, a small incision with a drill by a trained professional should relieve the worst of it.
the sideeffect of a small amount of drooling is a small price to pay.
the sideeffect of a small amount of drooling is a small price to pay.
ultracrepidarian
Re: The Rise and Fall(?) of the Self Esteem Movement
Kmitch,kmich wrote:I was waiting for my PornHub Video to Buffer and i noticed an Advert:
"Desperate Girls Willing To F-ck Anyone, Even You!"
Hey, that sh!t is not good for my Low Self Esteem, people. Have a little sensitivity, will ya?.
My prescription is "Physician, heal thyself!"
Don't play coy... Yeah, you know what I mean.
Few, if any, are interested in the rise and fall of your self-esteem!
Last edited by Simple Minded on Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.